King Mark 3,624 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Ok, is it just me or Williams really underused the "b" or bridge themes of the main theme in all these scoresIn Star Wars trilogy it can be heard in Throne Room and a few other places like the unused music in Ice Planet Hoth (that great trumpet solo), but that's about itIn Indiana Jones, there's Desert Chase and Portuguese Coast and maybe a few other quotesIn Superman it's pretty much ignored in all of the underscore except 1 action cue. Alexander Courage really used it more in Superman 4 (like the United Nations cue)I think all these scores could have used more "noble" renditions of the "b" main themes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Perhaps in the case of Star Wars and Superman, JW didnt come up with then untill he sat down to do the full main title arrangements.With Raiders he doesnt even play Indy's theme in full up untill the submarine scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,624 Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Well in Raiders you get a lot of quotes of the A theme before that, especially in Escape from Peru and the beginning of Desert Chase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Yes, but it's never, ever played in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,624 Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 Well, ok then ,but I'm talking globally in all the Indy movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Well i guess you do have a point for the sequels.Especially Star Wars, is the B theme even in ROTJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,624 Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 hmm, I don't think soand it's not in Empire except for that unused music bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Maybe he simply forgot about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,624 Posted July 21, 2013 Author Share Posted July 21, 2013 I just wish Williams had done more variations on these b themes, as they seem to lend themselves to the kind of noble writing Williams is capable of doing. Like for more quiet and reflective moments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Emblematic of the proclivity to wanton excess that has dogged Williams his whole career. By contrast, the late, great Jerry Goldsmith -- widely celebrated as the premier composer of his generation -- wrote lean, frequently monothematic scores with nary a wasted note, a formula from which he deviated only when called upon to ape Williams' melodic extravagances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hardly monothematic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hardly monothematic!Quite so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck 154 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hlao-roo 389 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh.I believe that's below mono -- a testament to Zimmer's astounding economy of musical expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck 154 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh.I believe that's below mono -- a testament to Zimmer's astounding economy of musical expression.I believe there's a term for that - it's called nono. In Zimmer's case, he frequently uses what is generally referred to as "big nonos". Joni Wiljami and Smeltington 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightscape94 965 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Yes, but it's never, ever played in full.And to better effect because of it, up until that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,713 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Yes, but it's never, ever played in full.And to better effect because of it, up until that point.Williams really uses the B-section of the Raiders March as a kind of "turn of the tide" signal to tell us that Indy is winning or is gaining the upper hand as he is so often hard pressed to best his enemies even though he does so in the end. There is that "completing a phrase" feel to the B-section (or the bridge melody) which is determined and resolute and adds to the feeling of success of Indy's escapades whether Desert or Jungle Chase. And naturally Indy has to earn this musical signal so it is not used every time like the opening phrase of the hero's theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 I would think that there are two related reasons why these B sections don't make much of an appearance in these films.1) The A section of these themes function as the leitmotif for the hero, so there is no need to bring in the B section for any leitmotivic work (something like a little brother who's always left behind). After all, that is usually how the A section is used in these films.2) B sections are usually a sort of liaison between two thematic statements. In Star Wars, Indy, and Superman, the main function of the B section is to provide more subdued, contrasting music that builds up to a big, triumphant-sounding return of the A section. In other words, it's there to give the music a structure based on musical principles. That's why they're an absolute necessity for main-title and end-credit versions. In the course of a film, the structure of the music is dictated by the narrative, and the emotional shifts within action films are usually so quick that there's no room to have a B section that leads to a triumphant A. All you really need is action music, then the A theme when the hero is triumphant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russds 8 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Williams really uses the B-section of the Raiders March as a kind of "turn of the tide" signal to tell us that Indy is winning or is gaining the upper hand as he is so often hard pressed to best his enemies even though he does so in the end. There is that "completing a phrase" feel to the B-section (or the bridge melody) which is determined and resolute and adds to the feeling of success of Indy's escapades whether Desert or Jungle Chase. And naturally Indy has to earn this musical signal so it is not used every time like the opening phrase of the hero's theme.My thoughts were this too. There's that great use of the "B" theme in Last Crusade when Indy starts to gain ground during "The Boat Escape". It seems that JW used this theme often when Indy was gaining ground, or things were turning in his favor, and maybe just because it worked well for that. Also like @ludwig said, it seems the "B" themes were most often there for the opening and end credits, the overture sections of the score where bridges were necessary, but in some cases, as in the Indy "B" theme, it also worked great for some specific instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuttersteps 1 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Well i guess you do have a point for the sequels.Especially Star Wars, is the B theme even in ROTJ?Isn't there a quote of it in Into the Trap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Ah yes! That's a great moment actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,280 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 The Star Wars B Theme is indeed AWESOME in it's uses in Empire (Ice Planet Hoth) and Jedi (Into The Trap). I never really realized before how under-used it is, I guess.Williams is great at writing these sort of awesome mini-themes that are only used once or twice, and are good enough to be the main theme of an entire score. Like the jeep theme from Jurassic Park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewdog1 50 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 As for the Indy A and B themes, weren't they two separate main theme ideas originally and JW couldn't decide which to use and Spielberg suggested combining them? Sent from Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,624 Posted July 23, 2013 Author Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think he said that for Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,280 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 36, 35, and 32 years a little late to worry about it now, especially since all 3 scores are at the top of his game.Each is unique and a bit of perfection in their own right, russds 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koray Savas 2,251 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Hey, it's anything but mono! That's Zimmer, duh.I believe that's below mono -- a testament to Zimmer's astounding economy of musical expression.I believe there's a term for that - it's called nono. In Zimmer's case, he frequently uses what is generally referred to as "big nonos".Okay this made me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russds 8 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 As for the Indy A and B themes, weren't they two separate main theme ideas originally and JW couldn't decide which to use and Spielberg suggested combining them?Sent from TapatalkTrue. Spielberg has mentioned that in a few interviews I've seen. I've always wondered how the theme/score would have gone if he had chosen just one. It's fun to imagine a Raiders march just based on theme A or B. How sweet would it be to hear some full theme demo that JW did 36+ years ago that had just used theme A or B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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