Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)

[Incanus 5,713]

Also, I would say Jason's list (for AUJ/DOS) is somewhere between the Shore/Doug way, and the "Normal" way, for instance, he labels A B and C "themes" (A.K.A seperate sections of the same theme) where Doug would just list them as seperate "themes"

Also, I think some people misinterpret the list in Doug's book/notes, I view it as a list of themes, and then a breakdown of the material that makes up those themes.

Indeed Doug lists theme settings, which means that they are variations on the same basic theme or thematic root but developed differently for specific dramatic purpose.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I'm just saying, as far as I know and have ever heard, that's pretty much the distinction, at least in concert music. But I don't know why it shouldn't carry over to film.

[Quintus 5,399]

Just want to clarify something: I'm referring to the descending foreboding melody heard for example when Bilbo finally gives up the Ring and leaves it to Gandalf; and NOT the Ring's main musical signature as heard during the opening titles and prologue.

I don't read the official cue titles or anything like that, so apologies for any confusion.

[KK 3,307]

The descending thirds you refer to is an accompaniment motif/device to the Mordor material. It was never really considered a theme of its own.

The Seduction of the Ring is the eerie choral melody you hear in the opening of "Three is Company" in the FotR CR.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I would call the descending third a motive since on its own it is sort of static, until developed alongside other ideas. The long, arcing History theme for the ring is, yeah, a theme. It has several phrases, it breathes, it's a complete thought, which can be further developed, but in that initial state it is complete.

[Faleel 5,339]

Just curious, would the Threat of Mordor and Descending be considered related?

[Quintus 5,399]

Well, they both feature prominently during Weathertop.

The descending thirds you refer to is an accompaniment motif/device to the Mordor material. It was never really considered a theme of its own.

The Seduction of the Ring is the eerie choral melody you hear in the opening of "Three is Company" in the FotR CR.

Yeah my bad - I was referring to the descending motif before when mentioning its seduction. Hence why I wished to separate its musical intention from broader thematic elements in the score. It is certainly a motif, in its own right.

Secondly, I realise it isn't really "seductive" overall, it's just that I ALWAYS associate it with Bilbo's addiction, in Fellowship. I hope this helps you to understand my associating the descending notes with "seduction".

[Jay 37,287]

I think DOS has eight major new themes. Themes that stand out, are hummable, and have long developed lines - not existing only in short phrases. Those would be The Woodland Realm, Tauriel's Theme, Tauriel and Kili's Love Theme, Bard's Theme, Lake-town, The Politicians of Lake-town, House of Durin, and Smaug's Theme.

(and yes I realize Woodland and Smaug cameoed in AUJ before appearing here, but they weren't fully developed then)

[Faleel 5,339]

I consider Tauriel and Kili's theme more of a personal theme than a love theme, ala Superman Returns somewhat.

[Quintus 5,399]

Out of those I vaguely remember the Lake Town music and that it had the feel of being something potentially thematic.

[Faleel 5,339]

You mean, it had the potential, to be memorable/hummable/good, not that it had the potential to be thematic, all motif's are thematic, even if they are not themes.

[KK 3,307]

Well, they both feature prominently during Weathertop.

The descending thirds you refer to is an accompaniment motif/device to the Mordor material. It was never really considered a theme of its own.

The Seduction of the Ring is the eerie choral melody you hear in the opening of "Three is Company" in the FotR CR.

Yeah my bad - I was referring to the descending motif before when mentioning its seduction. Hence why I wished to separate its musical intention from broader thematic elements in the score. It is certainly a motif, in its own right.

Secondly, I realise it isn't really "seductive" overall, it's just that I ALWAYS associate it with Bilbo's addiction, in Fellowship. I hope this helps you to understand my associating the descending notes with "seduction".

I understand that. But it does pop up in a lot of different places in the later films

Out of those I vaguely remember the Lake Town music and that it had the feel of being something potentially thematic.

Quint, do you plan to ever listen to the album on its own? The score is often dialled out or mixed low in the film.

[Quintus 5,399]

You mean, it had the potential, to be memorable/hummable/good, not that it had the potential to be thematic, all motif's are thematic, even if they are not themes.

What I mean is it had a discernible tune.

@KK

Yes! I really enjoyed the score actually (as heard in the film). I just need to order it and then find some quiet time. But I'm definitely keen.

[Faleel 5,339]

What I mean is it had a discernible tune.

Well, then say so.

[Quintus 5,399]

I did, in a manner of speaking

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

You mean, it had the potential, to be memorable/hummable/good, not that it had the potential to be thematic, all motif's are thematic, even if they are not themes.

What I mean is it had a discernible tune.

@KK

Yes! I really enjoyed the score actually (as heard in the film). I just need to order it and then find some quiet time. But I'm definitely keen.

Noooo, you must hate it! This board flourishes on acrimony!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If I had not heard the score before the film, the Laketown Theme would have been the only new theme I would have remembered.

[Jay 37,287]

Out of those I vaguely remember the Lake Town music and that it had the feel of being something potentially thematic.

It's impossible to learn most of those in the film, especially after one viewing. This is not a fault of Shore, it's a fault of PJ who dialed out huge portions of many cues in mixed the music low in others (though there are still plenty of times the music did get to shine, luckily).

For some reason he dialed out a lot of the big Smaug's Theme statements, which is really odd considering how strong of a theme it is, totally dominating the final third of the soundtrack release

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm going to take all your words for it as far as the ost release is concerned. Gonna order it now.

Remember though: I was disappointed by Shore's previous ost release.

[Faleel 5,339]

Of course, IJO (In Jason's Opinion)

I agree with him of course, Its just that we are biased.

[Quintus 5,399]

Naturally.

[Faleel 5,339]

Remember though: I was disappointed by Shore's previous ost release.

Well, there is a bit more Harmony between the OST and the film than AUJ, so no 5 minute long sections of alternate music.

[Incanus 5,713]

I would say that the trouble with DoS is that it advances with such break-neck speed there is not much time to develop something like Lake-town theme extensively. Luckily the elves follow the company to Lake-town so the Woodland Realm and Tauriel themes have a chance to be developed further and carried along nicely.

But you leave something like Beorn, Mirkwood and Spider themes behind pretty quickly after they are introduced.

[Faleel 5,339]

Though one (?) cue in the film had choir mixed out (On the Doorstep )

[Quintus 5,399]

I just really, really appreciated that the vast majority of what I heard was BRAND NEW.

[Incanus 5,713]

Though one (?) cue in the film had choir mixed out (On the Doorstep )

All the more happy that we got 2 disc release for this score also with Shore's original intentions intact for the most part (I presume).

[Faleel 5,339]

But you leave something like Beorn, Mirkwood and Spider themes behind pretty quickly after they are introduced.

Motives

[Incanus 5,713]

I just really, really appreciated that the vast majority of what I heard was BRAND NEW.

I thought that to be a major asset of this score as well.

But you leave something like Beorn, Mirkwood and Spider themes behind pretty quickly after they are introduced.

Motives

Leitmotifs!

[Jay 37,287]

I just really, really appreciated that the vast majority of what I heard was BRAND NEW.

Yea, very little from AUJ's huge library of themes is brought over into DOS. Really only Erebor and Thorin's themes, actually. The rest either get dropped entirely (the company's themes, Bilbo's theme), or make small cameo appearances (Bilbo's Fussy theme, Gandalf the Grey's Theme)

[Faleel 5,339]

Thematic material!

[Incanus 5,713]

Thematic material!

Musical ideas!

[Faleel 5,339]

Music!

[Incanus 5,713]

John Williams!

[Kühni 485]

My main gripe about the way themes are treated in the discussion here, and it's been this was since Doug released his CR notes is that every aspect of what i would consider a theme is classified and categorized as a theme in it's own right.

I dont see that at all with discussions about other scores.

The opening rhythm of The Imperial March isnt generally describes as a theme onto it's own. Yet if Doug had written a book about it we would be called it the Approach Of The Empire theme. The middle part would be the Vaders Hop step variation.

[Quintus 5,399]

Indeed.

So what would Doug actually call The Imperial March? A movement? A symphony?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why thank you.

[Incanus 5,713]

Oh you are now so smug aren't you with your two think-alikes. You'll never turn me! I will forever be pottering with teeny-tiny motivic snippets and cataloging them and calling them themes! Forever do you hear me Mr. Cosman!

[Faleel 5,339]

Indeed.

So what would Doug actually call The Imperial March? A movement? A symphony?

A concert arrangement of Darth Vader's motives:

The Empire Outline. (the opening bit)

The Evil of The Empire (the main bit)

Star Wars Main Title, as named by Doug:

A Period of Civil War (the opening crash and stuff)

Luke Skywalker A Phrase (the main brass bit)

Luke Skywalker in the Rebellion/Luke Skywalker and the Jedi (the string bit)

[Incanus 5,713]

Indeed.

So what would Doug actually call The Imperial March? A movement? A symphony?

A concert arrangement of Darth Vader's motives:

The Empire Outline. (the opening bit)

The Evil of The Empire (the main bit)

What about the Imperial Goose Step (the march rhythm)?

[Faleel 5,339]

That is something exclusive to the Concert Arrangement.

It would be called:

The Threat of Vader

The Raiders March as named by Doug:

The Heroics of Indy (the A phrase)

Indy In Victory (The B Phrase)

Indeed.

So what would Doug actually call The Imperial March? A movement? A symphony?

A concert arrangement of Darth Vader's motives:

The Empire Outline. (the opening bit)

The Evil of The Empire (the main bit)

What about the Imperial Goose Step (the march rhythm)?

I think you are tlaking about the Empire Outline (the bit that was ever tracked in the Theatrical?)

[Quintus 5,399]

I just prefer The Imperial March/Theme.

[Faleel 5,339]

I prefer:

The Imperial Death March

[Incanus 5,713]

Oh let's not be too harsh on Doug Adams. He has been a great illuminator of Shore's work and generous with his time and thoughts over the years.

[Quintus 5,399]

It's all in good humour as always

[Kühni 485]

.

[KK 3,307]

Well said Kuhni. The Eowyn and Théoden/Aragorn example was something I particularly disagreed with. Both are variations of Eowyn's theme that are settings specified in relation to different characters. But to call them separate themes is a bit silly.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

http://www.inquisitr.com/1073946/ed-sheeran-was-drunk-when-he-received-desolation-of-smaug-offer/

Lol.

Have fun kids.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,339]

Saying he was drunk would be too good of an excuse.