indy4 155 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I hate it when I suddenly find that a beloved JW theme or work was not entirely original. So, let's get them all out of the way quickly, like a band-aid! Also this kind of stuff can be fun. Please read some guidelines before posting:1. NO self-plagiarisms. I don't think you can compile a definitive list of those, since with any composer there will always be very similar stylistic tendencies that jump with them from film to film, so the line can be really blurry between self-plagiarisms and style. If anybody wants to hear these as well, let's do that in a different thread.2. If possible, please include a video and a time stamp for the work you're saying JW was influenced by. If you're talking about a more obscure JW work, a timestamp would be appreciated for that one as well.3. Include homages. I say this because there's often a lot of disagreement between what constitutes plagiarism vs an homage. To be safe, let's just get them all down, even if it means including blatant homages (i.e. use of the Nutcracker in Home Alone). That said, we don't need to include homages that only make sense in context (i.e., JW uses a theremin in The Fury to homage Herrmann, but the rest of that cue isn't that Herrmannesque as far as I know). That also means that these accusations aren't neccessarily going to include value judgements against JW (for those who get offended by this kind of stuff).I'll start with a few I remember right now!0:00 of Shostakovich's 5th symphony movement 1--->"Gillian's Powers" from The Fury 0:00 of this video of Dvorak's Dumky Trio---->Flying Theme from E.T. 0:00 of Copland's A Lincoln Portrait---->war motif in SPR, War Horse and Lincoln 0:13 - 0:40 of Copland's Appalachian Spring-->The People's House from Lincoln 0:11 of Mancini's "Sweetheart Tree"--->With Malice Towards None 4:17 and 6:33 of Holst's Mars: Bringer of War-->The Death Star and Main Title (respectively) from SW 0:00 of "The Charge" from War Horse (the play)--->"Charge and Capture" from War Horse (the movie)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFupJ8JqAw0:00 of "Death of Falstaff" ---> "My Friend the Brachiosaurus" 0:18 of Bernstein's "Make Our Garden Grow"---> Luke and Leia's Theme 0:00 of Tchaikovsky's Trepak--->"Making hte Plane' from Home Alone 0:11 of Tchaikovsky's "Dance of Sugar Plum Fairy" --> Main Titles from Home Alone 14:12 of Strauss' Death and Transfiguration----> Love Theme from Supermanhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFSLw2UWdB83:39 of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring--->"Death Star" from SW (and other places)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFRwKQqbk40:00 of Delerue's Agnes of God Theme ---->Face of Panhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu9Y0yQF7hM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 edit; nevermind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 If I couldn't live with it, I probably wouldn't be starting a thread asking for more...again not sure why some people act personally offended when we talk about things like this. It's a discussion board, and I'm here to discuss! Nothing wrong with understanding who inspired great composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I hate it when I suddenly find that a beloved JW theme or work was not entirely original.I hate it when phone rings while I'm taking a shower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 If plagiarism comprises the theft of musical ideas as well as notes, we could cast an even wider net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,801 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I hate it when I suddenly find that a beloved JW theme or work was not entirely original.I hate it when phone rings while I'm taking a shower.Speak up, I'm wearing a towel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airmanjerm 78 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I hate it when I suddenly find that a beloved JW theme or work was not entirely original.I hate it when phone rings while I'm taking a shower.Why is the most diabolical leader of our time surrounding himself with total nincompoops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 And, by the way, next time put my robe on after I'm out of the pool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 If you're in the shower how can you hear the phone ring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Cordless phone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Aha, assuming you take a cordless phone in the bathroom!I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I can't even hear my cellphone ring while I'm in the shower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 It's all my bad, as I misquoted the line from Superman airmanjerm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Oh I knew what you were doing. I figured you were just having some fun with the quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I take calls in the shower, bunch of spazzies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,287 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I can't even hear my cellphone ring while I'm in the shower.How loud is your shower? What are you doing in there? Ollie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 That I don't wanna know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I can't even hear my cellphone ring while I'm in the shower. How loud is your shower? What are you doing in there? You do remember, I am married.But seriously it has great water pressure and enclosed so its hard to hear outside noises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 In Mark's Shower, No One Can Hear You Scream A. A. Ron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I think this thread wins the biggest derailment award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I was amused by a FSM post with this Hanson piece: It's really the glossy 80's Williams in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Aside from that ostinato in the beginning and somewhat of the structure of the ending, I don't think ET can really be called a pastiche of the Hanson piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I hear a lot of SPACECAMP, THE MISSION (after the 5-minute mark), JURASSIC PARK, E. T. of course, and several fanfares JW wrote. I knew the piece, but listening to it after all those years reminded me how similar the approach to orchestration is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 There's certainly a similarity in gesture and overall approach to the symphonic writing as used by Williams in several of his beloved film scores. However, Williams has never hidden his love for the American school of 20th century composers like Copland, Hanson, Barber, Harris, Thomson and Bernstein. I guess it's part of his musical DNA. Like he said recently in the interview for the US Marine Band, the music of 20th century American composers is somehow the result of a great synthesis of the European classical tradition and local vernacular (jazz, folk etc), something that could very well apply to Williams' music itself. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Another one I recently stumbled upon: this gorgeous song by Camille Saint-Saens sounds very similar to JW's "When You're Alone" from Hook. At 1:28: Also this one from War Horse, which I think can be considered more of an homage to Vaughn Williams than a theft (like how composers have been referencing folk music for centuries). At 0:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 That's it! I'm burning all my Williams CDs, that friggin hack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muad'Dib 1,801 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 01:54 to 02:05 - Voldemort's Theme! Well, almost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 That's it! I'm burning all my Williams CDs, that friggin hack!I'll send you mine! Add them to your pyre!55000 posts for nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamsStarShip2282 308 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 if you combine that dvorak trio and the theme from the last two movements of mahler nine, youve got the et theme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Stop!No more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent B 337 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What a bunch of babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I was amused by a FSM post with this Hanson piece: It's really the glossy 80's Williams in a nutshell.Oh really, N**i, I though John Williams is responsible of all the evolution of the western music. He didn't inventthe romanticism, modernism, classicism or the rest of the shit?????? Damn!You should have done this other way round, learned first all the classical composers and then this shouldn't be such a news.Amused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Boooooring grandpa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Sorry Stefan, we are Almost the same age... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 How dare you!I am not an adult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Oh really, N**i, I though John Williams is responsible of all the evolution of the western music. He didn't inventthe romanticism, modernism, classicism or the rest of the shit?????? Damn!You should have done this other way round, learned first all the classical composers and then this shouldn't be such a news.Amused?I could also punch you in the face for an indefinitive time. Seems also much funnier than listening to classical music for an indefinitive time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason 1 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I hate it when I suddenly find that a beloved JW theme or work was not entirely original. So, let's get them all out of the way quickly, like a band-aid! Also this kind of stuff can be fun. Please read some guidelines before posting:1. NO self-plagiarisms. I don't think you can compile a definitive list of those, since with any composer there will always be very similar stylistic tendencies that jump with them from film to film, so the line can be really blurry between self-plagiarisms and style. If anybody wants to hear these as well, let's do that in a different thread.2. If possible, please include a video and a time stamp for the work you're saying JW was influenced by. If you're talking about a more obscure JW work, a timestamp would be appreciated for that one as well.3. Include homages. I say this because there's often a lot of disagreement between what constitutes plagiarism vs an homage. To be safe, let's just get them all down, even if it means including blatant homages (i.e. use of the Nutcracker in Home Alone). That said, we don't need to include homages that only make sense in context (i.e., JW uses a theremin in The Fury to homage Herrmann, but the rest of that cue isn't that Herrmannesque as far as I know). That also means that these accusations aren't neccessarily going to include value judgements against JW (for those who get offended by this kind of stuff).I'll start with a few I remember right now!0:00 of Shostakovich's 5th symphony movement 1--->"Gillian's Powers" from The Fury 0:00 of this video of Dvorak's Dumky Trio---->Flying Theme from E.T. 0:00 of Copland's A Lincoln Portrait---->war motif in SPR, War Horse and Lincoln 0:13 - 0:40 of Copland's Appalachian Spring-->The People's House from Lincoln 0:11 of Mancini's "Sweetheart Tree"--->With Malice Towards None 4:17 and 6:33 of Holst's Mars: Bringer of War-->The Death Star and Main Title (respectively) from SW 0:00 of "The Charge" from War Horse (the play)--->"Charge and Capture" from War Horse (the movie)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFupJ8JqAw0:00 of "Death of Falstaff" ---> "My Friend the Brachiosaurus" 0:18 of Bernstein's "Make Our Garden Grow"---> Luke and Leia's Theme 0:00 of Tchaikovsky's Trepak--->"Making hte Plane' from Home Alone 0:11 of Tchaikovsky's "Dance of Sugar Plum Fairy" --> Main Titles from Home Alone 14:12 of Strauss' Death and Transfiguration----> Love Theme from Supermanhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFSLw2UWdB83:39 of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring--->"Death Star" from SW (and other places)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFRwKQqbk40:00 of Delerue's Agnes of God Theme ---->Face of Panhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu9Y0yQF7hMI listened to these with interest, but noted only a vague similarity between these pieces and John's.Clearly words like "stealing" and "plagiarism" are inaccurate. Williams is of course influenced by his predecessors, same as any composer. Many musicians and composers in this forum are no doubt familiar with the experience of creating something "original," only to discover later that it was influenced by something now mostly forgotten by the conscious mind.There are 12 tones in the chromatic scale. That's not an infinite spectrum of note combinations. To say "John Williams stole the E.T. theme" is sort of like saying two people with a 12-block set of letter-blocks "stole" each other's word because they put the letter-blocks together in the same way.It happens. D_nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 There are 12 tones in the chromatic scale. That's not an infinite spectrum of note combinations. To say "John Williams stole the E.T. theme" is sort of like saying two people with a 12-block set of letter-blocks "stole" each other's word because they put the letter-blocks together in the same way.Some of these examples go way beyond 'totally random association'. If you listen to especially Prokoviev and Shostakovich or Copland (and Dorak) you notice that Williams used them as template. The opening to Shostis 5th is not just a bunch of dramatic chords, it's an idiomatic writing for strings and Williams honors this in THE FURY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason 1 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 There are 12 tones in the chromatic scale. That's not an infinite spectrum of note combinations. To say "John Williams stole the E.T. theme" is sort of like saying two people with a 12-block set of letter-blocks "stole" each other's word because they put the letter-blocks together in the same way.Some of these examples go way beyond 'totally random association'. If you listen to especially Prokoviev and Shostakovich or Copland (and Dorak) you notice that Williams used them as template. The opening to Shostis 5th is not just a bunch of dramatic chords, it's an idiomatic writing for strings and Williams honors this in THE FURY. There are 12 tones in the chromatic scale. That's not an infinite spectrum of note combinations. To say "John Williams stole the E.T. theme" is sort of like saying two people with a 12-block set of letter-blocks "stole" each other's word because they put the letter-blocks together in the same way.Some of these examples go way beyond 'totally random association'. If you listen to especially Prokoviev and Shostakovich or Copland (and Dorak) you notice that Williams used them as template. The opening to Shostis 5th is not just a bunch of dramatic chords, it's an idiomatic writing for strings and Williams honors this in THE FURY. Publicist, I'm not hearing the similarity. Can you please post a link to the John Williams piece you refer to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 00:25http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9pxpd_the-fury-b-de-palma-1978-extrait_shortfilms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,233 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Interesting that new posters seem to always go for the plagiarism threads first.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy4 155 Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 The opening of JW's sinfonietta is also similar to the same part from Shostakovich's 5th.Clearly words like "stealing" and "plagiarism" are inaccurate. Williams is of course influenced by his predecessors, same as any composer. Many musicians and composers in this forum are no doubt familiar with the experience of creating something "original," only to discover later that it was influenced by something now mostly forgotten by the conscious mind.I'm not trying to attach any sort of judgement to these discoveries. it's just interesting to me to hear what pieces have influenced JW. it used to bother me but not anymore, now it's just fun to try and pick them out Joni Wiljami and Jason 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Williams the hack has never written anything original. He should have stayed a jazz musician where he belonged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 The opening of JW's sinfonietta is also similar to the same part from Shostakovich's 5th.Clearly words like "stealing" and "plagiarism" are inaccurate. Williams is of course influenced by his predecessors, same as any composer. Many musicians and composers in this forum are no doubt familiar with the experience of creating something "original," only to discover later that it was influenced by something now mostly forgotten by the conscious mind.I'm not trying to attach any sort of judgement to these discoveries. it's just interesting to me to hear what pieces have influenced JW. it used to bother me but not anymore, now it's just fun to try and pick them outFANS are often very touchy about the semantics but i think it's inevitable: young people, especially if they're not from overly musical households, often listen to music as STAR WARS and assume that Williams invented this music from the scratch, in a vaguely classical idiom. If you keep on discovering the world of music you come to a point where you realize that the amount of 'homaging' is probably much higher than you would have dared to guess. Then either comes the betrayed-lover routine or the lion-momma-protects-her-babies routine - as evidenced in these threads.In the end, if you are an experienced composer you tackle this much differently, Williams probably never imagined to what extent people would put his music under close scrutiny but drew from the composer's and styles he personally loved without bothering too much about anyone connecting the dots. I think he would have been delighted at someone discovering Shostakovich by way of THE FURY (or whatever), and not at all mind that people found these connections. That you can phrase these findings in vastly different tones is another matter, of course. Dixon Hill and Jason 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,984 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 You know, the "borrowings" don't bother me nearly as much as they did when I was, say, 12-15 years younger. It just how creative process works, anyone who has ever tried to apply their talents to creating something knows this. What I don't buy about all the plagiarism criticism is that composers somehow do it "on purpose". I don't think that's how this process goes at all. Especially with film music, where the luxury of endless pondering on the subject is virtually non-existent. The influences are more or less obvious, no one is trying to challenge that. But that doesn't mean they "ripped-off" another piece of work out of laziness or lack of ideas. Human brains just don't work like that, especially the creative ones - they just don't want to repeat things.Besides, music is about the only art form where this kind of discussion takes place. Not so much with painting, sculpture - where repetition and, yes, plagiarism are part of natural development. I know, said it before.Karol Jason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 In general i agree, it's just that especially the film composers with an especially 'worthy' classical sound - this includes Williams, Horner (the early one) and in Europe Philippe Sarde - often suffer the most from direct comparisons to classical composers because their style (or better: parts of) is much more linked to that era. If you take allrounders like Morricone or Goldsmith, sure they have the same amount of leanings and citations quantitatively but their style is always clearly evident, something you just can't say about Williams or Horner channeling Strauss and so on. Their music often is more rooted in the era of another time without deviating from it too much.So my take is that i tended to be in more awe of Williams in my earlier years while dismissing less obviously 'classically' polished scores by said gentlemen and now this perception goes the other way around. I don't mean this in any way derogatory, it is just my subjective take on it that i now give more awards for distinctive personal styles rather than technical brilliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,984 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Nothing wrong with that.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I find John has a very personal sound, but you won't really hear it in STAR WARS. It's that through line that connects Treesong to NIXON, Heartwood to A.I. and so on. Dixon Hill and Marcus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 7,984 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I agree. But that is also ironic, because Star Wars sounds also nothing like any other John Williams score. That makes it unique.Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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