No Expanded The Reivers or The Cowboys coming any time soon

[Brónach 1,301]

Says you! I always felt the natural limitations that Varese operated with at the time (re-use fees etc.) made them think even harder on how to reconceptualize the scores for listening purposes. I thought it was a GOOD thing.

They should reconceptualize them as ten minute suites instead of 30. Much more loyal to the work of the composer.

[Thor 7,478]

I think you are unique in your way of thinking...

I'm in the minority, perhaps, but hardly unique. Fortunately, I have many composers on my side. And guys like Robert Townson. And the occasional soundtrack listener. So it's not altogether 'grim'.

[Ollie 1,059]

That said I would take a moderately priced re-issue of the OST over having nothing, especially of those OOP titles Jason mentioned.

Let's call up Perseverance!

[Brónach 1,301]

I think you are unique in your way of thinking...

I'm in the minority, perhaps, but hardly unique. Fortunately, I have many composers on my side. And guys like Robert Townson. And the occasional soundtrack listener. So it's not altogether 'grim'.

We have many composers on our side, and the fans, and would be surprised how quickly the "occasional soundtrack listener" agrees with us XDDD

[Thor 7,478]

I must admit I got a sense of satisfaction when I put the question directly to Goldenthal & Townson in 2011 and they were both 'in my camp'. You may all want to silence us, but our voice will be heard and we have people in high places! MWAHAHAHAHA!

[crocodile 7,989]

Didn't Goldenthal say he wouldn't mind have both?

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

No competent musician with a sense of pride would like to have a complete score out spread on two cd's with dozens of short stingers and functional suspense stuff presented bare to the world. They may endorse it for additional income but that's it.

It's fanboy nonsense and i may cite John Powell's recent answer in an interview 'just stop listening to film music'...

[crocodile 7,989]

I think in the case of film music it might be a moot point regardless. This music is not designed to be listened on album anyway. I myself like certain shorter albums, purely for their enjoyable presentation, but also appreciate studying the architecture of the score (which can be very elusive on a 40 minute disc). Depends on the day/score/time/mood. Because many labels release both, it's a win-win situation.

Karol

[Thor 7,478]

Didn't Goldenthal say he wouldn't mind have both?

Karol

Well no, he said his preference was for the 'rearranged' variant, but then added humourously "unless you have all the money in the world, like Greece, North Korea etc". He, he....very weird interview, that. But entertaining.

[crocodile 7,989]

Yeah, he's a strange fella.

I read the other day he's coming back to Poland to record some of his concert music in the new state-of-the-art studio. Othello was mentioned, but I wonder whether they meant Grendel instead,

Karol

[publicist 4,643]

I think in the case of film music it might be a moot point regardless. This music is not designed to be listened on album anyway. I myself like certain shorter albums, purely for their enjoyable presentation, but also appreciate studying the architecture of the score (which can be very elusive on a 40 minute disc). Depends on the day/score/time/mood. Because many labels release both, it's a win-win situation.

Karol

Let's leave alone the seasoned fan for a moment, just imagine you are a composer and your first and foremost profession is writing music - you just don't think like that if you're not just pragmatic. The movie is the movie, the music is the music. In 99% of all scores, it is musically superior to condense the score into a much more tight and sometimes re-edited version leaving out at least 30% of padding/repetition (even James Horner does that and he's damn repetitious).

I sometimes listen to these complete scores - case in point: CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER - and they just don't hold up. Most of the time, you are more than well-served with a 50 or 60 minute album, save a few cues that would be better than what then composer choose (who likes to leave out crucial finales and such).

[Thor 7,478]

Yeah, he's a strange fella.

I read the other day he's coming back to Poland to record some of his concert music in the new state-of-the-art studio. Othello was mentioned, but I wonder whether they meant Grendel instead,

Karol

Wow, really? That's exciting news. He told me he had already recorded the vocals of GRENDEL, using singers from a NIBELUNGEN recording (that also appeared in the original cast of GRENDEL), and that he hoped to record the rest soon -- for a release this year, actually. So it could be that, absolutely.

[crocodile 7,989]

Yes, I remember him and Taymor talking about that. I asked the question in one of the meetings, if you remember.

Let's hope this project brings something exciting to our stereos (or iPods, rather).

Oh, pub. I can understand this viewpoint pretty well. It's just that this is such a strange artform anyway. Hard to really measure it from a purely musical perspective. And original albums often are presented the certain way only because of the tight schedule.

Karol - who has heard some bits of Grendel and liked it

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I must admit I got a sense of satisfaction when I put the question directly to Goldenthal & Townson in 2011 and they were both 'in my camp'. You may all want to silence us, but our voice will be heard and we have people in high places! MWAHAHAHAHA!

Well Townson is not in your camp, since he has released countless of expanded soundtracks.

Even more, he may be worse...since he does that for money then, if he really does not like scores to be presented in complete form...

I think he was just justifying his short releases with that remark.

[Thor 7,478]

Townson is a little bit in both camps.

Check it out, especially from 2:55:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-UsegA9X4

btw, that's me getting up and sitting down in the beginning of the video (in fact, I think it was I who asked the question).

[TownerFan 4,983]

Let's leave alone the seasoned fan for a moment, just imagine you are a composer and your first and foremost profession is writing music - you just don't think like that if you're not just pragmatic. The movie is the movie, the music is the music. In 99% of all scores, it is musically superior to condense the score into a much more tight and sometimes re-edited version leaving out at least 30% of padding/repetition (even James Horner does that and he's damn repetitious).

I sometimes listen to these complete scores - case in point: CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER - and they just don't hold up. Most of the time, you are more than well-served with a 50 or 60 minute album, save a few cues that would be better than what then composer choose (who likes to leave out crucial finales and such).

I think Lukas Kendall summed up the whole argument pretty much definitely in the interview he gave for my website. Yes, shorter presentation are usually better as pure listening experience because they usually cut out all the boring parts and cherry-pick the best ones (save for some climactic or pivotal moment that gets sometimes left out for unknown reasons, I know). But there will always be that cool 30-second cue you really like to have on disc that someone else decided to leave out, so it's always a matter of personal choice and preference (be it the producer, the composer or the listener itself, whoever). Can all of this be boiled down to a single perfect way of doing it? Of course not. It's not science or math.

C&C presentation became the norm because the majority of film score fans and collectors wanted it that way, so the boutique labels went for what their audience was asking for accordingly. Why they should do it differently than that? As Lukas says, if you have everything out then you can always let people do their own preferred playlists on iTunes or whatever.

I think all this endless blabber about complete version vs. album version has now become a tired argument, even for the most ardent fans.

[Thor 7,478]

But there will always be that cool 30-second cue you really like to have on disc that someone else decided to leave out,

Not if the film plays no importance in one's soundtrack appreciation. Then it doesn't really matter what's left out as long as what you have holds up. You can either be oblivious to the cue (if you haven't seen the film) or be aware of it (if you have seen the film), it still won't matter. But yeah -- I'm well aware this is a minority approach to soundtrack listening.

In either case, you're right that the niche labels do the right thing from a purely commercial point-of-view. That IS what most fans want, after all. It still doesn't mean, however, that one has to like it.

Also -- and I believe I've said this quite a few times -- putting together an album is not like making your own playlist in iTunes or whatever. Where you think I overestimate album production, Maurizio, I think you underestimate it. It's an artform onto itself.

[Marian Schedenig 8,177]

But there will always be that cool 30-second cue you really like to have on disc that someone else decided to leave out,

Not if the film plays no importance in one's soundtrack appreciation. Then it doesn't really matter what's left out as long as what you have holds up. You can either be oblivious to the cue (if you haven't seen the film) or be aware of it (if you have seen the film), it still won't matter. But yeah -- I'm well aware this is a minority approach to soundtrack listening.

The thing about this you never seem to understand is that it's NOT about the film. There are lots of soundtracks where I was missing a crucial piece of music on the original album, regardless of whether I knew the movie well, or had seen it once, or not at all. It's the piece of music I wanted, not the images associated with it. And in some cases it wasn't just a cue that was cool yet irrelevant in the larger construct, but actually a crucial part of the score.

I normally dislike (not always, depends on the mood and circumstances of course, but in general) playing only part of a symphony, and for the same reason I dislike having a score's musical integrity compromised by an album release. A good listening experience first of all means musical integrity.

[indy4 155]

Honestly, I don't think you can draw such absolute lines on either side of the argument. For me, it really depends on the score. There are times when the OST is completely botched (i.e. Jurassic Park for artistic reasons or Hook for spatial reasons).

At the same time, I agree with Thor that something is lost with the C&C approach--there is certainly an art to assemblying an album, and even if you know exactly what you want the technology/patience/ability required to re-edit a score is beyond many people's means (I will never make an edit of a score even if I know what I want, because the act of listening to a cue over and over again in a short amount of time can permanently destroy its emotional effectiveness for me). Additionally, there are some cues that simply do not work outside of the film (i.e. "Bad Dates from Raiders). I don't think these types of cues add anything to the musical integrity of the score outside of the film. Sometimes they dilute the good parts; at worst, they can ruin them through endless, repetitive variations on the same theme. (But sometimes they're fucking awesome, and it's a crime that they weren't included on the OST.)

I don't think there's a perfect solution...the C&C coupled with the OST seems like the least bad solution. You get a choice between a professionally assembled album (with all its imperfections and limitations) and the artless C&C presentation. Pretty much anybody can do some minor fiddling via playlists, etc. It's still not perfect, because both a) people still can't really prepare their perfect version of the experience and b) it's impractial, because to do that for some releases would require upping the disc count (and cost) to ridiculous levels. But it satisfies a majority of people to the greatest extent possible, I think.

[Incanus 5,713]

Give me C&C and I'll produce my own perfect listening experience if the full musical narrative of the film doesn't feel satisfying to my ears.

But that is all I am going to say on the matter. We have had this futile discussion so many times and none of us get any wiser as we do not share the same philosophy on this nor is it likely that we can convince each other differently. Both approaches make their respective followers happy. It's good enough for me.

[Thor 7,478]

It is a futile discussion if the goal is to change the other part's mind or preference, which will never happen. However, I do think some good things may come out it if it's just allowed to flow freely and constructively -- namely to understand the other part better. Sadly, it is rarely alllowed to flow freely and is rarely constructive, in my experience.

There is however ONE thing I'm still curious about when it comes to those who prefer C&C -- genuinely curious, I'm not trying to be a smartypants -- and that is the following:

Let's say you're in the mood to play some Williams, and since every score and its grandmother has been expanded, you reach for that version. It's 2 CD's filled to the brim (including alternates, demo takes and whatnot). How do you allow time to play out both CD's from start to finish when there are so many other things you want to listen to, and don't you at any point get 'exasperated' during the listening -- unless it's something with great thematic versatility like STAR WARS or LOTR? Or do you use the expanded CD's to listen to individual cues in a piecemeal fashion?

As someone who tends to listen to albums from start to finish (unless I'm being interupted by other things), this is something that I've always wondered about.

(PS. Sorry for veering off-topic about this again, but there is only so much you can say about there not being an expanded release of THE REIVERS and THE COWBOYS).

[indy4 155]

It is a futile discussion if the goal is to change the other part's mind or preference, which will never happen. However, I do think some good things may come out it if it's just allowed to flow freely and constructively -- namely to understand the other part better. Sadly, it is rarely alllowed to flow freely and is rarely constructive, in my experience.

There is however ONE thing I'm still curious about when it comes to those who prefer C&C -- genuinely curious, I'm not trying to be a smartypants -- and that is the following:

Let's say you're in the mood to play some Williams, and since every score and its grandmother has been expanded, you reach for that version. It's 2 CD's filled to the brim (including alternates, demo takes and whatnot). How do you allow time to play out both CD's from start to finish when there are so many other things you want to listen to, and don't you at any point get 'exasperated' during the listening -- unless it's something with great thematic versatility like STAR WARS or LOTR? Or do you use the expanded CD's to listen to individual cues in a piecemeal fashion?

For me, I either a) make my own playlist that is has both versatility and whatever important parts of the score that were not included on the OST or b) listen to individual cues. I will be honest, I rarely give music my absolute undivided attention for more than 15 or so minutes at a time (which I admit, is a great shame). But I think there's something to be lost in artificially limiting yourself to say one hour of music because it is more convenient (of course, you also gain the convenience, so I don't think one is necessarily better than the other)--a good piece of music loses something when you extract an important part of it.

I'll rarely listen to the entire CD as presented by the speciality labels, unless I can't find anything to correct (i.e. Black Sunday, which I think flows wonderfully).

[Thor 7,478]

Thanks. That's actually very informative.

[Incanus 5,713]

I usually prefer to listen to scores from start to finish, both OST albums and C&C versions. And nowadays there is always more and more to listen to and it might make you somewhat attetion deficient in some ways when everything is demanding your attention but when I want to enjoy an album, I sit down and listen it with thought all the way through, not cherry pick the highlights. But of course that does not mean that I don't sometimes pick out a whole list of individual tracks from different CDs when it suits my fancy. My preference, time allowing, is of course the first option.

[indy4 155]

@ Thor: Now my turn to ask you a legitimate question: If you were watching a film and you heard a piece of music that you liked, whether as an individual cue or as it functions in the rest of the score, and it wasn't on the OST, would you still refuse to by a C&C (assuming cost was not an issue)? I actually agree with you on a lot of your points, but what I've never understood is the ideology that an album arrangement is always superior. Or are there cases where you have purchased C&C when the OST was readily available?

[Thor 7,478]

@ Thor: Now my turn to ask you a legitimate question: If you were watching a film and you heard a piece of music that you liked, whether as an individual cue or as it functions in the rest of the score, would you still refuse to by a C&C (assuming cost was not an issue)?

Yes. Although it's not so much a matter of 'refusing' as rather 'having no interest in'. For me, the two experiences are completely different -- one is related to my film interest, the other to my music interest (having grown out of first listening to instrumental electronic music, prog rock concept albums, symphonic rock etc.). I never ask the question "what isn't here?", but rather "what IS here, and how does it work as a whole?".

I have bought a C&C now and then (and in many cases, I don't have a choice), but in 99% of the cases, they have proven less satisfactory than the original release. Examples of where they HAVE proven satisfactory are the STAR WARS Arista box CD's and Vince di Cola's ROCKY IV.

[indy4 155]

@ Thor: Now my turn to ask you a legitimate question: If you were watching a film and you heard a piece of music that you liked, whether as an individual cue or as it functions in the rest of the score, would you still refuse to by a C&C (assuming cost was not an issue)?

Yes. Although it's not so much a matter of 'refusing' as rather 'having no interest in'. For me, the two experiences are completely different -- one is related to my film interest, the other to my music interest (having grown out of first listening to instrumental electronic music, prog rock concept albums, symphonic rock etc.).

What I don't understand is, what if the cue only available on C&C is something you like for its musicality, NOT for its relation with the film? Usually I couldn't care less about the film (except maybe sometimes on a subconscious level), but that doesn't mean all the good music is going to make it onto the OST--ESPECIALLY when arranging an album is, as you've called it, an "artform in itself"--like all art, its subjective, and surely there's going to be times when you disagree with the album producer on subjective grounds, and think that a cue left off the OST should have in fact been included? Surely you have had criticsms in other forms of art, where a film maker, novelist, concert composer, etc., did not include something that you felt would have made their work stronger?

I'll give you an example: in the ToD OST, we never get the full phrase of Mola Ram's theme, just the second half of it during the Mine Car Chase. I think the Mine Car sequence is much more effective/makes more musical sense when it references motifs from earlier in the score (and it does this in the expansion, because before the Mine Cars we get Ram's full theme). It has nothing to do with the film, it's a purely musical (and very subjective) reason why I would want an expanded ToD.

[Thor 7,478]

But what you say presumes that I use the film (and the music within it) as a point of reference when I'm judging a CD. I don't do that. I buy soundtracks as cool concept albums; my only interest is what is THERE, not what ISN'T. I didn't become interested in soundtracks from hearing the music in the films -- it was an evolution from other musical genres.

Example of how I approach this:

I had enjoyed the original Warner CD of SUPERMAN as a sort of Straussian tone poem for many years when Rhino released their 2CD. I had seen the film a few times, but really hadn't paid any attention to missing music or anything like that, since that train of thought is non-existant to me. I bought the Rhino out of curiousity, listened to it and heard the "The Big Rescue" cue that everyone raved about. That's a pretty nice cue, I thought, with a setpiece-kind of structure. Could it have been included on the original Warner CD without the album flow losing its steam? Yeah, probably. Does the Warner CD work without it too? Yes, it does. Is the cue really that wonderful that I MUST have it? No, not really. Since there really wasn't anything else on there that grabbed my interest, I veered back to the Warner and sold the Rhino.

Not sure if that made it clearer.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I didn't become interested in soundtracks from hearing the music in the films

Anything can happen, but this is a real oxymoron.

Anyway, to each his own. That's why the whole argument has become tired and futile. We circle around the same topics again and again and the end result is always the same. It's not a matter of changing other people's mind---it's just an argument that doesn't lend itself to endless debate. It's all down to personal preference, taste and experience, in relation to the films and their scores. It's not philosophy or rocket science.

[indy4 155]

But what you say presumes that I use the film (and the music within it) as a point of reference when I'm judging a CD. I don't do that. I buy soundtracks as cool concept albums; my only interest is what is THERE, not what ISN'T. I didn't become interested in soundtracks from hearing the music in the films -- it was an evolution from other musical genres.

Example of how I approach this:

I had enjoyed the original Warner CD of SUPERMAN as a sort of Straussian tone poem for many years when Rhino released their 2CD. I had seen the film a few times, but really hadn't paid any attention to missing music or anything like that, since that train of thought is non-existant to me. I bought the Rhino out of curiousity, listened to it and heard the "The Big Rescue" cue that everyone raved about. That's a pretty nice cue, I thought, with a setpiece-kind of structure. Could it have been included on the original Warner CD without the album flow losing its steam? Yeah, probably. Does the Warner CD work without it too? Yes, it does. Is the cue really that wonderful that I MUST have it? No, not really. Since there really wasn't anything else on there that grabbed my interest, I veered back to the Warner and sold the Rhino.

Not sure if that made it clearer.

I understand that you don't use the film as a method of introducing you to music (thanks for clarifying, I found that interesting). But as someone who views an album arrangement as a work of art, aren't there times when you think that work is lacking for some reason? Maybe you think a certain thematic subplot would have worked better if the composer developed a theme in X manner...and then while you're watching the film, you can't help but notice that that's exactly what he/she does. I know you aren't actively searching for good standalone music while watching a film, but if it presents itself in such a way, would you still not have any interest in the C&C (or at least in that individual cue)?

I didn't become interested in soundtracks from hearing the music in the films

Anything can happen, but this is a real oxymoron.

Anyway, to each his own. That's why the whole argument has become tired and futile. We circle around the same topics again and again and the end result is always the same. It's not a matter of changing other people's mind---it's just an argument that doesn't lend itself to endless debate. It's all down to persona preference, taste and experience, in relation to the films and their scores. It's not philosophy or rocket science.

I've never understood this type of response...I mean we're on a discussion board, presumably because we like to discuss this type of stuff. I can understand individuals getting tired of having the same debates over and over, but if there are people legitimately interested in the subject, as Thor and myself seem to be, aren't we doing exactly what we're supposed to on these discussion boards? The peple that are tired can (with no offense intended) not participate. As long as things stay civil, then there's nothing wrong IMO.

[TownerFan 4,983]

No worries, I'm going away. Bye.

[Thor 7,478]

Maurizio, I do have to respectfully disagree with you in the sense that I think the topic is VERY interesting from a philosophical/cognitive/sociological viewpoint, since it basically has to do with how we derive pleasure from a given product. So perhaps it's less argumentative debate in nature and more philosophical conversation. It's interesting to know what 'clicks' with people and how it does it, IMO. I'd be interested to hear your view on the question I posed earlier too.

But as someone who views an album arrangement as a work of art, aren't there times when you think that work is lacking for some reason?

Sure, but it usually has to do with musical content. I don't usually think in alternative paths like "oh, what if Van Gogh had used blue instead of yellow here?" but rather "how and what does the yellow communicate as it's up there -- on the canvas?", to use a parallell from painting. A soundtrack album is IMO a new and finished piece of artwork based on the raw materials of the film's music, and I judge it as that. I'm not interested in the raw materials, I'm interested in how the artists mold them.

Example: People criticize JURASSIC PARK as having a bewildered thematic structure. I've never felt that. I feel that the repeat of the theme at those points gives the album almost a sonata form overall; it also adds to the ebb and flow of emotions (dissonance there, then into the majestic theme, then back to more suspense, then another statement of the theme etc.). It's a new conceptualization of the music that works in its own right. I don't really care if it's "illogical" when you compare it to the film's narrative and use of music.

[indy4 155]

Maurizio, I do have to respectfully disagree with you in the sense that I think the topic is VERY interesting from a philosophical/cognitive/sociological viewpoint, since it basically has to do with how we derive pleasure from a given product. So perhaps it's less argumentative debate in nature and more philosophical conversation. It's interesting to know what 'clicks' with people and how it does it, IMO.

But as someone who views an album arrangement as a work of art, aren't there times when you think that work is lacking for some reason?

Sure, but it usually has to do with musical content. I don't usually think in alternative paths like "oh, what if Van Gogh had used blue instead of yellow here?" but rather "how and what does the yellow communicate as it's up there -- on the canvas?", to use a parallell from painting. A soundtrack album is IMO a new and finished piece of artwork based on the raw materials of the film's music, and I judge it as that. I'm not interested in the raw materials, I'm interested in how the artists mold them.

Example: People criticize JURASSIC PARK as having a bewildered thematic structure. I've never felt that. I feel that the repeat of the theme at those points gives the album almost a sonata form overall; it also adds to the ebb and flow of emotions (dissonance there, then into the majestic theme, then back to more suspense, then another statement of the theme etc.). It's a new conceptualization of the music that works in its own right. I don't really care if it's "illogical" when you compare it to the film's narrative and use of music.

Correct me if I'm wrong with any of this, but I think we've stumbled upon an important source of our disagreement (at least between you and me): you seem more like a respectful interpretor, who generally accepts a work of art as presented and tries to make artistic sense out of that, while I do what I can to manipulate that work of art in a way that artistically pleases me more than the original version might have. You are not necessarily interested in finding/creating what you determine to be the most artistically worthy version of a work of art, but rather in interpreting why a work of art was presented as it was.

I haven't been keeping track of all the C&C vs OST debates on this board in the past, but I feel like we have actually reached a more substantive conclusion than they typically do. I still don't understand everything about your preference in this area, and I certainly don't agree with you in several important regards, but it makes more sense to me now.

Anyways, time to retire for me...I'll make any responses tomorrow.

[Thor 7,478]

Correct me if I'm wrong with any of this, but I think we've stumbled upon an important source of our disagreement (at least between you and me): you seem more like a respectful interpretor, who generally accepts a work of art as presented and tries to make artistic sense out of that, while I do what I can to manipulate that work of art in a way that artistically pleases me more than the original version might have. You are not necessarily interested in finding/creating what you determine to be the most artistically worthy version of a work of art, but rather in interpreting why a work of art was presented as it was.

That is exactly right! Very well observed. I think another source of our disagreement may lie in our different paths INTO soundtrack listening, as previously mentioned.

[Brónach 1,301]

I don't see an album arrangement as a work of art just like a don't usually see a book edition as a work of art of a Blu release as a work of art.

Let's say you're in the mood to play some Williams, and since every score and its grandmother has been expanded, you reach for that version. It's 2 CD's filled to the brim (including alternates, demo takes and whatnot). How do you allow time to play out both CD's from start to finish when there are so many other things you want to listen to, and don't you at any point get 'exasperated' during the listening -- unless it's something with great thematic versatility like STAR WARS or LOTR? Or do you use the expanded CD's to listen to individual cues in a piecemeal fashion?

I can answer this in several ways.

First, a complete score doesn't mean necessarily raw and unprocessed recording sessions. Demo takes are a mere curiosity that don't belong in the score proper. Alternates are its own secondary playlist (the composer's intended cues go in the score proper, unless I like some of the other more for whatever reason). For example, I like having Goldsmith's original intentions for the short hair cue in Mulan. Sometimes alternates are an interesting way to get into the scoring process by listening, so naturally I don't see why a fan would want to miss that where an awesome score is concerned!

Second, I can extract boring cues out of the score proper sometimes.

Third, I can listen to a long score just like I can read a book. I don't feel compelled to take it all in one listen.

Fourth, yes, sometimes I just cherrypick looking for that moment I really liked and want to listen right now. Usually when I'm bored, or thinking on something else.

Finally, yes, I do get exasperated... if the score isn't good enough to hold my attention. I see that more as it being mostly uninteresting music that a poor presentation. In my opinion, the main characteristic of music, whatever the reason it was created, is that it must work as music. This is so simple and obvious to me that the discussions of film music "being created for something else and tyhen blablabla" baffles me a bit. If a lot of the score is boring I might just listen to my short presentation of the cool parts but I doubt I'll regard the score in high steem.

I'd rather not do the above work myself, but rather have the score proper and the other stuff correctly presented from the start. I shouldn't be expected to do this myself without resources or time. I'm not an album producer, much less if I don't have access to the music and I have no idea where something goes and how to fix anti-musical edits (read: artificially cutting and pasting what was thought and recorded by the composer). I also dislike copypasting the same recorded cue twice or more instead of actually composing (with variation), recording these different cues and designing it that way from the beginning.

As for short cues: basically I see all cues as a blend in a continuum. A short cue might be not noticeable at all (one would barely notice the desert flute solo in The Secret of the Unicorn is it's own cue, give that the "distance" between all the cues is the same), or it might just stick out like a sore thumb and it might go in the "extras" playlist instead of the score proper. Sometimes a cue might be noticeably short but awesome: for example, I've never heard anyone complain about the main titles of Jurassic Park or E.T. And sometimes people lament a short cue because of how cool and how short it is It's all in the specifics.

And the obssesion with cue order is to maintain the musical narrative in scores that play with that. One doesn't even need to see or to like the film for that. It's a case of what the composer did write for the job.

[Thor 7,478]

Thanks for the fleshed-out response, Chaac!

[crumbs 14,304]

Looks like we won't be getting The Reivers anytime soon for an entirely new reason. Not only a rights mess but further complicated by Sony Music refusing to deal with labels as of February 2019.

 

On 7/3/2013 at 4:37 AM, Jay said:

Worked out in my favor for stuff like Jane Eyre, 1941, and others, but it stinks I don't have The Reivers, Cowboys, Dracula, or Jaws II, and might not unless various legal problems and/or Varese's release desires change.

 

You were so close!

[Jay 37,322]

What's the point in bumping this old thread?  I don't get it

[crumbs 14,304]

Just figured it would be a helpful resource for anyone who searches for 'Reivers expansion' in years to come, as the Sony thread might be a little obscure to find by comparison. 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

FFS, on other boards, mods bark at you for making a new thread that was discussed 45 pages ago. Now they complain when you bump an old thread?

[1977 1,743]

Do threads have a sell by date? We should encourage recycling where ever possible. Resources are finite after all.

 

😋

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

23 hours ago, dougie said:

FFS, on other boards, mods bark at you for making a new thread that was discussed 45 pages ago. Now they complain when you bump an old thread?

 

Its one of Jason's weird pet peeves. Ive never understood it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Neither did mom.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What does your mum think of Jason?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

She didn't mind me watching his movies while growing up as long as I didn't directly copy any of his murders. I got into a bit of trouble with the teachers in Year 3 though.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

On 2/8/2019 at 8:54 PM, dougie said:

Neither did mom.

 

Yeah she did. Only too well. Unfortunately, she kept her illnesh from me. And all I could do wash mourn her.

[1977 1,743]

On 7/5/2013 at 1:44 AM, indy4 said:

Honestly, I don't think you can draw such absolute lines on either side of the argument. For me, it really depends on the score. 

 

I don't think there's a perfect solution...the C&C coupled with the OST seems like the least bad solution. You get a choice between a professionally assembled album (with all its imperfections and limitations) and the artless C&C presentation.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

21 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

Do threads have a sell by date? We should encourage recycling where ever possible. Resources are finite after all.

 

😋

 

We're running out of zeros and ones.

[ScorePhile 2]

On 2/9/2019 at 2:55 AM, Jurassic Shark said:

 

We're running out of zeros and ones.

I just picked up the Ultimate Edition of zeros and ones. Now with more of each! Unfortunately, some of the numbers are looped, and there are a bunch of clumsy edits.

[Thor 7,478]

On 2/7/2019 at 11:24 PM, crumbs said:

Just figured it would be a helpful resource for anyone who searches for 'Reivers expansion' in years to come, as the Sony thread might be a little obscure to find by comparison. 

 

 

I support you. I don't read most threads here, but am bound to open one with "The Reivers" in the headline. Also amusing to reread some of the  good ol' C&C debate back in 2013.