Making sense of John Williams' air force stint

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's a disaster! Thor's carefully assembled timeline now lies in ruins!

 

I hope they will indeed release that new version of The American Journey 

[Miguel Andrade 1,262]

Awesome! I'm going to watch it right away

[Thor 7,478]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

It's a disaster! Thor's carefully assembled timeline now lies in ruins!

 

I hope they will indeed release that new version of The American Journey 

 

No more in ruin than it was before. Even Williams himself couldn't remember if he began in 51 or 52 -- as I expected.

 

But thank you so much for this! It just shows us that the world SCREAMS for a proper, in-depth interview with the man, where he at least tries to enter some obscure corners of his past.

 

There was ONE major revelation in the interview, though -- apparently, the wind quintet (long suspected to be a student piece) was written in the air force; I didn't quite make out if it was in Arizona or Newfoundland, but I'll listen more carefully a few times to find out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In the end, does it really matter if it was 51 or 52 though?

[Thor 7,478]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

In the end, does it really matter if it was 51 or 52 though?

 

Yes, it matters a great deal, because it has consequences for a whole bunch of other stuff in the timeline. But if you're not obsessed with early John Williams history like I am, I guess it doesn't matter much.

[karelm 2,903]

Great post, airmanjerm!  Since he is UCLA class of 1954, making him 22 at the time, does military service count as college time?  How did he spend 2 years in military and still be 22 when graduating?

 

[artguy360 1,843]

Oh man, when a fan asks JW to compose a new piece of music,,,awkward.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well he's from the Airforce. 

[Incanus 5,713]

Thanks for sharing the interview @airmanjerm!

 

Very interesting stuff and always great when Williams talks of some of the early days of his career as a musician.

[zoltan_902 141]

Awesome; though why it sounds like it was recorded underwater is a mystery.

[Thor 7,478]

8 hours ago, karelm said:

Great post, airmanjerm!  Since he is UCLA class of 1954, making him 22 at the time, does military service count as college time?  How did he spend 2 years in military and still be 22 when graduating?

 

 

Williams appears to be 'Class of '53' according to UCLA, not 54. This means that he must have studied -- and in fact graduated -- while he was in the air force (this is regardless of whether or not he enrolled in 51 or 52, btw). It also begs the question of when he studied composition with Tedesco at UCLA. I don't believe the ol' Italian mentor travelled to Arizona and Newfoundland to tutor him. Thus # 1: This can only be before he entered the air force; Thus # 2: it can only be in 1951 and Thus # 3; I still believe (for now) he entered the air force in 1952, despite what the earlier article states.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Castelnuovo-Tedesco was based in LA, surely JW studied with him before serving the Air Force.

[Thor 7,478]

1 hour ago, TownerFan said:

Castelnuovo-Tedesco was based in LA, surely JW studied with him before serving the Air Force.

 

Exactly. Even if he did some remaining UCLA stuff during the air force -- graduating midway through his service -- the bulk and basis of the composition studies with Castelnuovo-Tedesco would need to have been done prior to the air force, especially everything that required on-campus activities. And since we know for a fact that he had one semester at LACC immediately before enrolling, the on-campus year at UCLA would need to be the fall of 1950 and the spring of 1951. Alternatively one semester at UCLA (fall 1950) and one semester at LACC (spring 1951), and then enrolling in the fall of 1951.

 

It's pure deduction. There's simply no way he could finish high school in June 1950, and then jam LACC and UCLA into one single semester before enrolling in January 1951. Sorry, airmanjerm!

[Damien F 1,742]

On 11/4/2013 at 11:28 AM, Thor said:

JWFAN member dfenton claimed in a previous thread that he was in Korea at some point, but I have found no evidence to suggest this.

 

This is my first time seeing this thread and I have absolutely no memory of suggesting JW was in Korea, or why I would even make that claim. I went through my posts and can't see any reference to Korea either.

 

Maybe I did but I definitely can't remember it.

[Jay 37,322]

Thor seems mixed up

 

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22899-some-john-williams-trivia/

[Thor 7,478]

1 hour ago, dfenton85 said:

 

This is my first time seeing this thread and I have absolutely no memory of suggesting JW was in Korea, or why I would even make that claim. I went through my posts and can't see any reference to Korea either.

 

Maybe I did but I definitely can't remember it.

 

Yes, I confused you with mahler3 (aka Tim, who I know) at the time. Sorry about that.

[TownerFan 4,983]

15 hours ago, Thor said:

It just shows us that the world SCREAMS for a proper, in-depth interview with the man, where he at least tries to enter some obscure corners of his past.

 

In my humble opinion, I think right now the only one able to sit down with JW and let him talk at length about his 60+ years career would probably be an esteemed colleague musician he respects and admires, like Stéphane Denève or Gustavo Dudamel, i.e. someone who knows well his music and is able to talk about all the ins and outs. That would probably be an interesting angle (something he maybe would be much keener rather than a generic conversation with a journalist or a music writer). It's interesting that Morricone did the same thing and it morphed into the first official autobiography that's been just published here in Italy.

 

However, Wiliams reallydoesn't seem interested in doing something like this, at least so far. He's really humble and doesn't like to talk a lot about himself and he also probably feels he's still "in the kitchen" and it's still too early to sit down and look back at his whole career  But who knows, maybe one day he will.

[Thor 7,478]

14 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

 

In my humble opinion, I think right now the only one able to sit down with JW and let him talk at length about his 60+ years career would probably be an esteemed colleague musician he respects and admires, like Stéphane Denève or Gustavo Dudamel, i.e. someone who knows well his music and is able to talk about all the ins and outs. That would probably be an interesting angle (something he maybe would be much keener rather than a generic conversation with a journalist or a music writer). It's interesting that Morricone did the same thing and it morphed into the first official autobiography that's been just published here in Italy.

 

I agree that he would probably be more likely to do it with someone like that, and I'm not saying it wouldn't be interesting in some way, but personally I'd prefer someone who knew the details of his early life and career. Of course I think I would be the perfect interviewer myself, but the chances of that happening is zero. So then my hopes are for someone like Jon Burlingame -- perhaps in the style of the TV days interview he did with Goldsmith a way back. I know that Burlingame and Williams know each other, and Jon has interviewed John on several occasions in the past.

[airmanjerm 78]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

It's pure deduction. There's simply no way he could finish high school in June 1950, and then jam LACC and UCLA into one single semester before enrolling in January 1951. Sorry, airmanjerm!

 

It's no sweat Thor, it doesn't offend me when you disagree with my ideas about JW's timeline, since we're both grasping at straws. I typically just tend to go with the published information like the other article I just posted last week, but naturally it could contain errors so no biggie. I also understand what the AF Band job involves, and most people don't realize that you can not only write your own music (as in the wind quintet) but also take college courses while serving. Williams even mentions taking courses at the Univ of Arizona in this video, which I don't think has ever come up. Then again, he may not have meant himself personally. Oh well. 

 

I'm thrilled that Col Lang asked JW about where the music he wrote back then might be. I've always wondered if it might be floating around somewhere.

[Thor 7,478]

15 minutes ago, airmanjerm said:

 

I'm thrilled that Col Lang asked JW about where the music he wrote back then might be. I've always wondered if it might be floating around somewhere.

 

He, he....yeah, we're all grasping desperately at straws here.

 

I wonder if Williams ever wrote anything beyond the wind quintet while serving, or if it was all arrangements. Is there no library that stores these things for posterity?

[karelm 2,903]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Exactly. Even if he did some remaining UCLA stuff during the air force -- graduating midway through his service -- the bulk and basis of the composition studies with Castelnuovo-Tedesco would need to have been done prior to the air force, especially everything that required on-campus activities. And since we know for a fact that he had one semester at LACC immediately before enrolling, the on-campus year at UCLA would need to be the fall of 1950 and the spring of 1951. Alternatively one semester at UCLA (fall 1950) and one semester at LACC (spring 1951), and then enrolling in the fall of 1951.

 

It's pure deduction. There's simply no way he could finish high school in June 1950, and then jam LACC and UCLA into one single semester before enrolling in January 1951. Sorry, airmanjerm!

 

It is possible that some of these time frames overlap.  One can be a full time student in one school and take classes at another that would then transfer for credit.  Also, he wasn't studying composition right?  He was studying performance so he could take private lessons with the composition faculty (Castelnuovo-Tedesco) and that would make the timelines fit when you think while he was a student at one place, he took credits at another and private lessons with faculty at anytime during that window.

[Thor 7,478]

23 minutes ago, karelm said:

 

It is possible that some of these time frames overlap.  One can be a full time student in one school and take classes at another that would then transfer for credit.  Also, he wasn't studying composition right?  He was studying performance so he could take private lessons with the composition faculty (Castelnuovo-Tedesco) and that would make the timelines fit when you think while he was a student at one place, he took credits at another and private lessons with faculty at anytime during that window.

 

There are different sources here -- some say he studied composition with C-T when he was actually AT the UCLA campus, other sources claimed he studied privately with him WHILE he was at the UCLA campus. Either way, this was before the air force. We know that he studied orchestration privately with Robert van Epps, but this was while he was in high school. Maybe the confusion stems from there.

 

But yeah -- there's definitely a LOT of overlap here.

[Damien F 1,742]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Yes, I confused you with mahler3 (aka Tim, who I know) at the time. Sorry about that.

 

Haha, no problem. My first thought when I saw your post was "why would I possibly think JW was in Korea"

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

10 minutes ago, dfenton85 said:

 

"why would I possibly think JW was in Korea"

 

Killing chinks and keeping Uncle Sam free of Communism!

[Muckchurry 1]

On 4/13/2013 at 5:54 PM, airmanjerm said:

Yes, the whole thing is a little confusing to sort through, but the 1951 is at least a definite.

I'm not being argumentative, please understand Thor, but I think it's highly likely that his entry to the AF was much earlier than December. The reason being that his 6-digit personal number - 389,341 - is much lower than the 420,000 number that was reached by the end of December, 1951. If his number was something closer to 420,000, I'd definitely think it was December.

Again, I'm not being argumentative on purpose, I'm trying to talk through this thing too. It's very difficult to sort through and I don't have the answers either. :-)

Are you using the old AF newspaper article as your source for saying that JW was enrolled in classes at UCLA prior to joining the Air Force? I wonder if it's possible that JW may have been enrolled in classes during the summer? Or even possible that UCLA used the "quarters" system instead of semesters.

ALSO:

Something more trivial but a thing you can edit in your original post:

During the 1950s, March Air Reserve Base was an active duty base, not a reserve base. So, it was just called (at the time) March Air Force Base. It wasn't changed to a Reserve base until just a few years ago, as a result of the BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) decision.

The band that was at March AFB (which had been the for a long time - the same band that JW had been in) was decommissioned in the early 1990s, and the personnel and equipment transferred to Travis Air Force Base in northern CA where it combined with the AF Band of the Golden West. This is the band that I spent the first 12 years of my military service in, and a few of our members were guys who had even been in the March AFB Band.

 

Oh yeah, another thing.

I don't have a CLUE if this means anything, and even if it's the right guy, it's not a big deal. But....

I wonder if this article (by Roger Ebert) is about the same Paul Galloway who wrote that article about Johnny Williams back in 1954. This Paul Galloway (who eventually became fairly well-known in the Newspaper industry) would have been 20 years old at the time, and he did serve in the Army, so he could definitely have been assigned to the Air Force Public Affairs office at March AFB in 1954.

http://www.rogerebert.com/interviews/paul-galloway-a-beloved-legend-sheep-galloway-sheep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Galloway

 

On the topic of the identity of Paul Galloway, author of the article on John Williams in his Air Force band days, I believe that he is NOT the gentleman with a long career in the neswpaper business. I was stationed with the Air Force band in England 1962-1965. My supervisor was a Paul Galloway whose home of record was Sunnymead, CA, adjacent to March AFB. He was stationed at the March AFB band sometime in the mid-50's. Paul was a fine arranger and wrote many arrangements for different bands in his 20+ years in AF bands. Although Paul never mentioned knowing John Williams, I would imagine that time was prior to John Williams' fame. It just seems highly coincidental that my Paul Galloway was at March AFB in the same time frame as john Williams.

[Jay 37,322]

Aha!

[martybmusic 54]

Apologies for bumping this thread (long-time lurker/admirer, first-time poster) but ran into this gem of an interview with Don Williams where he mentions JW returning from the Air Force and goes into some detail on the period. It may not further elucidate the timeline, but thought it might be of interest to Thor and others.

 

Cheers!

 

 

(incidentally, that YouTube channel has some other terrific clips, including an interview with David Cripps [principal Horn for the LSO circa '77] talking about the Star Wars recording sessions)

[Thor 7,478]

Cool find, marty. Alas, his mention of Williams returning from the air force in '53 makes no sense whatsoever. It's smack in the middle of his service. He must be misremembering. But other than that, cool to hear him speak. I've never heard that before, and I'm taken by how similar he sounds to his older brother.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Interesting how you dismiss information that doesn't fit in your established timeline 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Thor 7,478]

It's got nothing to do with that. I'm sitting on LOTS of sources -- each with presumable credence -- and one has to choose which one to follow. In the case of Don's statements here, it goes against sources like newspaper articles or university logs and previous statements and even Williams' own remarks. Plus, it collides with sources of events preceding and following that year. This is something that you find out when you delve as deep into this material as I have done. At some point, you just have to choose a timeline that correlates with the most sources. Untill Williams himself would clear it up (which is never).

[Thor 7,478]

Here's another video from the same event:

 

 

I know this has nothing whatsoever to do with Williams' air force stint, but I can't stop being fascinated by this. It's the first time I've heard Don talk, and once again I'm struck by the similarity in voice and mannerisms, yet WHAT he's saying is far more 'acerbic' and gutsy than what John would say in similar settings. Maybe it's the age difference; Don is my dad's age. I've not been able to find his exact birth date, but he's a native of LA, which means he must have been born after 1948, when the family moved there. My dad was born in 1950.

[martybmusic 54]

31 minutes ago, Thor said:

once again I'm struck by the similarity in voice and mannerisms, yet WHAT he's saying is far more 'acerbic' and gutsy than what John would say in similar settings.

 

So well put, I felt the same way stumbling on these. In addition to the brotherly connection, there seems to be something distinct in vocal cadence/manner to the old hollywood music circle that is a rare bird these days (though I do feel a trace of this in Conrad Pope and others https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI76M0qvkP4).  At any rate, would love to hear more from Don at some point

 

 

[BrotherSound 2,242]

@Thor Found a minor tidbit of early John Williams history: the date he joined the AFM Local 47 (The Musicians Union of Los Angeles), August 25th 1950.

 

He also joined the Boston local July 30th, 1980, which was not long after he began his Pops stint, of course.

 

Interesting that there’s no record of him for the New York City local…

[Thor 7,478]

That's great. His membership in the union would then neatly overlap with his beginning at UCLA. I'm guessing music students also needed to be unionized, what with all the extra-curricular activities.

[karelm 2,903]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

That's great. His membership in the union would then neatly overlap with his beginning at UCLA. I'm guessing music students also needed to be unionized, what with all the extra-curricular activities.

 

You don't need to be unionized if you're a student but this is probably an indication that he was already doing studio/session work while a student so signed up to get the benefits like pension, scale, etc.  It could also be that his dad, who was already a session player, advised him to join the union and he could get his first gigs in sessions based on recommendations from his dad type of thing too.

[Thor 7,478]

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

Fastforward to the summer of 1958, when Williams signed with Revue. At that time, the early days of people like Jimmy Hoffa, music unions in LA (and elsewhere) urged TV production companies to employ composers for original music rather than just re-use existing material. Of course, they still continued to re-use well into the 60s, but it is to Williams' benefit that the unions were getting stronger at this time. Stanley Wilson, the music head of Revue, had to take this into account when he hired several composers for the second season of M SQUAD -- of which Williams was one of the names on his list.

 

So I think it was a very wise idea of Williams to sign up already in 1950, straight out of high school.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

In retrospect he didn't have to sign up for pension, though.

[karelm 2,903]

18 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

In retrospect he didn't have to sign up for pension, though.

 

Yeah he did.  Rumor has it he squandered his fortune on gambling and hookers. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

I believe that was Previn.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

On 6/8/2016 at 12:34 PM, Thor said:

the composition studies with Castelnuovo-Tedesco

 

Perhaps most of his studies with CT were done by mail.