Why John Williams might be as good as the most enthusiastic fanboy says

[publicist 4,643]

Anyway, I edited in the quote part. Don't you just hate it when that happens?

No, drunk russians need every click they can get.

KM's comment is so depressing because he COULD listen to all the riches in music history but feeds on this steady diet of Hollywood scores of the 70's and 80's - which, for all their qualities, are just a wee dot on the musical landscape.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Ren 75]

....... in music history but feeds on this steady diet of Hollywood scores of the 70's and 80's - which, for all their qualities, are just a wee dot on the musical landscape.

especially strong showing for spaghetti westerns

[Salacius 7]

.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

king mark, on 10 July 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Well, his music contains moments of extraordinary beauty that no other composer can match, including all the dead classical ones

uhhhhhhh, wow.

Can I just say, "Respighi, Pines of Rome" Orff "Ave Formossissima"

Meh, I can name at least 20 better pieces by Willams than those two.

KM FTW!!

[Wojo 2,453]

Better because you like them more or because the "Big Book of Undeniable Musical Truths and Facts" said so?

[publicist 4,643]

No, because his tastes are just as frugal.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Better because you like them more or because the "Big Book of Undeniable Musical Truths and Facts" said so?

Of course because I like them more. I think there should be nothing wrong with that.

And I do not own BBUMT&F yet. Always wanted though.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Ren 75]

Better because you like them more or because the "Big Book of Undeniable Musical Truths and Facts" said so?

Exactly Wojo. Facepalm

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

:shakehead:

IMHO!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

so basically the late Rodney King said it better than Indy 4 ever could, Can't we all just get along?

I love John Williams, and I think/KNOW he's the best. However it still comes down to this, if all of his music is great, then none of it is great. It's all the same. So I modify the late Rodney King's statement, Can't we all just sit on the fence?

And I must ask Richard Penna, if Star Wars is great, and it does nothing emotionally for you, then why is Star Wars great?

All of John's music affects my emotions in one way or another, every bit of it. That doesn't mean it's all positive. Some excites me, some saddens me, some makes me wonder why, some even angers and disappoints. That's why I have favorites, that's part of how I know some pieces are better than others.

[Wojo 2,453]

I've found that shock therapy affects all my emotions in one way or another, every bit of it. That doesn't mean it's all negative.

Well, on one hand, it's positive, and it's negative on the other.

[KK 3,307]

Well, his music contains moments of extraordinary beauty that no other composer can match, including all the dead classical ones

This opening opinion is pure blind fanboy arrogance -- which naturally gets a thumbs up across the board from the other fanboys -- but it nullifies any objectivity you tried to maintain for the rest of your argument. #1, you don't listen to enough dead classical composers to make this statement, and #2, only a little man makes himself feel better by raising Williams up by putting his predecessors and contemporaries down. Which is all the rest of your argument does.

If putting Williams on the top pedestal as the bestest music maker in all of history makes you feel better, go for it, but it's a crock of shit, really. Williams never asked for any of this blind fanboy devotion or intended for his "art" to be a competitive activity that would have people rating him superior than any artist that came before -- artists whose shoulders he stood atop in order to satisfy the emotional needs of a frikking movie -- yet you feel obligated to give it as if the sun won't shine or the crops won't grow unless you provide your love, faith, devotion, and undying loyalty.

Ya, that was a pretty ignorant comment. I "liked" the post because of the mention of Williams' masterful understanding of the scenes he scores. But comments like that opening one is blind ignorance indeed.

For example, I'll repeat for the record that I think Williams' ambient music is not his strong point. I can think of at least 3 current working composers whose lower-key material is far, far more interesting to me than JW's. If I compare The Greenhouse Effect and a key cue from Hirshfelder's Sanctum score, the latter is a tense, inventive cue to me, and the former is just boring. I think I can reflect some others' opinions that a lot of the lower-key material in KotCS is pretty boring, and I've heard material from other composers that suggests to me they would have made those scenes more interesting.

Have you heard Williams' score for Presumed Innocent? I think that was some masterfully crafted ambience.

[Richard Penna 3,686]

And I must ask Richard Penna, if Star Wars is great, and it does nothing emotionally for you, then why is Star Wars great?

Same reason most people consider Schindler's List great. I recognise that it is well-composed music and technically excellent, but on an emotional level, it doesn't do anything for me.

If even if music is complex and shows a better understanding of the orchestra than any composer in history, as KM claims (seriously, are you just taking the piss now Mark?), if there's no emotional resonance, what's the point?

Obviously Star Wars isn't the example to use for that point - KotCS is a better one I think. There are loads of moments in that which are good technically, but not particularly remarkable for me. Does KM genuinely think that no other composer who gave some of the duller scenes a shot, could possibly write anything more interesting? That's just plain rubbish.

[indy4 155]

That's not quite what I'm saying. I'm saying that because he's highly trained, etc., then it's very possible that all of his works will be good. That doesn't mean it's necessarily true. My beef is that I see member A talking down to member B because member B seems to like everything Williams composes. Member A's implied argument is that JW's works can't all be good--there has to be at least a couple stinkers, and the person that's able to recognize and admit the most amount of stinkers has the strongest sense of taste and/or lack of bias. I'm just saying that this doesn't have to be true--there doesn't have to be any stinkers given Williams' extraordinary credentials--and would make sense if all or most of JW's works were good, regardless of whether they actually are.

What you really want to say is 'i have scientific proof that my favourite composer is a genius (hence, all of his output)'. We've gone through this before and it really doesn't matter...i just find it a bit laborious to invest yourself in every 20-second-bridging cue with wide-eyed amazement at the musical genius at work. Is it really necessary?

No publicist, that's not what I'm saying at all. I would ask you to read my first and second post before you try to condense my point into a sentence-long blip. You could also read the following response to Josh's post, where I explain yet again my point.

The thing is, John Williams is good. He's been musically trained for 70+ years, and has studied at some of the best schools in the world and with some of the best teachers in the world. He's had tons of experience performing, arranging and conducting, and all of these skills have contributed towards his composing abilities. He's very selective about selecting projects that he feels will give him artistic freedom and/or inspiration. And the projects he accepts are big deals--he knows a lot of people are going to be listening to his works, often times hundreds of millions. Even his concert works are performed by some of the greatest orchestras/conductors in the world and at some of the greatest venues in the world. He's going to be putting in a good deal of effort into his scores. So it makes sense that a vast majority of his works--maybe even all past a certain point--would be good, even great.

No. This paragraph does not make sense.

He is great, sure, but not for the reasons you stated...

Josh, I don't think you understand what I'm saying either. The point of this post is not to say "John Williams is great." It's to say he has many of the tools to achieve greatness on a consistent basis, which means we shouldn't be expecting him to fail in certain instances just because...well he has to fail at least a few times! If he does fail then that's fine, feel free to voice your dislike for a particular work or group of works JW composed. But don't set a quota on the amount of JW works you shouldn't like, and don't invalidate others' opinions because they refuse to set that same quota.

Why would that necessarily cheapen it?

Well, besides of creating a certain predictable sound, one typical aspect of a Hollywood score is the Mickey Mousing approach, where the music mirrors the action seen on the screen. It's then when the music often becomes more obsolete rather than adding anything, IMO. This is often annoying when watching a film but it usually doesn't lead to music that is interesting to listen to on its own, outside a few exceptions, of course like Indy's First Adventure. One of the major reasons why the first Star Wars score is so great is that when you listen to it, it's feels like music is written separately from the movie, as if it was meant to stand on its own. It's like Lucas selected existing classical music tracks (like Kubrick did with 2001: A Space Odyssey) and placed it over the images.

Alex

I tend to agree with you that when listening to a film score outside of the film, the best ones are those that sound like they weren't written to sync up with the film. But while watching the film I don't think getting the sense that it was written for the film specifically is necessarily a bad thing, often times it's a good thing. Even the mickey-mousing bits can make for enjoyable listening experiences. For instance, in KotCS' "Whirl Through Academe," there's a ton of mickey-mousing. But when isolated from the film, the trumpet blasts that accompany each punch makes musical sense, largely because unexpected and inconsistent trumpet hits have been a part of the score since "The Adventure of Mutt" (a concert piece). It feels like a natural extension.

Hmmm, well, I can see why my statement earlier may be taken as a jab against other composers, but again, I really meant to disrespect, and there's no need to be offended. Like I said, I was just expressing my own personal opinion (this is what I think), explaining why I admire JW, like many others have done before and after me: Indy4, Maurizio, KM etc.

No Josh, I agree with Alice on this one. You can't know what goes into a composer's head when he first reacts to a film, you can only know the final product. But the point of this thread is not to compare composers anyways.

I love John Williams, and I think/KNOW he's the best. However it still comes down to this, if all of his music is great, then none of it is great. It's all the same. So I modify the late Rodney King's statement, Can't we all just sit on the fence?

See, that's what I'm talking about. Why can't all of it be great? That doesn't mean I'm asking you to admit that you really love your most hated JW score--I'm sure some of your dislikes are completely genuine--but it seems to me that you've convinced yourself that you HAVE to dislike a certain amount of JW scores in order to validate the rest. Why is that the case? (And to clarify, if they're all great, it doesn't mean they're all equally great.)

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Why did you even bothered, Indy4. This place makes me sick.

[King Mark 3,631]

Well, take note it's always Wojo that steps in saying JW is overrated, KM is a fanboy and only listens to JW, the Star Wars OT music is boring, LotR is the epitome of film music and Williams never wrote anything as good, and this and that... It makes you wonder if he's even a fan at all

I grew up in a house where classical music played all the time, so I've heard plenty of it and I like film music better. And in film music I listen to plenty of composers and none of them have the same magic as JW.

[Wojo 2,453]

You know what, I don't care. I did say John Williams was overrated. Probably not in so many words, but when you translate it into Kanadian, that's what you read.

Nope, I'm not really a fan anymore, and haven't been since the late 90s. The man got me into film scoring, but if it wasn't for all the other composers that I've been introduced to, I would have abandoned the genre a long time ago. I'm ready to throw all my John Williams CDs away because I dislike him now so much, thanks to your infantile phallic waving.

The Star Wars PT is boring but not the OT, and yes, LotR IS the epitome of film scoring, and no, nothing Williams ever wrote for a four-eyed wizard came close in depth or scope. Magic is a totally personal experience and is not universally quantifiable, and to read you insulting the dead classical composers was so disgraceful, I couldn't keep my fingers still.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I love John Williams, and I think/KNOW he's the best. However it still comes down to this, if all of his music is great, then none of it is great. It's all the same. So I modify the late Rodney King's statement, Can't we all just sit on the fence?

See, that's what I'm talking about. Why can't all of it be great? That doesn't mean I'm asking you to admit that you really love your most hated JW score--I'm sure some of your dislikes are completely genuine--but it seems to me that you've convinced yourself that you HAVE to dislike a certain amount of JW scores in order to validate the rest. Why is that the case? (And to clarify, if they're all great, it doesn't mean they're all equally great.)

Unlike you I do not believe everything can be great. Potatoes are great, but not all potato dishes are great. Movies are great but not all movies are great. John Williams music is great, but not all John Williams music is great. I see a tiny bit of understanding from you what I'm getting at,

it doesn't mean they're all equally great

. There is a ying and yang to everything, but you leave little room for it. Banning Back Home is a cue I find interesting among a score I do not like. Many people find it to be elevator music. Same for the jazzy cues in Earthquake and the Towering Inferno. Very few here would attempt to call those piece great but in your terms they are great. What about Lapti Nek? It's great, right.

It's not degrees of great, it's degrees of quality that even for John range from bad, mediocre, weak, all the way to great, what ever I might call it, or great, great, great, and great, all the way to great, what ever you might call it. But Lapti Nek is every bit as great as the Imperial March, or Asteroid Field, or Ben Death and Tie Fighter Attack right?

[Wojo 2,453]

Wasn't Lapti Nek composed by John Williams' son?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I thought the music was John's and the lyrics his sons.

[King Mark 3,631]

You know what, I don't care. I did say John Williams was overrated. Probably not in so many words, but when you translate it into Kanadian, that's what you read.

Nope, I'm not really a fan anymore, and haven't been since the late 90s. The man got me into film scoring, but if it wasn't for all the other composers that I've been introduced to, I would have abandoned the genre a long time ago. I'm ready to throw all my John Williams CDs away because I dislike him now so much, thanks to your infantile phallic waving.

The Star Wars PT is boring but not the OT, and yes, LotR IS the epitome of film scoring, and no, nothing Williams ever wrote for a four-eyed wizard came close in depth or scope. Magic is a totally personal experience and is not universally quantifiable, and to read you insulting the dead classical composers was so disgraceful, I couldn't keep my fingers still.

Some of this is signature worthy

[Wojo 2,453]

I thought the music was John's and the lyrics his sons.

You may be right.

~*~

KM, do what feels magical.

[indy4 155]

I love John Williams, and I think/KNOW he's the best. However it still comes down to this, if all of his music is great, then none of it is great. It's all the same. So I modify the late Rodney King's statement, Can't we all just sit on the fence?

See, that's what I'm talking about. Why can't all of it be great? That doesn't mean I'm asking you to admit that you really love your most hated JW score--I'm sure some of your dislikes are completely genuine--but it seems to me that you've convinced yourself that you HAVE to dislike a certain amount of JW scores in order to validate the rest. Why is that the case? (And to clarify, if they're all great, it doesn't mean they're all equally great.)

Unlike you I do not believe everything can be great. Potatoes are great, but not all potato dishes are great. Movies are great but not all movies are great. John Williams music is great, but not all John Williams music is great. I see a tiny bit of understanding from you what I'm getting at,

it doesn't mean they're all equally great

. There is a ying and yang to everything, but you leave little room for it. Banning Back Home is a cue I find interesting among a score I do not like. Many people find it to be elevator music. Same for the jazzy cues in Earthquake and the Towering Inferno. Very few here would attempt to call those piece great but in your terms they are great. What about Lapti Nek? It's great, right.

It's not degrees of great, it's degrees of quality that even for John range from bad, mediocre, weak, all the way to great, what ever I might call it, or great, great, great, and great, all the way to great, what ever you might call it. But Lapti Nek is every bit as great as the Imperial March, or Asteroid Field, or Ben Death and Tie Fighter Attack right?

Again, I'm not saying everything Williams write is great. I'm just saying you seem to be approaching it from the mindset that you HAVE to find scores he wrote that aren't good in order to validate your opinion and/or validate the rest of his works, and I don't think that's true. I think you should like what you like and dislike what you dislike (and everything in between), rather than saying "I'm only allowed to like x amount of JW scores, so once I find x scores that I like the rest have to be bad."

[Richard Penna 3,686]

You know what, I don't care. I did say John Williams was overrated. Probably not in so many words, but when you translate it into Kanadian, that's what you read.

Nope, I'm not really a fan anymore, and haven't been since the late 90s. The man got me into film scoring, but if it wasn't for all the other composers that I've been introduced to, I would have abandoned the genre a long time ago. I'm ready to throw all my John Williams CDs away because I dislike him now so much, thanks to your infantile phallic waving.

The Star Wars PT is boring but not the OT, and yes, LotR IS the epitome of film scoring, and no, nothing Williams ever wrote for a four-eyed wizard came close in depth or scope. Magic is a totally personal experience and is not universally quantifiable, and to read you insulting the dead classical composers was so disgraceful, I couldn't keep my fingers still.

Some of this is signature worthy

Wait, that ramble was serious?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

No I don't have to find score to validate my opinion, my opinion is based on the quality of the scores. Again John Williams music is great, but not all John Williams scores are great.

I think your hypothosis that people are only allowed to like X amounts of scores is bizarre and quite ignorant of other people's beliefs. To really appreciate happiness one must experience sorrow. The same is true for John's best and least works.

I know for myself I give each JW score it's own chance, which is often easy to do. Rarely must I judge two JW scores at the same time like War Horse and TinTin.

[indy4 155]

No I don't have to find score to validate my opinion, my opinion is based on the quality of the scores. Again John Williams music is great, but not all John Williams scores are great.

I think your hypothosis that people are only allowed to like X amounts of scores is bizarre and quite ignorant of other people's beliefs. To really appreciate happiness one must experience sorrow. The same is true for John's best and least works.

I know for myself I give each JW score it's own chance, which is often easy to do. Rarely must I just two JW scores at the same time like War Horse and TinTin.

Maybe I'm wrong, but my hypothesis was based off comments like yours ("if all his music is great, then none of it is great")and the sense of condescension that is aimed towards those that enthusiastically enjoy most of JW's works.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I enjoy most of his works.

do you think I don't.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Morricone's better anyways.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

edit; nevermind

[indy4 155]

I enjoy most of his works.

do you think I don't.

No, I just thought that perhaps a part of you sought a certain amount of Williams scores to dislike in order to validate the others.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

who the hell would do that.

statistically I prefer 53.4 % of John Williams score. Numerologically 53.4 % is an ideal number, first it's an even number, which are always good, but secondly it leaves 46.6% of John Williams scores that I don't like. As you know 46.6% is also an even number.

5+3+4=12 which is an even number

4+6+6=16 which is also an even number. Even numbers being good, odd numbers are bad.

12 + 16 +1 + 2 + 1+ 6 = 38 which is ironically the actual number of John Williams scores I prefer.

I cannot discuss the number of John Williams I don't prefer because that number is odd and as you know odd numbers are bad.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Williams is bad.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Yep, that's actually what we were missing here.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Yep, that's actually what we were missing here.

Anyone who is serious about film music knows that Williams's maudlin impulses have been nothing but destructive. Emotion should be organically elicited, not synthetically imposed.

[wanner251 17]

Is there anyone here who thinks that John Williams is NOT brilliant?

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Yep, that's actually what we were missing here.

Anyone who is serious about film music knows that Williams's maudlin impulses have been nothing but destructive. Emotion should be organically elicited, not synthetically imposed.

Well nobody should be serious about film music. This favorite composer of mine just happens to write for films. 97 % of film music is crap.

And what you say about emotion is crap. I don't know if it's sarcasm. Difficult concept.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Art should be about truth. To the extent that Williams shades it, diminishes it, softens it -- or worse, garishly embellishes it -- he abdicates his responsibility as an artist. To listen to his music is to risk one's humanity. That's what's at stake here.

[Brónach 1,302]

and yes, LotR IS the epitome of film scoring,

Pffff.

Morricone's better anyways.

I like Morricone, mostly his epic material. He and JW were my firsts, I remember my first film music CD ever was a Morricone CD I got for Christmas. If I were to select an epitome of film scoring, I would prefer a Morricone over LOTR, it would feel more illustrative for me.

He sometimes makes me cringe though, as if he diluted the emotion of the melody (this is mostly in his string writing and some whimsical stuff, I need to ponder about this.) I connect with JW more on a basic level.

[Hlao-roo 389]

Yep, that's actually what we were missing here.

Anyone who is serious about film music knows that Williams's maudlin impulses have been nothing but destructive. Emotion should be organically elicited, not synthetically imposed.

Well nobody should be serious about film music. This favorite composer of mine just happens to write for films. 97 % of film music is crap.

And what you say about emotion is crap. I don't know if it's sarcasm. Difficult concept.

"I have no tolerance for the critics who put down film music. The film composer today functions in much the same way as did Mozart, Haydn, and Bach with their weekly commitments to the church or their patrons, except that we haven't yet produced a Mozart, a Haydn, or a Bach. But it can happen. Just because one is composing for films doesn't mean that one has to write inferior or unimportant music. The possibility exists for excellent work, which is something our lofty music critics apparently don't even want to admit. But I consider my own efforts in film composition to be serious, and I encourage other composers to take the medium seriously."

- Jerry Goldsmith

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Morricone's better anyways.

He can suck it.

No one can do what John Williams does. I'm out of my mind, that's certainly a fact, but it's also a fact that you should be able to get off to the Amblin Entertainment logo. 10 seconds or whatever it is. Should be about all you need. If you don't understand why Williams is great after that, you never will.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Just because one is composing for films doesn't mean that one has to write inferior or unimportant music.

Yeah but 97% of them are doing just that, writing inferior and unimportant music.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Morricone's better anyways.

He can suck it.

No one can do what John Williams does. I'm out of my mind, that's certainly a fact, but it's also a fact that you should be able to get off to the Amblin Entertainment logo. 10 seconds or whatever it is. Should be about all you need. If you don't understand why Williams is great after that, you never will.

The Amblin logo is Williams' crowning achievement? If that's all I need, then Zimmer is a thousand times better.

[Hlao-roo 389]

You should be able to get off to the Amblin Entertainment logo. 10 seconds or whatever it is. Should be about all you need.

Wow, never tried that before..

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Amblin logo is Williams' crowning achievement? If that's all I need, then Zimmer is a thousand times better.

Well no, his crowning achievement is obviously Cinderella Liberty.

[Brónach 1,302]

Morricone's better anyways.

He can suck it.

No one can do what John Williams does. I'm out of my mind, that's certainly a fact, but it's also a fact that you should be able to get off to the Amblin Entertainment logo. 10 seconds or whatever it is. Should be about all you need. If you don't understand why Williams is great after that, you never will.

The Amblin logo is Williams' crowning achievement? If that's all I need, then Zimmer is a thousand times better.

I don't understand the Amblin logo part either...

Chaac - who's still wondering what's the "Hollywood element" in John William's music and how it affects negatively his work.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

The Amblin logo is Williams' crowning achievement? If that's all I need, then Zimmer is a thousand times better.

Well no, his crowning achievement is obviously Cinderella Liberty.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Chaac - who's still wondering what's the "Hollywood element" in John William's music and how it affects negatively his work.

Well that was Cremmers comment but wait, I will brought my thoughts together and bring one exhaustive post to solve this thread.

I really am disappointed.