Making sense of John Williams' higher education

[Thor 7,490]

As you all know, I'm trying to play Sherlock Holmes over anything Williams-related between 1932 and 1958.

I have some trouble with the timeline in relation to Williams' education. I just can't seem to see any kind of degree in there due to the short timeframes.

UCLA:

He finished North Hollywood High School in 1950. High school usually ends in the spring semester, right? So let's say he was immediately immatriculated into UCLA in the fall of 1950. Then -- according to the extremely helpful 'air force' facsimile we've all seen -- it was air force duties from late 1951 or early 1952. After all, when he transferred to Newfoundland in March-1952, he had already had basic training and a stint in Tucson, Arizona. So he would need some months for all of that. That leaves three semesters at UCLA -- maximum! Now, I'm no expert in American education systems in the 50's, but there isn't much of a degree in 1 1/2 year. This is where he was tutored by Mario Tedelnuovo-Tedesco in composition, and composed at least two student pieces -- the piano sonata and the wind quintet.

JULLIARD:

He was discharged from the air force in January-1955. Let's say he had already applied for Julliard while he was in the air force and had been accepted (maybe he used one of his "shore leaves" to fly down to New York for auditions), so he could start immediately at Julliard in January, without having to wait untill next semester. Now, we know for a fact that Williams had moved back to LA in October-1956, because that is when he recorded his first ever album, "The John Towner Touch". Since you're usually not thrown into that from scratch, it's fair to assume that he had moved there even a bit earlier to "connect" with the industry and network. Maybe also to marry LA-based Barbara Ruick that same year. So....that leaves three semesters at Julliard - maximum! Again, not enough to get a degree.

If you combine the two educations, it's 6 semesters (3 years), which is maybe enough for a bachelor's degree. But again, I'm not an expert on American systems for higher education in the 50's.

What do you think? Does all of this make sense? How would you make sense of it?

[filmmusic 1,825]

I don't understand where you're getting at Thor.

You're asking if John Williams has a degree on musical composition or something?

[Thor 7,490]

I don't understand where you're getting at Thor.

You're asking if John Williams has a degree on musical composition or something?

It's all part of my research.

I'm just trying to make sense of these particular periods in his life, which is very under-documented. What did he study, what did he compose/do while studying and what was the end result. I've not been able to find any information on his degree yet. But even if it's just a bachelor, I can't seem to make the timeline work properly.

Maybe if someone more knowledgeable than I about American education systems in the 50's can enlighten me.

I've always been fascinated by education, and what type of education my creative heroes has -- whether they are self-taught or schooled.

[ShowUStheHOOK 8]

I'm no expert on this either and kind of doubtful my opinion matters, but I think the hours system was somewhat different

in other words, now 3 classes at a regular college would typically be 9 credit hours. Based on my grandmother's brief college experience, I think around the time williams went to UCLA and JULLIARD the measurement of hours differed. Would make sense why the math doesn't add up now.

[Thor 7,490]

Thanks, Hook. Yeah, I'm sure there must be something going on with the credits/hours thingies here.

[Henry B 50]

Today there are some diploma programs that allow students to earn an exclusively musical education with an emphasis on performance in lieu of a bachelor's degree. Maybe Williams went through something like that. More likely he simply dropped out of school for professional opportunities. I think the degree was less important then. Even today, I've met a couple college professors with only bachelor's degrees, or not even a bachelor's. Performance (or composition) is the most important credential, even though the master's and/or doctorate helps a lot.

[Uni 306]

WHERE ARE THE MISSING TWO AND A HALF YEARS?!?!

There's an Oliver Stone movie in this fer sure. (The greatest irony? Williams composing the score. . . !)

- Uni

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Back then serious musical training was received from mentorship rather than formal classroom instruction. You studied with the greats if you had the talent.

Listing "studied under Miklos Rosza" would give you better credentials than any paper even from the great Juilliard school.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

he apprenticed at both schools and spent more time doing that then actually trying to get a degree. dont forget, he played on the Funny Face recording when he was 8 or 10 years old. His father was extremely well connected in hollywood, therefore making john well connected. How else could you explain him being able to record a cd for distribution by columbia at that age without already knowing a lot of people in the industry and/or having any sort of fame yet. Also, dont forget that he played on all the Stan Gets quintet recordings, what would probobly be around the same time, or earlier?

I would have to say that he trained with the best, learned what he needed, and then used his fathers connections to find work.

Dont know how helpful this video will be, or if youve seen it, but it does have some pretty good information about his early life

[Thor 7,490]

I would have to say that he trained with the best, learned what he needed, and then used his fathers connections to find work.

Yes, that is my suspicion as well. He got a lot "for free" that way, which may be a reason for why he opted out of getting a degree in favour of professional gigs. Still, it would be very interesting to know exactly what he studied and what it eventually turned out as. To complicate matters further, someone says he returned to UCLA after Juilliard to complete some stuff. Others yet again claim he also attended Los Angeles City College in the first bit before the air force. There's no way the timeline can account for all of this -- yet another reason for why the world cries out for a proper, official Williams biography with input from the man himself.

Thanks for the video. I've seen it a couple of times before, and it is useful in assessing some of JW's relationship to his father's work.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I'm quite sure there are people close to JW who have gathered useful biographic materials for future books. However, the Maestro is quite a humble and private person, hence he probably prefers to keep private some of his own early life.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

yes, ive also heard that about la city college. im not sure if its possible, but perhaps you can actually contact the schools and ask? im sure all that informations private, buts its possible if you say your just gathering research?

[Thor 7,490]

Yes, I need to find out more about that LACC thing.

What we don't realize is that we already have a great resource here at JWFAN, namely the sticky article thread! I skimmed through all of them last night, with the period 1932-1958 in mind, and pulled out a few interesting quotes that I can use.

As far as this topic is concerned, these lines proved interesting:

"His first college work was at UCLA and at Los Angeles City College - music students in california migrated from school to school in those days according to where the action was."

Also:

"He served in the Air Force, conducting and arranging for bands, and spent a year at Juilliard, working with legendary pianist Rosina Lhévinne. "

And finally:

"I guess I wanted to play Rachmaninoff with the New York Philharmonic." The route to that was study with Madame Lhevinne, who was then the most celebrated piano pedagogue active in America. "When she accepted me I was 22 or 23, which was very old by the standard of her students. One day when i was toiling away in a practice room, I heard these crashing octaves and fabulous thirds coming from next door, and when I went over to look, there was this little kid from Texas named John Browning. Rosina never gave me the impression that I could handle a concert career like that, but I had a nice relationship with her anyway; she taught from a humanistic rather than technical standpoint. and she encouraged me to write music. I showed her some of my arrangements, and she was amazed I could handle the orchestra like that - not everyone who could play 'La Campanella' could do that; she like the fact I knew somthing about music.

"The best piano playing I ever did in my life was at my audition for her. I remember I played a Bach Prelude and Fugure, and she stopped me and asked waht was going on. I said it was 'like a canon.' 'Vy do you say it is like a canon,' she said in her Russian accent, 'ven it is a canon?'"

After his studies with Lhevinne, Williams went back to California because his family was there - as well as a young singer whom he was to marry, Barbara Ruick. "

---

This means he only spent ONE year (two semesters), not three semesters at Juilliard. My guess is that it was January-1955 to December-1955, and then he moved back to LA in January-1956, in time for his wedding to Ruick and getting to 'network' before his first studio recordings later the same year. It also explains why a degree wasn't that important. They moved around to where the 'action was', i.e. the good tutors.

Of course, it still doesn't account for the timeline properly, especially not if you're putting Los Angeles City College in there, as well as more UCLA studies in 1956.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not sure I am comfortable with how people here seem obsessed with invading JW's privacy.

His school records are his own concern, and if he explicitly wanted then to be known publicly he would have made arrangements.

Same with details regarding his mother.

It is all a little bit disturbing Thor.

Just because JW is a public figure, doesn't not mean YOU have the right to know everything.

[Thor 7,490]

I don't see what's disturbing about it at all. I'm gathering all of this information for a possible book down the line. Since there are no biographies about the man that go in-depth, we have to put the pieces together ourselves. All great artists deserve a good biography that also cover some personal details -- personal details that may have an influence on the actual music as well. Richard Dyer tried to do some of the same in his early 80's interviews for the Boston Pops.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on that, Stefan. In fact, I'm going to intensify my research of this period in the coming time.

[WilliamsStarShip2282 308]

I don't see what's disturbing about it at all. I'm gathering all of this information for a possible book down the line. Since there are no biographies about the man that go in-depth, we have to put the pieces together ourselves. All great artists deserve a good biography that also cover some personal details -- personal details that may have an influence on the actual music as well. Richard Dyer tried to do some of the same in his early 80's interviews for the Boston Pops.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on that, Stefan. In fact, I'm going to intensify my research of this period in the coming time.

great quotes you found! really interesting. but i dont find this invading his privacy, seeing as its part of his music career. Its not like you're hiding in the hedges outside his kitchen window....... I think its perfectly acceptable to being doing this kind of research. I would love to read a good book about williams!

[Ludwig 1,120]

Its not like you're hiding in the hedges outside his kitchen window.......

Like so -

[gkgyver 1,645]

There are people on this board whose higher education I would rather like to make sense of than Williams'.

[Thor 7,490]

There are people on this board whose higher education I would rather like to make sense of than Williams'.

That's actually a good idea for a separate topic in the off-topic forum!

[Thor 7,490]

From http://www.lacitycollege.edu/public/news/j-williams.htm :

His words inspired many students, as he explained how after first composing music at North Hollywood High School, he left UCLA to come to LACC’s music department because we had a jazz stage band.

“The instructors were fantastic,” he said of LACCs music and history department faculty. “They really turned me on.”

Williams only attended one semester at LACC before he was drafted, but chose to go into the Air Force during the Korean War.

Interesting.

I read in another thread here at jwfan that Williams entered the air force in January 1951, but this seems highly unlikely. I would guess he was drafted in late 1951, at the earliest. If he went into the air force in, let's say, December of 1951, he might have managed two semesters at UCLA (fall-1950, spring-1951) and one at LACC (fall-1951) before he had to go. Besides, he composed his piano sonata in 1951, and he didn't do that during army training!

In any case, I would love to have a transcript of Williams' Q&A at the LACC back in 2008 (where the above quote is taken from).

[Uni 306]

I don't see what's disturbing about it at all. I'm gathering all of this information for a possible book down the line. Since there are no biographies about the man that go in-depth, we have to put the pieces together ourselves. All great artists deserve a good biography that also cover some personal details -- personal details that may have an influence on the actual music as well. Richard Dyer tried to do some of the same in his early 80's interviews for the Boston Pops.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on that, Stefan. In fact, I'm going to intensify my research of this period in the coming time.

As a personal pursuit, aiming for a future goal, it's probably no big deal. But you'll likely have to plan on publishing your biography posthumously (meaning after JW's death, of course—not yours). I speak from experience on this.

I was on the same trail back in 2001 or so. I spent some time talking with Michael Matessino about the prospect of researching a biography directly, contacting Williams, his publicist, agent, etc. to get the necessary details. Mike made it pretty clear how difficult that sort of thing would prove (as I'm sure you've discovered yourself). He indicated that the value Williams places on his privacy would make publishing a biography difficult, and if I went ahead with it anyway, it would be something that Williams himself would probably not approve of. He wasn't trying to be discouraging, just realistic.

So I scrapped my plans and moved on to another project. I can deal with an uphill battle when it comes to the footwork involved in research; but displeasing the man himself so I could make a name for myself was, and is, something I'm not willing to do.

- Uni

[Thor 7,490]

That's probably true, Uni. But untill such a time when a project like this is feasible, I find it quite useful to "head start" on the research part.

[Thor 7,490]

Is it just me or are American institutions terribly slow in responding to e-mail requests?

It's now more than a month since I sent an e-mail to LACC and UCLA about the Williams questions, but still no response.

[Thor 7,490]

While we continue to wait, there's another piece of information I can add to complicate things further.

Quote

 

David Horn: When did your involvement with music begin? In New York, or when you came to Hollywood?

John Williams: I first began studying music, if I can call it that, in the 1930s as a piano student. I’ve always had good teachers…who were colleagues of my father… worked seriously at the piano through my teenage years and studied with Rosina Lhévinne at Juilliard briefly in the early middle ’50s, both in New York at the Juilliard School and later out here at the old Los Angeles Conservatory on Figueroa Street, where she used to come give master classes in the summer.

 

So....this means he studied a bit more when he returned to LA in 1956 -- most likely inbetween gigs for films and jazz albums during the summer. I don't know what Los Angeles Conservatory is. Is it related to UCLA or LACC in any way?

[BelS901 0]

Hi there. It's really interesting post, i'm glad to read it. Especially i like this part: "If you combine the two educations, it's 6 semesters (3 years), which is maybe enough for a bachelor's degree. But again, I'm not an expert on American systems for higher education in the 50's." I didn't find it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Williams. So It would be great if you share this information at https://pro-papers.com/gb/biography-writing. I'll be thanksful.

[karelm 2,912]

Don't forget his Harvard degree same year as Darth Vader.

John Williams, Doctor of Music

John Williams is one of America’s most accomplished and successful composers for film and the concert stage.

His 40-year artistic partnership with director Steven Spielberg has resulted in many of Hollywood’s most acclaimed and successful films, including all seven “Star Wars” films and the first three “Harry Potter” films.

In addition to his work in film and television, Williams has composed numerous works for the concert stage and served as music director and laureate conductor of the Boston Pops Orchestra from 1980-1993.

As one of the nation’s most distinguished and contributive musical voices, Williams has received a variety of prestigious awards, including the National Medal of Arts, the Kennedy Center Honors, the Olympic Order, and numerous Academy Awards, Grammy Awards, Emmy Awards, and Golden Globe Awards. In 2016, Williams received the 44th Life Achievement Award from the American Film Institute — the first composer to receive this honor.

 

James Earl Jones, Doctor of Arts

James Earl Jones is an acclaimed actor who has performed on stage, television, and in films. Most notably, Jones’ voice is known as Darth Vader in “Star Wars” and Mufasa in Disney’s “The Lion King.”

Since his Broadway debut in 1957, Jones has won numerous and distinguished awards, including the National Medal of Arts, the John F. Kennedy Center Honors, and two Tony Awards. In 2011, the Board of Governors of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences presented him with an honorary Oscar. Jones also was awarded a Lifetime Achievement honor at the 2017 Tony Awards.

In 2004, Jones was recognized with the Harvard Foundation Humanitarian Award. Earlier this year, Jones starred in the American Repertory Theater’s “Night of the Iguana” at Harvard.

 

On 5/16/2013 at 1:32 AM, Thor said:

Is it just me or are American institutions terribly slow in responding to e-mail requests?

It's now more than a month since I sent an e-mail to LACC and UCLA about the Williams questions, but still no response.

 

What was your email request?  Are you asking something that is public record?  I agree with others that JW's privacy should be respected if something is not in public record (an official bio, program notes, mentioned in interview, etc.), he has a reasonable right to privacy.   Your email request might be in the trash can.

[thx99 1,740]

20 minutes ago, karelm said:

What was your email request?  Are you asking something that is public record?  I agree with others that JW's privacy should be respected if something is not in public record (an official bio, program notes, mentioned in interview, etc.), he has a reasonable right to privacy. 

 

Not only that but universities typically cannot divulge attendance records or degree verification information without the person’s written authorization. Doing so would violate privacy laws, I believe.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

22 minutes ago, thx99 said:

 

Not only that but universities typically cannot divulge attendance records or degree verification information without the person’s written authorization. Doing so would violate privacy laws, I believe.

 

Indeed!  FERPA protects students’ academic records.  All a university can release is the student’s name (basically validating they are/were a student) and basic directory information and then only if the requesting party has “legitimate educational interest” which is completely up to the discretion of the university.

 

This is part of my day job

[Nick Parker 3,040]

26 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Indeed!  FERPA protects students’ academic records.  All a university can release is the student’s name (basically validating they are/were a student) and basic directory information and then only if the requesting party has “legitimate educational interest” which is completely up to the discretion of the university.

 

This is part of my day job

 

If two yahoos can get a chat with Williams by playing trumpet in front of his house, then I say we can get whatever we want from UCLA, including all of his meal receipts from the university food court!

[Incanus 5,714]

3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

 

If two yahoos can get a chat with Williams by playing trumpet in front of his house, then I say we can get whatever we want from UCLA, including all of his meal receipts from the university food court!

Perhaps we could try playing trumpet on the university's front lawn and see how that works out.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I’ll distract them playing trumpet while one of y’all break into the records room

[karelm 2,912]

Wait a second, I just realized we've been responding to thor from five years ago!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

11 minutes ago, karelm said:

Wait a second, I just realized we've been responding to thor from five years ago!

 

[Thor 7,490]

On 7/18/2018 at 1:31 AM, karelm said:

Don't forget his Harvard degree same year as Darth Vader.

 

I don't count honorary degrees.

 

On 7/18/2018 at 1:31 AM, karelm said:

 

What was your email request?  Are you asking something that is public record?  I agree with others that JW's privacy should be respected if something is not in public record (an official bio, program notes, mentioned in interview, etc.), he has a reasonable right to privacy.   Your email request might be in the trash can.

 

My request was merely the exact date/period for his studies there. No contents or grades or anything like that.