Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)

[Jay 37,346]

But if I choose to label it differently, Jason gets pissy with me. The Gospel of Doug must be respected.

That is simply not true at all, in fact I've used my labels for themes in the main post that may be different than Doug's names.

Also, I recall no instance of getting "pissy" at how you choose to label things. Why would I give a flying fuck how you label things?

The only thing I can recall is you saying you are going to keep assuming Bard's Family Theme instance in Thrice Welcome is Bilbo's Theme, when we now know it isn't. You can keep being ignorant about it if you choose, I really don't care.

[Faleel 5,346]

Not that I am on his side or anything, but this is not about theme names Jason.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This forum has become a bit too anal in that regard as far as I'm concerned Faleel.

[Faleel 5,346]

Obsessiveness is a two-way street.

[Incanus 5,714]

It is a bit strange that we always get side tracked from discussing the music to mulling over the way we discuss the music. As fas as I can remember there have been no strict boundaries set to that.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We need a subforum for discussion music in depth in the approved LeBlanc/Adams/Shore way, and a subforum for threads that just say that The Fellowship Theme is FULL OF AWESOME!

[Faleel 5,346]

I really like the theme that is really awesome that plays in The Forest River.

[Incanus 5,714]

Yeah it's a great song!

[Faleel 5,346]

Why do we always need to talk about tracks having themes in them, why not just music?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I love I See Fire! Ed Sheerans lyrics speak to my! Why didnt he do the whole score?

[Faleel 5,346]

Some Shore guy got there first apparently.

[Ludwig 1,120]

My main gripe about the way themes are treated in the discussion here, and it's been this was since Doug released his CR notes is that every aspect of what i would consider a theme is classified and categorized as a theme in it's own right.

I dont see that at all with discussions about other scores.

The opening rhythm of The Imperial March isnt generally describes as a theme onto it's own. Yet if Doug had written a book about it we would be called it the Approach Of The Empire theme. The middle part would be the Vaders Hop step variation.

Lol - while I generally agree that "theme eligibility", as Quint calls it, is pushed somewhat too far, it does reveal two things about the way these scores are constructed that differs from other scores.

First, it shows that seemingly incidental aspects like accompaniment figures and short motifs return in the score and are therefore important as narrative devices. This is quite unlike other scores, where traditional themes usually fulfill this role.

Second, it emphasizes the importance of the direct repetition of material in the score, to the extent that almost all the material in the score recurs at some point. This is more of a patchwork style of composing than the more traditional through-composed score, and it's highly unusual for an action-fantasy film. Think of how often the History of the Ring theme, for example, returns in precisely the way it is heard in the prologue - not just the melody, but the accompaniment, harmony, instrumentation, absolutely everything. By contrast, I can't recall the main theme from Star Wars recurring even once the way it does in the intro in any of the films.

Its a different style of composition from a different kind of composer.

[Faleel 5,346]

Think of how often the History of the Ring theme, for example, returns in precisely the way it is heard in the prologue.

Are you referring to the first score?

Because two of the bigger statements in that score (Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe and A Conspiracy Unmasked) are tracked, and the statement in the prologue is a revised cue replacing an original version (with more subtle utilization of the theme).

[Quintus 5,399]

Regardless of what Doug or anyone else reckons, I consider there to be about 2-3 actual "themes" in this new score. And even that's pushing it.

[Faleel 5,346]

I would consider the dictionary to be a more reliable source than people's own reckoning.

[Incanus 5,714]

My main gripe about the way themes are treated in the discussion here, and it's been this was since Doug released his CR notes is that every aspect of what i would consider a theme is classified and categorized as a theme in it's own right.

I dont see that at all with discussions about other scores.

The opening rhythm of The Imperial March isnt generally describes as a theme onto it's own. Yet if Doug had written a book about it we would be called it the Approach Of The Empire theme. The middle part would be the Vaders Hop step variation.

Lol - while I generally agree that "theme eligibility", as Quint calls it, is pushed somewhat too far, it does reveal two things about the way these scores are constructed that differs from other scores.

First, it shows that seemingly incidental aspects like accompaniment figures and short motifs return in the score and are therefore important as narrative devices. This is quite unlike other scores, where traditional themes usually fulfill this role.

Second, it emphasizes the importance of the direct repetition of material in the score, to the extent that almost all the material in the score recurs at some point. This is more of a patchwork style of composing than the more traditional through-composed score, and it's highly unusual for an action-fantasy film. Think of how often the History of the Ring theme, for example, returns in precisely the way it is heard in the prologue - not just the melody, but the accompaniment, harmony, instrumentation, absolutely everything. By contrast, I can't recall the main theme from Star Wars recurring even once the way it does in the intro in any of the films.

Its a different style of composition from a different kind of composer.

There is a bit more fluidity in Shore's work than you give him credit for. And certain themes like the History of the Ring do recur in similar guise for specific reasons but by no means stay static throughout in form or orchestration. That is over simplifying Shore's approach. But it is certainly not quite how Williams or Goldsmith would do it.

[Quintus 5,399]

I would consider the dictionary to be a more reliable source than people's own reckoning.

I'd say come back to me when your idea of a "theme" has a beginning, middle and end. Yes, an actual bridge section. Remember them?

[Faleel 5,346]

Sigh.

This is where the concept of a "theme song" has taken us.

[Incanus 5,714]

I would consider the dictionary to be a more reliable source than people's own reckoning.

I'd say come back to me when your idea of a "theme" has a beginning, middle and end. Yes, an actual bridge section. Remember them?

By that definition LotR doesn't have themes almost at all if you are going by e.g. Raiders March or The Lion and the Wind criteria.

[Quintus 5,399]

I can think of a nice little handful.

[Faleel 5,346]

Also, there are scores not by shore that only have 2-3 or 4-5 themes in them with the rest being motif's

Superman: 4-6 themes at the most

Star Trek: The Motion Picture: 2-4 themes.

[Quintus 5,399]

Sigh.

This is where the concept of a "theme song" has taken us.

How did you come to that casual nonsense?

[Faleel 5,346]

The first note is the beginning, the second note is the middle, and the third and last note is the end

[Incanus 5,714]

I can think of a nice little handful.

Could you list some with Raiders March kind of development, start, middle and ending.

[Quintus 5,399]

Also, there are scores not by shore that only have 2-3 or 4-5 themes in them with the rest being motif's

Superman: 4-6 themes at the most

Star Trek: The Motion Picture: 2-4 themes.

Yeah. What's your point?

[Faleel 5,346]

Sigh.

This is where the concept of a "theme song" has taken us.

How did you come to that casual nonsense?

There are (mostly people that are not educated in how film music works I will give you that) people out there that consider the End title to ESB to be the "Empire Strikes Back theme"

Also, there are scores not by shore that only have 2-3 or 4-5 themes in them with the rest being motif's

Superman: 4-6 themes at the most

Star Trek: The Motion Picture: 2-4 themes.

Yeah. What's your point?

My point is that "there are scores that are NOT by Howard Shore that only have 2-3 or 4-5 themes in them with the rest being motif's"

[Ludwig 1,120]

My main gripe about the way themes are treated in the discussion here, and it's been this was since Doug released his CR notes is that every aspect of what i would consider a theme is classified and categorized as a theme in it's own right.

I dont see that at all with discussions about other scores.

The opening rhythm of The Imperial March isnt generally describes as a theme onto it's own. Yet if Doug had written a book about it we would be called it the Approach Of The Empire theme. The middle part would be the Vaders Hop step variation.

Lol - while I generally agree that "theme eligibility", as Quint calls it, is pushed somewhat too far, it does reveal two things about the way these scores are constructed that differs from other scores.

First, it shows that seemingly incidental aspects like accompaniment figures and short motifs return in the score and are therefore important as narrative devices. This is quite unlike other scores, where traditional themes usually fulfill this role.

Second, it emphasizes the importance of the direct repetition of material in the score, to the extent that almost all the material in the score recurs at some point. This is more of a patchwork style of composing than the more traditional through-composed score, and it's highly unusual for an action-fantasy film. Think of how often the History of the Ring theme, for example, returns in precisely the way it is heard in the prologue - not just the melody, but the accompaniment, harmony, instrumentation, absolutely everything. By contrast, I can't recall the main theme from Star Wars recurring even once the way it does in the intro in any of the films.

Its a different style of composition from a different kind of composer.

There is a bit more fluidity in Shore's work than you give him credit for. And certain themes like the History of the Ring do recur in similar guise for specific reasons but by no means stay static throughout in form or orchestration. That is over simplifying Shore's approach. But it is certainly not quite how Williams or Goldsmith would do it.

Of course he does engage in thematic transformation according to the developing narrative. I did not mean to imply that Shore only works in this patchwork way, only that it's much more a part of his style than other composers.

Even so, this patchwork approach is no criticism on my part. I only point it out to show its difference from other scores.

[Faleel 5,346]

Theme:

a short melodic subject from which variations are developed.

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary.

Theme:

a group of notes forming a recognizable melodic unit, often used as the basis of the musical material in a composition

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged

Themes and Motif's are really just two words that mean the same thing, but have been given seperate definitions by composers,

[Quintus 5,399]

I can think of a nice little handful.

Could you list some with Raiders March kind of development, start, middle and ending.

Why Raiders? Is it to make your argument work? What about Leia's theme? Or Smee's?

The Shire Theme/Hobbiton theme (also remember its rather beautiful end credits concert style arrangement - which actually incorporated the Fellowship theme into it as a working bridge section?), The Rohirrim theme, Gondor...

There is a nice healthy selection of theme in LotR.

Rule of thumb: if you can easily imagine a concert arrangement it's probably a theme.

[Faleel 5,346]

The Shire Theme/Hobbiton theme

Which one?

[Quintus 5,399]

My point is that "there are scores that are NOT by Howard Shore that only have 2-3 or 4-5 themes in them with the rest being motif's"

Why are you telling me this?

[Faleel 5,346]

Because you asked what my point was?

[Quintus 5,399]

The Shire Theme/Hobbiton theme

Which one?

They are one and the same, under the different guises of arrangement and orchestration.

[Faleel 5,346]

The end credits of FOTR is somewhat like to the Superman End Title, in that it is explorations of the thematic material (Hymn Setting mostly I believe) for the Hobbits woven together to create a satisfying end credits suite

[Quintus 5,399]

Because you asked what my point was?

I still don't know what your point was. Was it really purely just to tell me that other films and composers share similar musical attributes to Shore and LotR?

If so, then er... cheers.

[Incanus 5,714]

I can think of a nice little handful.

Could you list some with Raiders March kind of development, start, middle and ending.

Why Raiders? Is it to make your argument work? What Leia's theme? Or Smee's?

The Shire Theme/Hobbiton theme (also remember its rather beautiful end credits concert style arrangement - which actually incorporated the Fellowship theme into it as a working bridge section?), The Rohirrim theme, Gondor...

There is a nice healthy selection of theme in LotR.

Rule of thumb: if you can easily imagine a concert arrangement it's probably a theme.

No no I just meant in that sense of development like Raiders March has as a theme, not to make any argument work. Anything like Accidental Tourist or Presumed Innocent or First Knight could be an equally good example of such a theme with that kind of long development or set of musical phrases.

The ones you mention from LotR are perhaps the strongest and most identifiable ideas used in the scores and do receive the lengthiest development during those trilogy (and individual films where they have a central position).

[KK 3,307]

I think there are like 6-7 major themes (or at least as Quint views it), the rest act more like motifs.

And the Beorn motif is one of the weaker ideas in the score. It's more of a textural device.

I agree that there is a tendency to label variations of themes as independent themes, which is why I sometimes like to leave the labels behind when discussing the music. Having said that, everyone is free to interpret this music as they choose. I just don't think every variation of the Shire Theme needs a name of its own

[Quintus 5,399]

Yeah, and with the melody magically changing

Are we both talking about the fiddle lead Shire theme and the slushy Hobbit bromance theme here?

[Faleel 5,346]

I agree that there is a tendency to label variations of themes as independent themes,

The problem is, some of us are like George Lucas, we want to name the unnamed cue/"theme"

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Theme:

a short melodic subject from which variations are developed.

Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary.

Theme:

a group of notes forming a recognizable melodic unit, often used as the basis of the musical material in a composition

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged

Themes and Motif's are really just two words that mean the same thing, but have been given seperate definitions by composers,

I'd say that generally a theme is longer than a motif, and a theme can be developed from/contain motifs. A motif can't contain a theme. But you're right, the definition is essentially blurry and not a clear-cut "everything longer than 5 notes is a theme".

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The thing is: you haven't heard the score outside of the film yet, Lee. Trust me, once you do, I'm sure you'll notice that there are (at least) two or three quite hummable themes, with bridge sections and all.

The score doesn't really get to shine in the film, that's something we can agree on (if that's one of the things you meant in what you wrote above).

I'd say that generally a theme is longer than a motif, and a theme can be developed from/contain motifs.

Yeah, I think that's how most people use the two words, even though no "official" definitions define both words like that.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Yeah, and with the melody magically changing

Are we both talking about the fiddle lead Shire theme and the slushy Hobbit bromance theme here?

I would classify them as (musically and topic-wise) related themes, both developed from the beginning D-E-F sharp-A motif.

[Faleel 5,346]

Also, I would say Jason's list (for AUJ/DOS) is somewhere between the Shore/Doug way, and the "Normal" way, for instance, he labels A B and C "themes" (A.K.A seperate sections of the same theme) where Doug would just list them as seperate "themes"

Also, I think some people misinterpret the list in Doug's book/notes, I view it as a list of themes, and then a breakdown of the material that makes up those themes.

[Quintus 5,399]

Themes and Motif's are really just two words that mean the same thing, but have been given seperate definitions by composers,

A motif is the sound of the Uruk Hai. It is the seduction of the Ring.

Musical signals, identifiable texture.

[Faleel 5,346]

A motif is the sound of the Uruk Hai.

I love that motif

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Good rule of thumb. A "theme" feels complete on its own. A "motive" cries out for development.

[Quintus 5,399]

Sometimes.

The Ring's Seduction is an excellent example of a motif which feels complete and perfect as it is. Small, but perfectly formed.

[Faleel 5,346]

A "motive" cries out for development.

Darn, so every musical idea I want a concert arrangement for is a Motif?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Nope, themes can be presented like that too.

Think of Beethoven 9 as a concert suite of the Ode theme. Beethoven 5 is development of its opening motive.

But you can listen to the 9th tune in isolation, like as a hymn. The 5th motive just hangs there in the air.

[Quintus 5,399]

It doesn't work that way for me personally.

I just would never call the Ring's seduction motif a theme.

Blame it on a glutenous diet of unparalleled leitmotif rich works courtesy of The Maestro. If he had scored LotR the Ring's seduction melody would merely be the moody backing rhythms of a greater, much more prominent theme.