The Howard Shore Middle Earth Score Showdown Poll! (An Unexpected Journey vs Fellowship of the Ring, musically)

[Barnald 365]

While I struggle greatly to understand it given my shameful ignorance, I find the above discussion absolutely fascinating.

 

As far as my own observations go - and again you'll have to excuse my lack of requisite knowledge - I find certain passages in DoS and BotFA a little odd, in that the transition (space? bars?) between notes strikes me as too short, leading to a rather clumsy and awkward sound. I think I've mentioned this before, but the best example I have of this is something I can directly compare part of AUJ too: 'Edge of the Wild' and 'The High Fells'. When I listen to 1:20-1:43 of 'EotW', I observe - to my ears at least - a clear structure and breathing space between...sections (I hope you know what I mean by that). By comparison, 0:11-0:19 of 'The High Fells' (I know the direct comparison would involve a longer passage, but it's this bit I find problematic), sounds off to me, like it transitions from one section to the next much too quickly, leading to a messy-sounding passage. Again, perhaps it's just my lowly ears and tastes favouring a more distinct, 'hummable' sound, but in all 4 of Shore's previous M-E scores I really don't remember encountering anything quite as jarring as that. And there are other small parts of DoS and BotFA I feel similarly about. Perhaps one could offer explanations for this (i.e., Pope needing to fit the music to picture after changes?), but I won't venture too much incase it is indeed all by Shore's design.

 

Of course its all 'acceptable' music when all's said and done, but I hope at least one person sees where I'm coming from (once you've recovered from my horrifying crimes against music lingo).

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

That's an interesting interpretation.

 

I like the first 11 seconds of 'The High Fells', and what follows after the equivalent section (with 'The Nine' and whatnot), but prefer 'EotW's take on the intervening bit.

[gkgyver 1,645]

SafeUnderHill, 

You don't understand what I mean. You respond like I was criticising the composition of the quoted passages. I don't.

As I've said earlier, I don't like the dry sound of it, and the mixing, because it makes the music sound small, the opposite of what Shore usually conveys with his Tolkien music, especially in battle scenes. 

I KNOW it's Smaug/Dragon Sickness theme, but that doesn't make it any less sound like any other modern style score. 

 

And what Barnald said is exactly what I mean. Shore's own orchestrations convey a deep sound, a sort of open sound that transports space and history and age. Pope doesn't come anywhere near that. He nudges the music more into a blend of classical orchestrations mixed with modern rhythmic techniques. And the result is a sound that still has passages of deeply forceful brass or thematic splendor, which are lessened in simple effectiveness and unchecked heroism/emotion because of overcomplicated orchestrations and nondescript string patterns thrown on top of it. It simply doesn't sound like Shore.

 

Just as a particularly revealing example, in Battle For The Mountain, when the hectic string patterns start at 1:02, the music suffers from the symptome described above. But as soon as that stuff pulls away at 1:42, and the rhythmic, broad brass comes to the front, rhythm is carried by somewhat wet percussion, the score immediately gets into the sound territory we grew to love in LotR.

 

And I can only explain it with two things. Either Shore was asked to produce a more modern sound because the first two scores weren't as acclaimed as the LotR scores were, and the music is a result of a composer being forced to work outside his comfort zone, or Pope was asked to tweak the sound that way. Because a dry string sound like that isn't just produced on the mixing table, you have to position mics a certain way.

 

That Shore tweaked his music to accomodate the new orchestra may be true, but not to this extent. Don't forget that the freaking Moria sequence was recorded there.

And don't forget that the esteemed Mr. Pope said not too long ago he wished the NZSO could play music more befitting its strengths.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

On 3/30/2016 at 0:38 AM, KK said:

Over one of the greatest action set-pieces of the post-2000s?

 

On 3/30/2016 at 7:38 AM, Stefancos said:

I wouldn't vote for a single AUJ track over FOTR, and certainly not in that instance.

I only picked the two Goblintown tracks from AUJ.  I find "Under Hill" a lot more interesting than the action parts of "Balin's Tomb" (probably my least favorite part of the FOTR score), and while the Khazad-Dum action material is more interesting, I like the denouement of "Brass Buttons" a lot more than the Dimrill Dale music.

 

On 4/4/2016 at 1:08 PM, Kühni said:

We should also consider that for both FotR and AUJ, Shore had the most time to work on the music. He started on LotR mid-2000, needed to have the first bits of music recorded for the Cannes showing in spring of 2001, with the film out in December 2001. When you consider that during 2002, he not only had to do T2T, but also the additional material for FotR, Panic Room, Spider and (supposedly) Gangs of New York, that is no small feat for anybody.

 

And to my ears, the soundtrack for AUJ (pre-PJ-meddling) reaches LotR levels in terms of evident enthusiasm, bite to the performance and recording and thematic interplay. In my ears, neither DoS nor TABA (sorry, I'm sticking to it!) do the same. For the very first time, it felt to me as if Shore was going through the motions in the latter two scores. They're still marvelous overall, but not the same level of the preceding four scores.

 

At least, that is my - subjective - take on this issue (if it really is an issue, mind).

Amen.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

On 4/7/2016 at 2:25 AM, TheGreyPilgrim said:

And the conducting is decidedly un-Shoreian.

I'm curious (I'll admit I know very little about conducting): what differentiates Shore and Pope as conductors?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Well, it's hard to answer without sounding bullshity, but you can just feel the way someone conducts, don't you think?  When I watch Williams conduct, the very way that he moves and gestures is translated into musical terms by the players, exactly.  What you hear is how he looks.  The more distinctive the conducting, the greater that feeling.  And Shore has a really distinctive manner on the podium, no small part of which, I think, is his avoidance of using a baton.  Pope seems to have more of the sensibilities of a seasoned conductor of film scores, specifically, and all of the rigor that goes along with that, while Shore, to me, is somewhere outside of that.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Was about to post the same thing. Conducting is more than waving a baton. In film scores, tempo is defined by definite numbers and meters anyway, so where the conductor makes himself known is in articulations, and maybe mixing, not sure there with Pope.

And you definitely hear that the music articulates itself slightly different than when Shore conducts. And that is aided by the simple issue that the NZ Orchestra is as much accustomed to playing Shore as Pope is to conducting him.