What do we know about Esther Williams -- John's mom?

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

Well, we do know TWO things about her:

1. Her maiden name was Esther Towner

2. She was not the swimmer/MGM movie star by the name Esther Williams

Also, after some Google research, I came upon a site called ancestry.com. There was a record of an Esther Towner (Williams) (1909-2006) who married John Williams (sr.) and had four children (John, Don, Jerry and Joan). No info about her or what she did, but amazingly, there was an old PHOTO! You have to sign up and pay to see a bigger picture, but I printed the screen and made a thumbnail here:

Could this be her?

Am I good or what?

I don't know what to say to this.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Esther Williams was a great swimmer and had a great line of swim where.

the other Esther had a great son.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

JWFamily.com

Thats what its like for me!

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

Esther Williams was a great swimmer and had a great line of swim where.

Where can I get this swim where?

[chuck 154]

Esther Williams was a great swimmer and had a great line of swim where.

Where can I get this swim where?

Wear can I get this swim where?

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

Esther Williams was a great swimmer and had a great line of swim where.

Where can I get this swim where?

Wear can I get this swim where?

The jokes in this thread are starting to where thin.

[Luke Skywalker 1,794]

Esther Williams was a great swimmer and had a great line of swim where.

damn you beat me to it

[chuck 154]

Esther Williams was a great swimmer and had a great line of swim where.

Where can I get this swim where?

Wear can I get this swim where?

The jokes in this thread are starting to where thin.

There's so much you can make jokes about JW's old lady.

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

Esther Williams was a great swimmer and had a great line of swim where.

Where can I get this swim where?

Wear can I get this swim where?

The jokes in this thread are starting to where thin.

There's so much you can make jokes about JW's old lady.

You can if you have the wearwithal.

[chuck 154]

Oh yeah, you're one to talk.

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

Oh yeah, you're one to talk.

Wear did you get that idea?

OK, I'll stop.

[chuck 154]

Please. For the love of JW.

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

Please. For the love of JW.

And England.

[chuck 154]

Land of the Queen.

[Thor 7,492]

Trying desperately to move this back on-topic, there are some other interesting things that can be found from the records above.

* Esther lived to be almost a 100 years (a good sign for our own Johnny!)

* Esther was 23 years old when she gave birth to John

* When she herself was born in 1909, her father David was 50 years old and her mother Ada 46 years old. That's very late, as far the time period is concerned

* John's grandparents were probably pioneers of the "wild west". No wonder Williams did several great Western scores! Maybe his grandmother told him some stories from their past that ignited creative sparks. John was only 4 when David passed away, but Ada died in 1949, when John was 17.

* Both grandparents on Esther's side were born in Canada. While John served in the air force (1952-1955), he spent much of his time in Newfoundland in Canada -- where he also scored his very first movie -- YOU ARE WELCOME (1954).

In any case, you could piece together a whole story (semi-fictional) based purely on the few facts and dates and names you have. A story about Williams' young years (and before).

Still, none of this tells us what Esther did for a living or if she was involved in some form of creative enterprise that may have trickled down on to our own Johnny. That's the biggest mystery that I'd like to find an answer to.

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

I wonder if the mods will close this thread before the police do.

[Thor 7,492]

I wonder if the mods will close this thread before the police do.

Why?

Here in Norway, there's a very interesting TV program right now called "Who do you think you are?". It's about certain Norwegian celebs who try to find out more about one or two of their ancestors. It's very interesting, because it can say so much about who they are themselves and how they ended up the way they did.

Most big artists and composers throughout history have established biographies by now. That's not the case for Williams, especially not as far his early years are concerned. So for those of us who are actually interested to know more about who this guy is and what inspired him to be such a great composer, you have to piece together the information on your own -- based on public documents that are available online.

If you don't have any interest in that; fine. But please don't come down on those of us who do.

[Quintus 5,399]

That show is originally a BBC production. It's since been sold all around the world

I don't see anything wrong with your interest, Thor.

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

I wonder if the mods will close this thread before the police do.

Why?

Here in Norway, there's a very interesting TV program right now called "Who do you think you are?". It's about certain Norwegian celebs who try to find out more about one or two of their ancestors. It's very interesting, because it can say so much about who they are themselves and how they ended up the way they did.

Most big artists and composers throughout history have established biographies by now. That's not the case for Williams, especially not as far his early years are concerned. So for those of us who are actually interested to know more about who this guy is and what inspired him to be such a great composer, you have to piece together the information on your own -- based on public documents that are available online.

If you don't have any interest in that; fine. But please don't come down on those of us who do.

Fair enough. And I'm sure your intentions are good. I just cant help but feel it's a little invasive of this woman's privacy. John Williams is a public figure, his mother is not. If you were working on a biography, that might be different. But personal information like this on a public fan forum. I don't know.

Hmmmmmm. I don't entirely have a handle on exactly how I feel about this, just that it's a bit uneasy. For that reason, I'll stay out of your thread.

Except to make the occasional joke, of course.

[Thor 7,492]

Actually, I do have intentions of writing a John Williams book some day. Be that as it may, however, I don't think I'm invading her privacy by looking up PUBLIC documents that are available online. All I'm interested in -- really -- is to find the seeds of John Williams' creativity, professionally and personally. We know he inherited some from his father (there's even an interview on youtube where Williams himself talks about Johnny sr.). However, we don't know if there was anything her mother did (like it was for Spielberg and Leah, his concert pianist mother). That's the crux of the matter for me.

In a similar fashion -- when I listen to the Simon & Garfunkel-like music of The Belle Brigade (with Barbara and Ethan Gruska, the children of Jennifer Williams, JW's daughter) or the edgy, "dirty" electronica of Lionel Williams aka "Vinyl Williams" (son of Mark Williams, JW's son), I ask myself: Is there anything inherited from JW here? Or, for that matter, the music of Mark and Joseph themselves.

That show is originally a BBC production. It's since been sold all around the world

Really? Any celebrities in the original English version that we would know over here? Maybe it's worth checking out. I love genealogy!

[chuck 154]

I think Stephen Fry was on once.

[Nick1Ø66 4,710]

I think Stephen Fry was on once.

Stephen Fry has been on most everything.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Bless him....

[filmmusic 1,826]

Trying desperately to move this back on-topic, there are some other interesting things that can be found from the records above.

* Esther lived to be almost a 100 years (a good sign for our own Johnny!)

* Esther was 23 years old when she gave birth to John

* When she herself was born in 1909, her father David was 50 years old and her mother Ada 46 years old. That's very late, as far the time period is concerned

* John's grandparents were probably pioneers of the "wild west". No wonder Williams did several great Western scores! Maybe his grandmother told him some stories from their past that ignited creative sparks. John was only 4 when David passed away, but Ada died in 1949, when John was 17.

* Both grandparents on Esther's side were born in Canada. While John served in the air force (1952-1955), he spent much of his time in Newfoundland in Canada -- where he also scored his very first movie -- YOU ARE WELCOME (1954).

In any case, you could piece together a whole story (semi-fictional) based purely on the few facts and dates and names you have. A story about Williams' young years (and before).

Still, none of this tells us what Esther did for a living or if she was involved in some form of creative enterprise that may have trickled down on to our own Johnny. That's the biggest mystery that I'd like to find an answer to.

Thank you very much Thor.

Where exactly did you find all these information?

[Thor 7,492]

At a couple of those genealogy sites -- like ancestry.com.

The quest for Esther's profession, however, still goes on.

By the way, I just realized that Esther's parents might not have been 'pioneers of the west' since they came from Canada. At best "Canada's wild west":

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Actually, I do have intentions of writing a John Williams book some day.

In that case, I'd write his agent and ask if he can provide any information.

[KK 3,307]

By the way, I just realized that Esther's parents might not have been 'pioneers of the west' since they came from Canada. At best "Canada's wild west":

That's awesome.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Blame Canada!

[Quintus 5,399]

Jerry Springer did the British version as well.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I didn't even know Williams had a daughter until that interview in Boston a few years ago. Now you're telling me he had a mother?

[Incanus 5,714]

What?!!! Williams has a normal family? He didn't just spontaneously come into being when the orchestra made its first Bmmmmtzzzzzzz?

[Quintus 5,399]

I always just assumed he was another product of MKUltra.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

In all honesty, this hunt is a bit silly.

Finding out who Esther Williams is will not teach you what makes John Williams' music brilliant.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I disagree. We need to know the exact nature of JWs upbringing. So we can obtain a sample of his DNA and clone him, and replicate the conditions in which he was brought up.

Ever seen The Boys From Brazil

[Trent B 337]

This site has become massively dull.

For people to start threads like this, I actually agree.

[Thor 7,492]

In all honesty, this hunt is a bit silly.

Finding out who Esther Williams is will not teach you what makes John Williams' music brilliant.

I strongly disagree. Parents are enormously influential -- for better and worse. Just look back at the Spielberg example again (or any other artist, for that matter), and how much he credits his artistic sensibilities to his mother. But hey, if you don't have any interest in this, you're free to stop reading at any time.

I found something else too:

If you follow Esther's path backwards in time, her father was David John Towner and his father again was ALSO named David John Towner. He was from England and married Emily Roberteau from France. Together, they moved to Quebec, Canada -- I'm guessing sometime in the early 1800's?

So on his mother's side, Williams has French-English roots (I knew the brilliance of JANE EYRE had to come from somewhere! ).

Unfortunately, there is no record of Johnny Williams sr.'s heritage.

[indy4 155]

Trying desperately to move this back on-topic, there are some other interesting things that can be found from the records above.

* Esther lived to be almost a 100 years (a good sign for our own Johnny!)

* Esther was 23 years old when she gave birth to John

* When she herself was born in 1909, her father David was 50 years old and her mother Ada 46 years old. That's very late, as far the time period is concerned

* John's grandparents were probably pioneers of the "wild west". No wonder Williams did several great Western scores! Maybe his grandmother told him some stories from their past that ignited creative sparks. John was only 4 when David passed away, but Ada died in 1949, when John was 17.

* Both grandparents on Esther's side were born in Canada. While John served in the air force (1952-1955), he spent much of his time in Newfoundland in Canada -- where he also scored his very first movie -- YOU ARE WELCOME (1954).

In any case, you could piece together a whole story (semi-fictional) based purely on the few facts and dates and names you have. A story about Williams' young years (and before).

Still, none of this tells us what Esther did for a living or if she was involved in some form of creative enterprise that may have trickled down on to our own Johnny. That's the biggest mystery that I'd like to find an answer to.

Really interesting stuff Thor. Thanks for digging!

[Thor 7,492]

You're welcome. I'm glad not everyone thinks it's silly and pointless and stupid to dig into Williams' past!

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I think it's interesting (though I'm not convinced that more distant ancestors than e.g. grandparents have much of an influence on most persons that cannot be traced to direct influence by the parents/grandparents). But since I don't have anything to contribute, there's also not much for me to comment on.

[Brónach 1,302]

(though I'm not convinced that more distant ancestors than e.g. grandparents have much of an influence on most persons that cannot be traced to direct influence by the parents/grandparents).

Unless you have contact with the person in question, get passed certain genetic conditions or characteristic by this person, or the knowledge of his/her existence wakes up curiosity or some thought, I don't think there would be influence at all.

[SF1_freeze 131]

I wonder if the mods will close this thread before the police do.

I don't get what's the problem...

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

(though I'm not convinced that more distant ancestors than e.g. grandparents have much of an influence on most persons that cannot be traced to direct influence by the parents/grandparents).

Unless you have contact with the person in question, get passed certain genetic conditions or characteristic by this person, or the knowledge of his/her existence wakes up curiosity or some thought, I don't think there would be influence at all.

That's exactly what I meant.

[Thor 7,492]

(though I'm not convinced that more distant ancestors than e.g. grandparents have much of an influence on most persons that cannot be traced to direct influence by the parents/grandparents).

Unless you have contact with the person in question, get passed certain genetic conditions or characteristic by this person, or the knowledge of his/her existence wakes up curiosity or some thought, I don't think there would be influence at all.

I think it's the age-old debate about genes vs. environment.

Of course, it's difficult to argue that Williams' roots in France, England and Canada have any kind of influence on his creativity (that was more extra information I stumbled upon in my research), but I do think grandparents can have a considerable influence in several ways. Williams was 17 when his grandmother on the mother side passed away, and I wouldn't be surprised if he got some stories from her about growing up in Canada. And he was 74(!) when Esther passed.

If I speak for myself, I can definitely say that there's been an influence from my grandfather, who passed away two years ago. He was a vicar by profession, and I think I've inherited some of his communicative style when I've taught students etc. I also admired his mannerisms, and -- consciously or unconsciously -- tapped into some of them myself over the years. Many have said that I remind them of my grandfather in certain ways.

And of course, I've inherited many things from my own parents -- for good or bad. Several of those things I've used in my own professional and "creative" life.

So I do think there's a lot to be said about genealogy, in terms of understanding where you're at, who you are and what particular gifts you've been blessed with (or quirks).

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

Certainly we're influenced by those relatives who we've interacted with. I just pointed out that you were going back several generations into the past. And while his more distant ancestors certainly also had an influence on Williams, this was just indirectly through how they influenced their own children etc. In other words: It's still interesting, but I don't think you can learn all that much from who Williams' great great grandparent was that you can't also learn from his parents or grandparents, as far as influence goes.

[filmmusic 1,826]

So on his mother's side, Williams has French-English roots (I knew the brilliance of JANE EYRE had to come from somewhere! ).

well I am not sure, if ethnicity matters, play always a part on a composer.

eg. I am Greek but you won't find not even a tiny trace of Greek style in my music.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Johnny keeps her in the fruit cellar.

[Quintus 5,399]

God help meeee

[Thor 7,492]

Certainly we're influenced by those relatives who we've interacted with. I just pointed out that you were going back several generations into the past. And while his more distant ancestors certainly also had an influence on Williams, this was just indirectly through how they influenced their own children etc. In other words: It's still interesting, but I don't think you can learn all that much from who Williams' great great grandparent was that you can't also learn from his parents or grandparents, as far as influence goes.

I agree with that. Although I also think that genes play just as big a role as environments....at least to a higher extent than you seem to do.

[Brónach 1,302]

His ancestors have an influence on him in that he was born in a particular place in a particular time with a particular appearance. Genes have an influence on personality, but you won't get much further than that, and you wouldn't need to go further back than himself. You'd need to know what JW's genome and evaluate how it might affect some hormone levels in his brain, etc Then there's a vast array of personality elements that will be there due to upbringing and experiences, and then you'd have to take into account that his whole personality evolves over time. Anything beyond the ancestors he didn't interact with won't really matter unless his family carries an illness or knowing that great grandfather did this or that inspires him to do this or that. And certainly that influence will be minuscule compared to his close family, friends, enemies and overall cultural environment through his life.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Wow, as soon as the JW geeks get their own land on this forum, they start to stalk John's family ...(just in case, this was a joke)

What?!!! Williams has a normal family? He didn't just spontaneously come into being when the orchestra made its first Bmmmmtzzzzzzz?

Scientists and musicologists alike refer to this as "The Big Boom-Tzz Theory".