What are the most uninteresting themes of Williams?

[filmmusic 1,828]

Hello all..

I was wondering, in the output of Williams' film music (well, mostly from 1975 and on because I'm sure you'll find more in his early music), what would you consider his most musically uninteresting themes and (if you like to say) why?

I was just studying Saving Private Ryan music, and I think the Hymn to the Fallen is one of his most uninteresting efforts.

-step-wise motion in the melody with no interest and regular rhythm except some dotted motifs here and there that don't save the theme

-regular usual harmony and plain chords

-the orchestrations and texture try to put some interest into it, especially in the later renditions of the theme in the piece, but again I don't think it's saved..

I'm sure the film and the tone of the movie called for a simple elegy as an homage to the fallen, but I believe Williams could do something better and more sophisticated.

The other theme in the film that is used many times (appr. 7-8) (eg. you can hear it in "Omaha beach": 0.24'' and on) is far more interesting.

i think, part of the reasons for this, is that -as i saw in the music documentary, he says he wrote it in the last minute, so it wasn't something that he thought carefully from the beginning along with the other music, and this wasn't a regular procedure for him..

[Faleel 5,348]

The ones he did not write.

[indy4 155]

The danger motif heard in several of his lost in space scores.

[King Mark 3,631]

those are great.

On top of my mind I don't find Sayuri's Theme that interesting

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Battle of the Heroes.

It's given some good shots early on in Anakin vs Obi-Wan with good orchestration, but it's really not up there as a really solid theme.

[Datameister 2,042]

Dobby's theme.

Daahhh dahhh dahh dahhhh...

[Richard Penna 3,687]

That one gets better as the concert piece progresses.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Cinque's Theme? It's hard to find an uninteresting JW theme, but there are certainly ones that are lesser than others.

[Faleel 5,348]

Cinque's Theme? It's hard to find an uninteresting JW theme, but there are certainly ones that are lesser than others.

[Wojo 2,453]

The Jaws theme. There aren't enough notes.

[Uni 306]

It's hard to find an uninteresting JW theme, but there are certainly ones that are lesser than others.

Yeah, this is a tough one—and this kinda thing inevitably leads to someone giving an honest answer (from their perspective) and someone else verbally barbequing them for having the audacity to suggest a weakness in Williams' solid-gold repertoire.

I'm game for it, though. I've recently been thinking that the "Call of the Crystal" theme from KOTCS doesn't really pull its weight. He tried to get too much mileage out of the simple use of a tritone, and it didn't go the distance. Especially considering the nuance and complexity of so many other themes in the IJ series, this one seemed like a bit of a cop-out.

- Uni (waiting for the sound of tumbling briquettes)

[Demondm810 399]

Gilderoy Lockhart

[Ollie 1,059]

Gilderoy Lockhart

Dobby's Theme

All the new themes from ROTS & AOTC

Always

Tintin

Snowy's theme

[KK 3,307]

On top of my mind I don't find Sayuri's Theme that interesting

Such a beautiful theme though!

The problem with Williams' themes is that they're just too good. It's what he's best at, writing themes. So it's hard to pin down on an uninteresting one. I find Cinque's theme to be quite nice Koray.

[Faleel 5,348]

I think people are misreading Filmmusic's post.

He asked what are the most uninteresting Williams themes compositionally, not what themes are boring to you.

[King Mark 3,631]

On top of my mind I don't find Sayuri's Theme that interesting

Such a beautiful theme though!

It doesn't contain the usual Williams magic within the theme. It's bland like a random LotR motif. It seems Williams must not be completely satisfied with it since he re-wrote so many concert versions trying to rely only on the orchestrations so make it sound better than it is

Battle of the Heroes DOES have the Williams magic though

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I think people are misreading Filmmusic's post.

He asked what are the most uninteresting Williams themes compositionally, not what themes are boring to you.

Didn't misread it, it's just that so few here actually know anything about actual written music. Either way, isn't something that's uninteresting compositionally the equivalent of boring musically? I don't see how bland thematics and underscore can lead to an exciting listening experience.

[Ollie 1,059]

To my ears they don't sound very interesting as far as their strength, orchestrations, and everything else my feeble non musical mind can understand.

[indy4 155]

On top of my mind I don't find Sayuri's Theme that interesting

Such a beautiful theme though!

It doesn't contain the usual Williams magic within the theme. It's bland like a random LotR motif. It seems Williams must not be completely satisfied with it since he re-wrote so many concert versions trying to rely only on the orchestrations so make it sound better than it is

Battle of the Heroes DOES have the Williams magic though

I'd say that regardless of your opinion on Sayuri's Theme, JW is pretty clearly pleased with it. It is the centerpiece of Geisha, and JW spent a decent amount of energy on PR for that score. And the fact that he spent so much time playing with it in various concert pieces suggests to me that he really liked it. I've also never understood the comparison to Minas Tirith's theme from LotR--literally the only similarity is that both start with three long notes and a bunch of short notes after it.

Sayuri's theme is not a nemotioanl power house, but I don't think it was ever meant to be--it's meant to introduce the score in a restrained fashion, and then eventually blossom in the last few tracks.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

The main theme of Sleepers and every single theme in Always.

[Datameister 2,042]

I quite like Sayuri's theme (though I've yet to feel especially warm toward the rest of that score).

For me, the defining characteristic of Tintin's theme is its uninterestingness. It's grown on me somewhat over time, but when you compare it to the other themes Williams has written in this "heroic fanfare" tone...man, it's night and day. I don't know what happened there.

[Gurkensalat 340]

I see Tintins "Theme" more like a motiv, a building block for the composition. Iin general I like to compare the Tintin soundtrack compositionally with Haydn (small motiv based) while War Horse would be more like Mozart (more based on longer themes). In that way I find the Tintin motiv a stroke of genius with all the variations Williams develops over the film. It is a soundtrack that has grown so much on me that I now rank it among my favorite Williams of all time. I simply do not get tired to listen to it.

I agree with Hymn of the Fallen, Battle of the Heroes and Dobby somewhat, but one has to keep in mind that Williams might intentionally use very simplistic progressions to describe a characteristic (which seems to be the case in Dobby). Also I want to add the Patriot main theme as quite uninteresting. I haven´t decided about Lincoln yet...

[Quintus 5,399]

Born on the Fourth of July's trumpet solo motif.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

The main theme of Sleepers and every single theme in Always.

Are you kidding???!!!!!! The "Sleepers" main theme is great, especially the bass line. Is that a fretless bass, anyone?

I've always found "Dry Your tears, Afrika" a bit lazy.

[filmmusic 1,828]

Wanted to add The River main theme (the one with the guitar that there is also a somewhat pop version of it in the movie, with percussion rhythm), although in some renditions of it it's "saved" by its interesting texture and orchestration behind it.

I think that the Always main theme that was mentioned, the one that opens "Pete and Dorinda" track, is one of the most interesting!!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

Wanted to add The River main theme (the one with the guitar that there is also a somewhat pop version of it in the movie, with percussion rhythm), although in some renditions of it it's "saved" by its interesting texture and orchestration behind it.

I think that the Always main theme that was mentioned, the one that opens "Pete and Dorinda" track, is one of the most interesting!!

Re: "The River", I think the track that you're talking about ("The River"), although being the first track on the CD, is actually the End Title.

I've always had a soft spot for this score.

[filmmusic 1,828]

I'm not talking about a track. I'm talking about a theme.

The River main theme, that is heard multiple times in the movie starts at 0.34''-1.01''of the 1st track of the cd you say (that's indeed the end credits).

Here it's one of those instances that it is saved by its orchestration.

although as i see here he has added that B section (after 1.01'') and he makes it interesting.

While in the movie we only hear the first portion of the theme as i said above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9rI2WEfexU&playnext=1&list=PLtbMODhhmBa7J8IyPAQCoNGh6MqBDA_t-&feature=results_video

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Also I want to add the Patriot main theme as quite uninteresting. I haven´t decided about Lincoln yet...

I find most of Lincoln's themes uninteresting,but that's another discussion.

The Patriot uninteresting? I've come to love the concert suite and would have to disagree with you there.

Oh yeah, and Across the Stars. I haven't been inspired to listen to that for years. The only track from that score I have is Chase Through Coruscant actually.

[filmmusic 1,828]

The Patriot uninteresting? I've come to love the concert suite and would have to disagree with you there.

Again people, we don't talk about whole tracks or suites, we talk about specific themes, that may have a duration of some seconds.

(i mean the Patriot suite may have 4-5 themes in it, I don't remember it)

i gather the theme that is mentioned is the one that resembles the Dry your Tears Africa from Amistad, right?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

anything and everything from Hook.

[filmmusic 1,828]

anything and everything from Hook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjiP57ma0yY

This is among my 5 best scores of all time!!

[Quintus 5,399]

The Banquet (concert arrangement) and Hooknapped are two of the finest cues from that era and preferable to quite a few moments in the likes of something such as the ToD score.

[Uni 306]

anything and everything from Hook.

. . . the single most interesting and thematically diverse score from Williams during the 90s.

- Uni

[Wojo 2,453]

Word.

[Marcus 390]

I would find it very difficult to label any of Williams' themes uninteresting; they are simply to thoughtfully constructed for that.

Hymn to the Fallen is one of the most beautifully reverent pieces Williams has ever written, and there's not a note of it I would change. It may not look like a whole lot on paper, but every note has meaning and tremendous dignity. Also, there's some wonderful harmonic writing going on, albeit a little 'below' surface level (the opening trumpet duo, for instance, and its gorgeous harmonic clashes once super-imposed on the general harmonic fabric of the hymn. Also: the brass and woodwind chorales!).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I would find it very difficult to label any of Williams' themes uninteresting; they are simply to thoughtfully constructed for that.

Hymn to the Fallen is one of the most beautifully reverent pieces Williams has ever written, and there's not a note of it I would change. It may not look like a whole lot on paper, but every note has meaning and tremendous dignity. Also, there's some wonderful harmonic writing going on, albeit a little 'below' surface level (the opening trumpet duo, for instance, and its gorgeous harmonic clashes once super-imposed on the general harmonic fabric of the hymn. Also: the brass and woodwind chorales!).

I've thoughtfully made lots of uninteresting things before.

[filmmusic 1,828]

Marcus I'm talking only about the theme (be it a sentence or a period, in this case a large sentence)! not the whole piece! the trumpet duos you say and the chorales aren't part of the theme. (and yes, those are more interesting than the theme itself)

Also I find it difficult to believe that among 100s of Williams themes you can't find just ONE, that is a bit more uninteresting from others..

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

The main theme from Dracula.

[Quintus 5,399]

I would find it very difficult to label any of Williams' themes uninteresting; they are simply to thoughtfully constructed for that.

Out of Williams' ENTIRE vast repertoire you can't think of a single theme which does nothing for you? C'mon, just spit it out!

[Tom 4,658]

Jar Jar's Theme, America the Dream goes on (not just the lyrics, I find the music boring, and Pops on the March. In defense of Marcus, anytime we choose to spend time dwelling on what we do not like about Williams, it seems like an odd use of time.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

While I love the score, I think the themes from The Missouri Breaks are pretty unmemorable, or maybe they're not developed enough... Like the bluesy-rock theme from the Main Titles. Why there isn't more of that??

[King Mark 3,631]

. I haven´t decided about Lincoln yet...

Well, I think The People's House at least deserves to be in future "Best Of" Williams compilations

SPR: Hymn to the Fallen is a pretty good standalone piece. The problem with SPR is that the rest of the score is not so interesting thematically

[Quintus 5,399]

See, I think the mournful melody which opens Omaha Beach is a beautiful, understated 'theme' which touches me moreso than Hymn to the Fallen. The orchestration plays itself down, almost to the point that it might slip completely under the radar (this is my preferred "subtle" Williams approach) but listen to the actual form and progression of the tune and it's easy to imagine an alternate soundtrack to a Star Wars, or a superhero movie in which that little reverential passage instead soars with strings and the thunder of rolling timpani as the hero had his epiphany.

It's not difficult to envision much of Williams' lesser known pieces instead as big signature themes in other movies and genres. In this instance he went for the solemn ennobled approach, but such is John's versatility he might have just as easily made Omaha Beach Luke's Courage.

My point being that perceived musical complexity is a deceptive thing and much more difficult to pin down than what the trained might analyse of it on paper and in black and white. Because most of us know that much of the colouring and reactionary complexity is extracted from the various carefully designed layers of emotion found in a piece... otherwise known as harmonic joy or euphonic pathos.

[King Mark 3,631]

yeah Omaha Beach is good too...I mean the rest of the score

[Naïve Old Fart 9,527]

The main theme from Dracula.

Interesting. Why, exactly, Pasi?

[Romão 2,274]

Crimebuster is not a very interesting theme melodically, but it's such tremendous fun

[filmmusic 1,828]

Crimebuster is not a very interesting theme melodically, but it's such tremendous fun

Yeah i agree that this is another most uninteresting theme!

Anyone could have written it..

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Crimebuster's Theme is one of my favorite JW themes!

[Romão 2,274]

I love it too. But it's strength is actually how rudimentary it is. The arrangement is great, though

[igger6 894]

You know why Battle of the Heroes and Cinque's Theme both came up so often on the first page of this thread? Because they're the SAME uninteresting theme. You know, the one Giacchino copped for the island motif ("Credit Where Credit is Due") in LOST.

I find a great deal of Tintin uninteresting but still massively enjoyable, and although the "Secret of the Scrolls" melody is gloriously adherent to one of the Maestro's best formulas, it's way too derivative of The Map Room/The Fury/Call of the Crystal/Hedwig's Theme for me to really rank it with Williams' best. Although the best of Tintin is very, very good, way too many of those Haydn-esque mini-motifs sound like castoffs from unwritten Potter scores.

For me, it's anything from Empire of the Sun (minus the awesome "Cadillac of the Skies," for which Hans Zimmer owes the Maestro some of his "Lion King" money) and Nixon. I don't think I'm smart enough for Nixon. (Like most of Williams' concert music.)