So Ridley Scott is directing a Prometheus sequel... (The official Alien: Covenant Thread)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I doubt that will happen.

[publicist 4,643]

A malicious tongue might say you pig-headedly ignore any fact or proof that might counter or dilute your opinions (mostly formed a long time ago) with PROMETHEUS being just the latest in a long line of examples but me being of tranquil mind, i wouldn't do that..

Although PROMETHEUS certainly as cinema experience wasn't as offensively bad as a lot of wise-asses try to convince us, it is rather pitiful science fiction.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There are good scenes throughout the film. But as stand alone moments. They don't lead to any improvement. (some films start out poorly but gain momentum).

As sci-fi it has nothing new to offer, or tells what we have already heard in a new or interesting way.

[crocodile 8,012]

I liked the first 10 minutes. It was a promise of a much better film.

Karol

[A24 4,333]

Also, I don't think form is the content in Scott's movies. Yes, when he made Blade Runner he said "The design is the statement", or in Alien, where the first credits go to all the designers of the film (now that's a statement!), but Scott doesn't go that far anymore. Snyder, yes. Scott, no. And Snyder will have to change too because people and thus the studios are complaining. After all, the people want stories, not form.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Almost all of Scotts films are story driven. He is a conventional film maker in that regard.

Alien, Blade Runner and as i am told The Duelist are exeptions to that. I guess Legend is too.

[Quintus 5,399]

I avoided most of the discussion. I wanted to go in fresh as a Rachael.

Nah, you were quite involved, I remember it well. After you'd eventually seen it you chimed in to agree directly when I said I thought the visuals weren't anything special, which I've repeated many times in various Scott related threads.

Still, everyone loves the visuals ... best visuals since Avatar, they all say (which I didn't like either).

Very different approach and motivation to that of Prometheus. Avatar was a spectacle movie, like Jurassic Park.

Prometheus on the other hand was supposed to be full of visual artistry and expression (some say it apparently is), which is an utterly different visual experience to something like Avatar, which again is reliant on its Ooo Ahhh factor.

Wildly different ends of the sensory scale, which you really ought to understand since you consider yourself a greater arbiter of the visual expression.

[crocodile 8,012]

I never said the visuals are stunning. I said 3D is well used.

Karol

[Thor 7,504]

Also, I don't think form is the content in Scott's movies. Yes, when he made Blade Runner he said "The design is the statement", or in Alien, where the first credits go to all the designers of the film (now that's a statement!), but Scott doesn't go that far anymore. Snyder, yes. Scott, no. And Snyder will have to change too because people and thus the studios are complaining. After all, the people want stories, not form.

I couldn't disagree more. Even though Scott operates in the classical, storytelling Hollywood paradigm, his strength as a filmmaker lies in the way he visualizes various themes. That goes back all the way to his days at the Royal College of Arts.

[A24 4,333]

Nah, you were quite involved, I remember it well. After you'd eventually seen it you chimed in to agree directly when I said I thought the visuals weren't anything special, which I've repeated many times in various Scott related threads.

Sorry, I avoided it many times, especially when the movie was out and people were talking about the plot. I didn't read that. I might have chimed in occasionally when the coast was clear and people were talking about Scott in general or to post a viral video. I went in not knowing a single thing about the film. I did pick up people didn't like the writing. That was sorta unavoidable. I guess I must've said: "What did you expect, it's that guy from Lost!"

[publicist 4,643]

So how did he visualize those 'various themes' PROMETHEUS obviously is so ripe with?

[A24 4,333]

Also, I don't think form is the content in Scott's movies. Yes, when he made Blade Runner he said "The design is the statement", or in Alien, where the first credits go to all the designers of the film (now that's a statement!), but Scott doesn't go that far anymore. Snyder, yes. Scott, no. And Snyder will have to change too because people and thus the studios are complaining. After all, the people want stories, not form.

I couldn't disagree more. Even though Scott operates in the classical, storytelling Hollywood paradigm, his strength as a filmmaker lies in the way he visualizes various themes. That goes back all the way to his days at the Royal College of Arts.

I certainly see a big difference in his approach. I see that the background has been driven from the foreground (where he used to put it) to the background. That's a major difference. His movies have become a lot more conventional in this regard. Heck, if he still was as obsessive and maniacal as in the days of The Duellists, Alien or Blade Runner, I would be delighted like you wouldn't believe. It's how I get my kicks!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Of course!

After Legend failed he either had to shape up or ship out. Which explains Someone To Watch Over me.

Becoming more "Hollywood" made him a financially successful director. It also changed the way he thinks and feels about film (the Final Cut of BR proved this).

Scott just is a completely different director. Still very interested in visuals. But the story is his backbone.

[A24 4,333]

Or at least, he has watered down that aspect. It's what Scott's says too. He said he never paid so much attention to detail as when he made Blade Runner. They spend months on those sets (it wouldn't be possible today). It bursts of creativity (to the point some find it bombastic or destracting). Every little detail had to be exactly right, even when you didn't see it, or Scott would explode. Now it's just nice and functional but not "crazy", as Snyder would put it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In Blade Runner and Alien you really got the feeling the sets were as much a character in the film and the actors. They were literally enveloped in those environments. Part of it. Their actions and motivations formed by those environments.

In Prometheus the sets are far more in the back ground somehow.

[A24 4,333]

Yep, and when you look at it that way, it enhances the experience enormously.

"Though Scott has forged a style that is recognizably his own, his approach to filmmaking has a precedent in German Expressionist filmmaking. The Expressionists were among the first to use the elements of mise-en-scène (set design, lighting, props, costuming) to suggest traits of character or enhance meaning. Similarly, Scott's techniques are stunning yet highly artificial, a trait often criticized by American reviewers, who too often value plot and character over visual style, and realism over symbolism." - Susan Doll (International Dictionary of Films and Filmmakers, 1991)

[Thor 7,504]

There is so much firepower in the way he visualizes -- even today -- that it's the MAIN thing about his films (at least for me). Back then and now. I'm so tired of reading casual criticisms a la "the story sucked, but it was beautiful to look at". As if the latter was somehow a less valuabe aspect of filmmaking. When you are as conscious about the visual arts as Scott, there is ALWAYS stuff going on there that has tons of meaning all on its own.

In that way, I think he's one of the most underrated directors around.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

there is ALWAYS stuff going on there that has tons of meaning all on its own.

Can you give an example from Prometheus?

[Quintus 5,399]

And who the fuck is Susan Doll!

[publicist 4,643]

Can you give an example from Prometheus?

I was about to ask.

And Thor, please no wordy broad-term showboating, just clear and precise: what is the idea, how is it presented visually.

[Thor 7,504]

there is ALWAYS stuff going on there that has tons of meaning all on its own.

Can you give an example from Prometheus?

Sure. It's really an article-length question that you pose there, and I don't feel like doing one on a Saturday evening (I'm off in a few minutes).

But I can mention a few:

One is the escape pod/Meredith Vicker's living quarters -- one of the sequences in the film that made my jaw drop. The cross-pollenation of furniture from older times and a clean, clinical look with the huge screen in the background meditatively showing a snowcovered forest. It taps into the whole retrofitted design that he also explored in BLADE RUNNER and ALIEN, and alludes to the evolution of man, 2001-style.

Then there's the beautiful LAWRENCE OF ARABIA sequence. Its relevance is never made explicit, but lies there as a mirror of David -- another man who willingly sacrificed everything to reach his goal.

Of course, I wouldn't need to mention the sexual symbolism that continues in ALIENs tradition -- like the penis-shaped snake monster.

[Quintus 5,399]

Can you give an example from Prometheus?

I was about to ask.

And Thor, please no wordy broad-term showboating, just clear and precise: what is the idea, how is it presented visually.

Irony!

[Thor 7,504]

I will also recommend this article, which probes deeper into some of the philosophical backdrop:

http://cavalorn.livejournal.com/584135.html

[Brónach 1,302]

This film film had very little intellectual value.

[publicist 4,643]

Irony!

Idiocy!

[Thor 7,504]

This film film had very little intellectual value.

It has TONS of intellectual value. But even more than that, it's a fantastic, visceral experience.

The real irony here is that the more "hate" I read, the more secure I am in my love of the film and what it's about.

[Brónach 1,302]

everyone seems to be blown away by 'the visuals' (everyone except me).

I wasn't crazy about it either. It didn't have much we hadn't seen before. The engineers themselves and the fact tht they stay in the same place the whole film going back and forth didn't help with that.

This film film had very little intellectual value.

It has TONS of intellectual value.

lol that attitude in some makes me want to go back and write that review.

Putting Christian symbolism everywhere doesn't say much to me, intellectually speaking. And when you couple it with a bunch of scientific nonsense the film drops dead on the spot.

[A24 4,333]

Unlike with Alien or Blade Runner, I can't see artists and filmmakers borrowing and stealing elements from Prometheus for decades to come. Maybe others can, but I certainly don't see how this film will make any difference.

About the themes, I only saw the film once, I didn't focus on them, but I had the feeling there wasn't anything beyond what the story or characters didn't already discuss.

BTW, Lee is the theme expert here.

Alex

[Jay 37,359]

Unlike with Alien or Blade Runner, I can't see artists and filmmakers borrowing and stealing elements from Prometheus for decades to come. Maybe others can, but I certainly don't see how this film will make any difference.

I agree with you. But, I think it's because the film was bad, not because the visual style was nothing special... because it was. imo.

[Thor 7,504]

Let's wait and see. Whether people will borrow from it or not, I think its stature will improve over the next few years.

[Quintus 5,399]

Irony!

Idiocy!

Baloney!

Unlike with Alien or Blade Runner, I can't see artists and filmmakers borrowing and stealing elements from Prometheus for decades to come. Maybe others can, but I certainly don't see how this film will make any difference.

About the themes, I only saw the film once, I didn't focus on them, but I had the feeling there wasn't anything beyond what the story or characters didn't already discuss.

BTW, Lee is the theme expert here.

Alex

I also know Shotokan, pottery and floristry, but I've never been able to work them into conversations here, sadly.

[Brónach 1,302]

Well, you should!

[Ollie 1,059]

1979 seems more like a dream than anything......

[A24 4,333]

Of course, we, the board, should take into account that Prometheus is a prequel to another film, an existing film, a universe, a franchise. There wasn't that much freedom for the makers to create something we didn't see before. That might change somewhat in the sequels, when we go to the home planet of the gods. Still, I think Scott has made his masterpieces (Alien and Blade Runner will remain forever handbooks for everyone who will attempt to make another science fiction film), I don't expect a 75-year-old director to be breaking new grounds all over again.

Alex -

[Quintus 5,399]

And lest we condemn the grizzled veteran and pensioner for going off the boil in his old age (which sometimes feels the case here).

Same goes for Spielberg.

[publicist 4,643]

While the article was an interesting read to explain some machinations behind PROMETHEUS, why must christian mythology and Jesus^TM and God^TM always be the base of such stories? It's a silly american custom.

If we were really scrutinizing, though, we might ask if it is really an intellectual accomplishment to drape elements of greek and christian mythology around your b-movie scripts to let them appear more weighty.

And lest we condemn the grizzled veteran and pensioner for going off the boil in his old age (which sometimes feels the case here).

Same goes for Spielberg.

And Williams, actually.

[Quintus 5,399]

Indeed.

[Brónach 1,302]

While the article was an interesting read to explain some machinations behind PROMETHEUS, why must christian mythology and Jesus^TM and God^TM always be the base of such stories? It's a silly american custom.

If we were really scrutinizing, though, we might ask if it is really an intellectual accomplishment to drape elements of greek and christian mythology around your b-movie scripts to let them appear more weighty.

My point exactly. Even if one were to put a religious reference or two for a founded reason, they could try being a little less mainstream.

But Damon Lindelof has done that, and will probably be doing it again. It's his favourite trick.

[publicist 4,643]

Listening to dvd commentaries made me alert how often screenwriters find it necessary to pass really basic and tried-and-true story developments as something deep and profound in their own case - the romantic candlelight dinner sure sounds like an awe-inspiring event if you say you got it from Thomas Hobbes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

About the themes, I only saw the film once, I didn't focus on them, but I had the feeling there wasn't anything beyond what the story or characters didn't already discuss.

Same here. All the themes seemed self-evident. All the questions answered for us, apart from those that they wanna save for the sequel

I certainly didn't feel an overwhelming urge to revisit, or to think more deeply.

I agree with you. But, I think it's because the film was bad, not because the visual style was nothing special... because it was. imo.

In what way?

The special effects set design, cinematography were all well executed. But what was so "special" about them? What did Prom do visually that was groundbreaking?

[Brónach 1,302]

Listening to dvd commentaries made me alert how often screenwriters find it necessary to pass really basic and tried-and-true story developments as something deep and profound in their own case - the romantic candlelight dinner sure sounds like an awe-inspiring event if you say you got it from Thomas Hobbes.

Sometimes fans also cling to that to justify why they think something is good.

[Quintus 5,399]

The themes of Prometheus are speak and spell clichés for the FHM generation, done a million times before and far more substantially. Again, the script is the culprit, because visual themes (such as the eyes in Blade Runner) aren't apparent, or at least successfully conveyed.

Are Koray and Thor FHM readers?

[A24 4,333]

I think you made a good point today, Steef, the sets of the early films really seemed to live somehow. It's as if they too have conscience and are undergoing/witnessing the events that are taking place. The early films had that sort of intimacy that made it possible. It was really unique. It wasn't about broad lines. It was all in the detail.

Alex

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Alien is one of the most realistic films I've ever seen. I totally believed in that world. that environment. And the characters seem to belong there.

[A24 4,333]

And you have to live, to experience the detail and atmosphere. It's not something you can explain to people in a pub.

[publicist 4,643]

It helped that they didn't talk much...

Are Koray and Thor FHM readers?

The tit gazette?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Of course, we, the board, should take into account that Prometheus is a prequel to another film, an existing film, a universe, a franchise.

This is true. Unlike great sci-fi. In which you have a blank page and can write whatever you want, Prom folloewed the pre-existing pattern dictated by this brethren in the sage. Most notably Alien and ironically the B movie Aliens vs. Predator. (which has many of the same idea, an identical plot set up and also uses Chariots Of The Gods as a reference point. Did Scott and Lindeloff not see that film?)

[Quintus 5,399]

Alien is one of the most realistic films I've ever seen. I totally believed in that world. that environment. And the characters seem to belong there.

It is and I agree; but it's not the only movie to be successful in that respect. I only say that because sometimes it feels (mainly due to Alex's open never-ending worship of it) like Alien is supposed to be the be-all-and-end-all one-of-a-kind benchmark on this forum for all things film and visual. But the truth is it's not - it's just one example. I've been a member of a movie-specific forum in the past and I swear it was barely ever even brought up whenever discussing these recurring themes (of movie production and execution). It's only here that it its card gets [tiresomely] played like a broken record, and frankly I just find it awfully monotonous. It's like the Alien/Blade Runner merry-go-round every other week.

There are more than two great visually driven/striking movies in existence and it'd be pretty refreshing if they were used to make a point instead every once in a while.

/semi rant.

[A24 4,333]

This is true. Unlike great sci-fi. In which you have a blank page and can write whatever you want, Prom folloewed the pre-existing pattern dictated by this brethren in the sage. Most notably Alien and ironically the B movie Aliens vs. Predator. (which has many of the same idea, an identical plot set up and also uses Chariots Of The Gods as a reference point. Did Scott and Lindeloff not see that film?)

It seems that I need to watch that one again. Although I fear I won't be as 'entertained' by it as during the first time.

It's sad that you feel the need to attack me al the time, Lee, but don't worry, I can take it.

[Brónach 1,302]

I agree with Quint, but I don't feel he was attacking you.