John Williams Plagiarizing Himself

[Datameister 2,041]

well, it's a special case

Or similar to the re-use of previous music in RotS and KotCS (to a lesser degree)

It's more like "intend use of the exact same music"

Horner's plagiarism involves cues that have no connections

I'm talking less about the reuse of material from HP:SS and more about the nearly-note-for-note duplication of passages from AOTC, Jurassic Park, and so forth. Those have no connections, either. But you're right that it's a special case.

[Jay 37,339]

Wait, Jurassic Park is in HPCOS? For some reason I am forgetting where at the moment!

[Incanus 5,714]

Wasn't there a small snippet resembling the Goat Bait music from JP in the Duelling Club starting at about 3 minute mark into the COS track?

[Jay 37,339]

Wasn't there a small snippet resembling the Goat Bait music from JP in the Duelling Club starting at about 3 minute mark into the COS track?

Just checked - 3:08 and again at 3:19 is VAGUELY like Goat Bait, yeah..... I wonder if that is what Joe was referring to, though

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

JW's Smallville theme from Superman obviously has it's origins in The Cowboys

[Incanus 5,714]

JW's Smallville theme from Superman obviously has it's origins in The Cowboys

Yeah it has that same "open country" feel to it, which might be a factor in the similarity of the melody, JW's brain somehow honing on that idea.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Self-plagiarism

[Smeltington 1,436]

"Vernon Gathers Family" turned out to be even more like "No Ticket" than Gilderoy Lockhart's theme. It's definitely rare to get such a carbon copy from Williams. There are plenty of examples where he seems to have gotten a similar idea to one he had in the past, but very few where he seems to be deliberately copying an older composition.

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

Wait, Jurassic Park is in HPCOS? For some reason I am forgetting where at the moment!

I thought he was saying the TLW moment during the Quidditch cue.

[indy4 155]

I don't really mind the self-plagarisms from JW or from Horner. In fact on some of the borderline casese I think it can be almost a good thing, it strengthens the composer's individual style. It's the stealing from other composers that bothers me.

[publicist 4,643]

Which is, if we believe the musically erudite, the very foundation of film music. Or at least i have a friend, she's a pianist and always, and i mean always when i point her to film music names a classical source where it came from. And seldom she is as far-fetched as the usual fan denunciations á la 'there are three notes in TRON that are stolen from DENNIS THE MENACE'.

[indy4 155]

I dunno, I've read some of the comparisons made by respected musicologists, and they can push it sometimes just as much as a lay listener.

[Quintus 5,399]

Something changed after Schindlers List!

Yep. Both the brothers were changed by it.

[Datameister 2,041]

All music has some roots in music that came before it, obviously. And with only a limited number of tones and timbres, ideas are going to repeat themselves, especially within a given composer's oeuvre. Overt "self-plagiarism" is something rather different.

Wasn't there a small snippet resembling the Goat Bait music from JP in the Duelling Club starting at about 3 minute mark into the COS track?

Just checked - 3:08 and again at 3:19 is VAGUELY like Goat Bait, yeah..... I wonder if that is what Joe was referring to, though

About 3:04-3:30 is taken almost note for note from "Goat Bait." Compare those 30-ish seconds to first 30-ish seconds of the Jurassic Park cue. Of course, I give Williams credit for at least choosing a moment (whether intentionally or not) that wasn't used in the final film, and it's not exactly the most iconic moment of the OST, so it's not like a casual moviegoer would be likely to catch it. But still. You could switch the two passages, and they'd function identically.

As for the TLW stuff in the Quidditch action music, it was originally reused in HP:SS, and it's identical to the motif in TLW, although he develops it somewhat differently. So in COS, it's a reuse of a reuse...

[Incanus 5,714]

Which is, if we believe the musically erudite, the very foundation of film music. Or at least i have a friend, she's a pianist and always, and i mean always when i point her to film music names a classical source where it came from. And seldom she is as far-fetched as the usual fan denunciations á la 'there are three notes in TRON that are stolen from DENNIS THE MENACE'.

Wouldn't it suggest that she then believes that all film music is purely derivative even if in reality the composer had no intention of borrowing anything but was trying to come up with a musical solution to scene on his own? And does she manage to find some "classical" antecedent for everything?

On the other hand it is fascinating to see where composers draw their inspiration or stylistic choices from and what informs their own language.

[publicist 4,643]

You know what i mean; if you are into classical music of all kinds since you are five, you don't wear rose-coloured glasses regarding a collage art like film music: a piece from CLEOPATRA makes you notice how North drew from Webern or how the CAPRICORN ONE ostinati comes from Lutoslawski (blabla).

The interpretation about the creativity of these applications is of course where it gets interesting; a classically trained ear seems (often) not to be able to see beyond the fact. I often mock her by saying how the film music is the better piece, anyway but i must say that over the years dramatic film music lost some magic for me - or rather, i enjoy it for what it is and don't heap it on a pedestal - the most original voice of the really famous film composers was Bernard Herrmann, followed by Rózsa (the whole modern Faltermeyer/Zimmer/Tyler school is a different animal).

John Williams of course is a brilliant craftsman in his film music but he is also often very eclectic, sometimes with a wink in his eye (HOME ALONE), sometimes just obnoxious (say HOOK).

[Incanus 5,714]

It is very true that the more you listen the more knowledgeable you become but also a bit more jaded as well as most things stop being new under the sun. And as we have stated most composers' careers include intentional and unintentional borrowings from the great (and lesser) musical literature.

[publicist 4,643]

It is unavoidable and as several Horner interviews put into sharp focus, the to-go approach regarding inspiration/ citation can differ wildly from composer to composer. There is an awful lot of bad and mediocre film music, of course, so a middle-of-the-road stigma will always be there, but on the other hand, so many wonderful pieces and and whole scores are here by now, it can't be ignored, either.

[Uni 306]

And seldom she is as far-fetched as the usual fan denunciations á la 'there are three notes in TRON that are stolen from DENNIS THE MENACE'.

Gawd . . . I swear, if I hear one more person complain about the endlessly-documented TRON/Dennis The Menace three-note crossover, I'm gonna lose it. . . .

- Uni

[Mr. K 12]

Here's something to consider. Filmmakers hire composers the same way they cast actors- they have a pre-conceived notion of the kind of performance they expect that person to accomodate. Most filmmakers wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of hiring someone like, say, Danny Elfman- and ask him to produce a score that sounds like Vangelis' score for Chariots of Fire (although that might be an interesting paradox of style). They expect Elfman to produce an Elfman-esque score.

Same with JW. The opportunities given him by Spielberg to go outside his comfort zone into such varying degrees of genre is not the path most composers have laid out for them. It was damn hard for Horner to break out of the sci-fi/fantasy mould. Elmer Bernstein had simliar problems in the 1980's with comedies. Yes, composers- like most talent in Hollywood- are indeed typecast. Some of the blame of self-plagurism isn't an intentional laziness in their craft, it's a matter of appeasing to the job expected of them. Why do you think they lay down temp-tracks?

Honestly, if you had the means to produce and direct a feature and had Mr. Horner, wouldn't you suggest a throwback to his Wrath of Khan/Krull/Willow days? Damn sure I would!

[Incanus 5,714]

Honestly, if you had the means to produce and direct a feature and had Mr. Horner, wouldn't you suggest a throwback to his Wrath of Khan/Krull/Willow days? Damn sure I would!

I would ban Horner from using the danger motif and I would throw out every reference to his old scores and Prokofiev and Shostakovich and Schumann and he'd be all sulky for the rest of the production. I bet he would try to sneak in familiar stuff somehow when I wasn't looking.

[Brónach 1,302]

He would talk shit of you in interviews forever.

[indy4 155]

John Williams of course is a brilliant craftsman in his film music but he is also often very eclectic, sometimes with a wink in his eye (HOME ALONE), sometimes just obnoxious (say HOOK).

Out of curiosity, what is ripped in Hook? The only thing I'm familiar with is the Dave Grusin/You are the Pan thing, and the "Hook-Napped" rip from the Sea Hawk. Other parts certainly sound Korngold-influenced, but not enough to call it obnoxious IMO. Are there other instances than the two I just mentioned?

[Incanus 5,714]

Even though Williams doesn't note for note quote Stravinsky's Firebird it is obviously inspiration for the busy, fluttering writing for the arrival of Tinkerbell. For the playful material in the same scene Modest Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition also comes to mind, specifically Ballet of the Unhatched Chicks. Where the allusion ends and where borrowing starts is a good question.

[Datameister 2,041]

That Tinkerbell music fascinates me. It manages to sound almost exactly like Stravinsky without doing much actual quoting, like you said.

There's also the material in the track "You Are the Pan" that was quite close to another piece - too close to be accidental, as with "Banning Back Home" - though I can't remember what it was. Someone posted a link a few years back, somewhere on this site.

[Incanus 5,714]

That Tinkerbell music fascinates me. It manages to sound almost exactly like Stravinsky without doing much actual quoting, like you said.

There's also the material in the track "You Are the Pan" that was quite close to another piece - too close to be accidental, as with "Banning Back Home" - though I can't remember what it was. Someone posted a link a few years back, somewhere on this site.

Grusin (Banning Back Home), Korngold (Hook-Napped) and Delerue (The Face of Pan) are cases of heavy influence of temp-track, whether the composer himself let it affect his writing or was asked for close imitation of their feel and style. None of these are note-for-note quotations but mighty close. The Face of Pan main melody is actually better than Delerue's invention in my opinion and that piece shares rather the feel than the exact melody with Williams' cue. Obviously both are aiming for a certain spiritual and delicate mood.

[publicist 4,643]

John Williams of course is a brilliant craftsman in his film music but he is also often very eclectic, sometimes with a wink in his eye (HOME ALONE), sometimes just obnoxious (say HOOK).

Out of curiosity, what is ripped in Hook? The only thing I'm familiar with is the Dave Grusin/You are the Pan thing, and the "Hook-Napped" rip from the Sea Hawk. Other parts certainly sound Korngold-influenced, but not enough to call it obnoxious IMO. Are there other instances than the two I just mentioned?

The thread is called "plagiarizing himself" so i am referring to the hodgepodge of past works HOOK is. That includes HOME ALONE, the ewok music from ROTJ, INDIANA JONES, AMAZING STORIES, WITCHES OF EASTWICK etc.

I started collecting Williams when HOOK came out and it stood really out to me.

[Incanus 5,714]

John Williams of course is a brilliant craftsman in his film music but he is also often very eclectic, sometimes with a wink in his eye (HOME ALONE), sometimes just obnoxious (say HOOK).

Out of curiosity, what is ripped in Hook? The only thing I'm familiar with is the Dave Grusin/You are the Pan thing, and the "Hook-Napped" rip from the Sea Hawk. Other parts certainly sound Korngold-influenced, but not enough to call it obnoxious IMO. Are there other instances than the two I just mentioned?

The thread is called "plagiarizing himself" so i am referring to the hodgepodge of past works HOOK is. That includes HOME ALONE, the ewok music from ROTJ, INDIANA JONES, AMAZING STORIES, WITCHES OF EASTWICK etc.

I started collecting Williams when HOOK came out and it stood really out to me.

I would wager that there must have been a good amount of temp-track from those scores in this film. Even one of the trailers was scored with the Witches of Eastwick.

I hear stylistic similarities between some of the above scores you mention and Hook but not much all out borrowing (well nearly concurrent Home Alone and hints of Witches of Eastwick more than others.). But that is just my JW-apologist side speaking.

[Datameister 2,041]

Grusin (Banning Back Home), Korngold (Hook-Napped) and Delerue (The Face of Pan) are cases of heavy influence of temp-track, whether the composer himself let it affect his writing or was asked for close imitation of their feel and style. None of these are note-for-note quotations but mighty close. The Face of Pan main melody is actually better than Delerue's invention in my opinion and that piece shares rather the feel than the exact melody with Williams' cue. Obviously both are aiming for a certain spiritual and delicate mood.

Agreed on all counts!

[publicist 4,643]

Yeah, but this is Incanus-style beancounting...

I don't care if he changes three notes, the general approach is so similar, never reaching for a film-specific musical voice that HOOk never seems to coalesce into a convincing whole (this plagued FAR AND AWAY, too, to a certain degree).

I stands to reason that shortly after those filmic misfires Williams obviously decided to shift gears (at least till HARRY POTTER came along).

The Face of Pan main melody is actually better than Delerue's invention in my opinion and that piece shares rather the feel than the exact melody with Williams' cue. Obviously both are aiming for a certain spiritual and delicate mood.

Apples and oranges. Watch AGNES OF GOD and then tell me Delerue isn't a better fit for it.

[crocodile 8,000]

John Williams of course is a brilliant craftsman in his film music but he is also often very eclectic, sometimes with a wink in his eye (HOME ALONE), sometimes just obnoxious (say HOOK).

Out of curiosity, what is ripped in Hook? The only thing I'm familiar with is the Dave Grusin/You are the Pan thing, and the "Hook-Napped" rip from the Sea Hawk. Other parts certainly sound Korngold-influenced, but not enough to call it obnoxious IMO. Are there other instances than the two I just mentioned?

The thread is called "plagiarizing himself" so i am referring to the hodgepodge of past works HOOK is. That includes HOME ALONE, the ewok music from ROTJ, INDIANA JONES, AMAZING STORIES, WITCHES OF EASTWICK etc.

I started collecting Williams when HOOK came out and it stood really out to me.

There is some Firebird in there as well, especially in the Tinkerbell arrival scene.

What many friends of mine fail to comprehend is that film music is not concert music. Neither it is a genre. The purely musical structure doesn't matter as much. And those supposed "borrowings" seems to be a part of its DNA. After all it's function is to tap into our collective unconcious, if you will. Film music is an entirely separate artform from music altogether (at least what most people understand as music anyway) even if musical language is very much a part of it. Most of my friends don't get that. Also, they think it has no meaningful impact on storytelling anyway, only in the most crude way.

Karol

[Datameister 2,041]

I'd say there is a film-specific musical voice in much Hook - but there are also cues that are conspicuously different, and of course, there are abundant influences from past works by Williams and others.

[publicist 4,643]

But FIREBIRD is Stravinsky, so no self-plagiarism.

[crocodile 8,000]

So they were not the same person?

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

I can picture the christening ceremony:

Priest: "I christen you John Towner... (turning to John Williams Sr.) Isn't this a tad too much Mr. Williams?

John Williams Sr.:"No, I don't think so. Just go on with it."

Priest: Ok...John Towner Stravinsky Shostakovich Prokofiev Herrmann Korngold Rózsa Williams."

[indy4 155]

Thanks everyone--I hear the Firebird similarities now, and you have all inspired me to take a listen t othe full ballet in the near future.

[chuck 154]

I can picture the christening ceremony:

Priest: "I christen you John Towner... (turning to John Williams Sr.) Isn't this a tad too much Mr. Williams?

John Williams Sr.:"No, I don't think so. Just go on with it."

Priest: Ok...John Towner Stravinsky Shostakovich Prokofiev Herrmann Korngold Rózsa Williams."

Wow. His father would have been a prophet if he can foretell the greatness of Hermann, Korngold and Rozsa in film music... in 1932.

[Incanus 5,714]

I can picture the christening ceremony:

Priest: "I christen you John Towner... (turning to John Williams Sr.) Isn't this a tad too much Mr. Williams?

John Williams Sr.:"No, I don't think so. Just go on with it."

Priest: Ok...John Towner Stravinsky Shostakovich Prokofiev Herrmann Korngold Rózsa Williams."

Wow. His father would have been a prophet if he can foretell the greatness of Hermann, Korngold and Rozsa in film music... in 1932.

He was bit of a prophet. And look how it made things easier. You can just say Williams even if you mean one of those guys and vice versa.

[Datameister 2,041]

Thanks everyone--I hear the Firebird similarities now, and you have all inspired me to take a listen t othe full ballet in the near future.

You won't regret it. Truly a wonderful and fascinating work.

[Will 2,215]

Now, this isn't necessarily what I'd call plagiarism -- but there's a definite similarity between passages of these two Williams cues. I don't mean this in a negative way at all -- both are fantastic, A+ pieces of music. I see similarities such as these as fascinating, displaying how Williams develops as a composer over time, expands on previous ideas, etc.

 

 

^Hammond's Proposition: 0:26-0:47

 

Diagon Alley: Beginning-0:13 (not the OST version; the recording sessions version)(you can find this on YouTube, but it's from leaked recording sessions so I deleted the embed -- I thought maybe posting a link to leaked stuff wasn't a good idea)

 

Pretty cool how you can hear the beginning few notes of Hedwig's Theme in Jurassic Park! And I don't think this is the only Williams theme that has been fully or partially included in some previous score, and then accidentally becomes an actual theme in a later score -- the "call" of Rey's theme was in ROTS, I think, and there are probably more examples. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

A significant section of the A.I. score is "Hatching Baby Raptor".

 

There are similarities to The Lost World is many modern Williams scores. The dark brooding stuff in War of the Worlds, "Ludlow's Demise" in "The Quidditch Match", "The Compys Dine" in "I Am the Senate", "The Stegosaurus" in "Rey Meets BB-8" and "The Rathtars".

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

I watched CoS for the first time in forever today, and really didn't expect to hear Dooku's Theme pop up in Diagon Alley!

 

 

I wouldn't consider it self-plagiarism exactly, but bits of "Dobby the House Elf" sound like "Star of Bethlehem" transposed into a major key.

First pops up at 0:20, then again at 0:52, 1:05, 1:53, you get the idea.

 

[Loert 2,511]

 

You can guess the year the Oboe Concerto was written in just from listening to the 3rd movement...

[mrbellamy 6,277]

This isn't really self-plagiarism, just a common little melodic/rhythmic pattern that he seems to like. Found I was starting to interchange all these while absent-mindedly humming random Williams tunes...

 

 

 

 

And sort of the inverse 

 

 

[toothless 963]

Introducing the beginning of Rey's Theme 

 

0:44 - 0:49

 

 

 

[Edmilson 7,426]

I heard some action music from The Lost World during the final duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin:

 

 

 

Also, The Coming of War from Memoirs of a Geisha = The Immolation Scene from Revenge of the Sith.

 

 

 

[Lermontov 0]

Hi, new poster here, so although I'm a little uncomfortable with the "plagiarizing himself" title of this old thread I did not think I should start a new one just yet.  Please let me know if this should go in a separate topic. 

 

For the last few days I have been trying to identify some music that was used in a video from an unidentified source.  

 

After ACRcloud failed to provide the answer I tried WatZatSong.com. Here is the 30 second sample I was able to post there (although the whole clip I have is 96 seconds attached as MP3).

Someone there mentioned quite a significant short phrase that recurs throughout the score of Williams' "The Terminal".  You can read my response on WatZatSong but, in short, although the suggested 9 note phrase which comprises the 1st 7 seconds of "Destiny" from that score

is noticeably similar to part of my unidentified track (i.e. in the WatZatSong sample the part from 00:01 to 00:08 or in the attached 96 second piece the part 00:05 to 00:12 then again 00:32 to 00:39 and finally 00:58 to 01:05) my mystery music does not match beyond that to any of the tracks in the issued soundtrack of "The Terminal". 

 

That leads to my question.  Does anyone here recognise the unidentified music, perhaps as another Williams piece where he uses a similar phrase to that in "The Terminal", or indeed as anything else at all?
 

I'd appreciate your help, as I really want to buy that music.

0001IntroductionFull96Seconds.mp3

[Falstaft 2,132]

 

2 hours ago, Lermontov said:

Hi, new poster here,...

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

2 hours ago, Lermontov said:

That leads to my question.  Does anyone here recognise the unidentified music, perhaps as another Williams piece where he uses a similar phrase to that in "The Terminal", or indeed as anything else at all?

 

I can say with 100% certainty this is not John Williams. Sounds very much like Alexandre Desplat (or someone aping Desplat). Perhaps someone hear can give it a positive ID?

[Lermontov 0]

3 hours ago, Falstaft said:

I can say with 100% certainty this is not John Williams. Sounds very much like Alexandre Desplat (or someone aping Desplat). Perhaps someone hear can give it a positive ID?

 

Thanks for that, Falstaft.  It had occurred to me that, if nobody manages to link the piece to anything positively, then it should be possible to narrow down the search by finding enthusiasts, such as yourself, who know the work of a particular composer well enough to eliminate that oeuvre. 

 

As for Desplat, while I'm not familiar with his work, having only seen a couple of the films he has scored, I think I begin to see what you mean.  I sampled a couple of his waltzes ("Dinner Waltz" from "Lust, Caution" and "River Waltz" from "The Painted Veil") and they do seem quite similar in style/orchestration to the mystery piece.

 

Back on the topic of John Williams, do you think his lawyers would consider the phrase as used in the unidentified piece to be close enough to that in "The Terminal" to be of concern?  I suppose he, or his publishers, must have people who keep an ear out for such things, but maybe we wouldn't always hear about something like that if it never reached a courtroom.

[Falstaft 2,132]

16 minutes ago, Lermontov said:

Back on the topic of John Williams, do you think his lawyers would consider the phrase as used in the unidentified piece to be close enough to that in "The Terminal" to be of concern?  I suppose he, or his publishers, must have people who keep an ear out for such things, but maybe we wouldn't always hear about something like that if it never reached a courtroom.

 

That's a great question. Generally, I don't know Williams to ever have been particularly litigious when it comes to other musicians imitating him, and there have been a lot of musicians who have imitated him! Perhaps he's flattered, perhaps he's secure enough in terms of reputation and finances that it doesn't matter. (And perhaps b/c he doesn't want to be a hypocrite, lest the Stravinsky, Holst, and Hanson estates start hounding him! /partial sarcasm)

 

Specifically with this example, I don't think it would pass most legal teams' smell test for "substantial similarity"; the music, while charming, seems fairly generic on a stylistic basis, something one could come up independently with without having heard Williams's (or Desplat's) music before hand. But again, I would defer to the Desplat experts among us!