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Star Wars Prequel Music General Discussion


JohnnyD

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You know what always weirdly makes me want to watch the prequels? The theme that starts like this. I don't really remember what it stands for in the film (AOTC), but I'm sure someone does.

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You mean the Separatists motif? It is the main motif for the Separatists, Jango Fett and Dooku and the whole plot to create the clone army.

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I was always curious what that synth/choir part was in Yoda Strikes Back when Dooku drops the ceiling rocks on Yoda. My guess is that it was a Ben Burtt edit through, considering the original version doesn't contain the synth and chimes. Still wondering what that synth was through... sounded like Ben Burtt loaded a crappy choral VST on his computer and pressed a bunch of random keys for around 15 seconds. Sounds kind of spooky. I also noticed it has a similar "melody" to the soprano part in the finale when Dooku meets up with Sidious.

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  • 10 months later...

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to have this discussion but do you think it's fair to say that for the prequels JW was scoring in an intentionally melodramatic fashion, almost writing for what's intended but not successfully executed in the film itself? I'm not sure how else to put it but the prequel scores seem accutely melodramatic in an attention-grabbing way.

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Yea, he seemed to find his own inspiration and scored the vision his friend George had more than the actual filmed output of that vision.  I dunno.

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I think the finished prequels carry immense emotional weight, so I don't know why Williams would need to look too far beyond that for inspiration. I mean, Windu vs. Palpatine, and the prequels in general, are about as tragic as tragedy gets (at least when tragic is used in the proper literary sense). 

 

But I am a huge Star Wars fan who's probably drawn into the story more than most. I seem to be one of the only few people that appreciate the prequels as the masterpieces that they are.

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At that age I thought they were masterpieces too. Thank god I evolved into someone more critical of his absurd fandom.

 

:P

 

On a totally unrelated note, does anyone know what synthesizer(s) was/were used for the prequels? @Sharkus Malarkus, @Datameister I believe I've found some similar, perhaps even identical patches on a Nord Stage (the Nord Stage 2 was used for TFA).

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8 minutes ago, Jilal said:

On a totally unrelated note, does anyone know what synthesizer(s) was/were used for the prequels? @Sharkus Malarkus, @Datameister I believe I've found some similar, perhaps even identical patches on a Nord Stage (the Nord Stage 2 was used for TFA).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Randy had a Nord Lead 2 or 3 for the prequels, or maybe something like an Access Virus or Waldorf Q. The synths have a sound I associate with the virtual analogues of that era. They'd also be a tonne of digital delays, reverbs and so on in the give life to it. 

 

Could you post a snippet of that patch you're talking of?

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57 minutes ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Randy had a Nord Lead 2 or 3 for the prequels, or maybe something like an Access Virus or Waldorf Q. The synths have a sound I associate with the virtual analogues of that era. They'd also be a tonne of digital delays, reverbs and so on in the give life to it. 

 

Could you post a snippet of that patch you're talking of?

 

This is a strong contender for the synth glockenspiel:

 

http://picosong.com/tnBs

 

It's the chimy patch on the Nord Stage.

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7 minutes ago, Jilal said:

 

This is a strong contender for the synth glockenspiel:

 

http://picosong.com/tnBs

 

It's the chimy patch on the Nord Stage.

 

Made me wonder, do you think the patch used to double the DOTF motif in the battle music is the same as the one used at the beginning here?

 

 

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This is by far one of the coolest synth patches in the prequel trilogy. Going by the score I suppose it's a vocal/choral pad - not a Nord Stage one at least.

 

 

Look what I found! Source: Click.

 

1_zpszmgwjgx8.jpg

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Doesn't the Nord Stage have choir patches? Play around with the FM operators until you find something choir-like, and combine it with a string-pad patch (detuned, bandpassed pulse or saw waves). Add lots of phasing for movement. For formant synthesis (human vowel sounds) use multiple bandpass filters (at least two) each with their own resonance value.

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If anyone here thinks that my young age is leading me to blindly love the prequels: I must strongly refute that. It's true that I have only seen TPM twice and AOTC and ROTS once each. But that's far from all my experience with the films. I've part read, part skimmed the TPM screenplay. I've looked at every page in the TPM art of book. I've looked at most pages in the AOTC art book. I've read the entire TPM making of book. I've read a ten-page essay explaining the genius of the prequels. 

 

By the way, the essay should be required reading for anyone before they start bashing the prequels. It presents compelling evidence suggesting that George Lucas used an incredibly complex ring composition structure in the Star Wars saga. Just look up Star Wars ring theory and you'll find it. If indeed the ring is something Lucas intended, then the prequels are probably the greatest filmmaking achievement ever.

 

I must also note as I have before that my criteria for a good Star Wars movie may be a lot different than yours. What I want is a complex story, preferably with lots of politics, interesting and fantastical worlds (the prequels were terrific in this regard, making the galaxy feel lived in and expansive), and emotional weight (something that I think the epic tragedy of the prequels carries a lot of). There are some movies that I go to that I mainly want to be light hearted fun; Star Wars is not one of them. Additionally, I don't pay too much attention to camera angles, acting, etc. in the prequels. My focus is on the story and all I notice is that the other stuff is good enough to make the story interesting and emotionally relevant. 

 

Again, though, I can't stress enough how fascinating the ring theory is. You all should really read it - it may well transform your view of the prequels. The complexity described is mind boggling. We may never know if it's something Lucas intended unfortunately, but I'd be hard-pressed to believe it's all a coincidence. 

 

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Your definition of "lived in" is not the same as mine!

49 minutes ago, Will said:

 What I want is...interesting and fantastical worlds (the prequels were terrific in this regard, making the galaxy feel...expansive).

So how come prequels shrink the universe so much?

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As someone who enjoys the prequels for what they are, I'd recommend Plinkett's hilarious yet insightful YouTube reviews to anyone who holds the prequels on high esteem. They may help clarify others' point of view - although if something like the quality of the acting doesn't influence your enjoyment of a film, your perspective may just be fundamentally incompatible. If you're not just trolling, that is...no offense intended whatsoever, but when someone starts calling the prequels the greatest filmmaking achievement ever, little alarm bells start going off. ;)

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9 hours ago, Fennel Ka said:

 

So how come prequels shrink the universe so much?

 

What do you mean by that? 

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13 hours ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

Doesn't the Nord Stage have choir patches? Play around with the FM operators until you find something choir-like, and combine it with a string-pad patch (detuned, bandpassed pulse or saw waves). Add lots of phasing for movement. For formant synthesis (human vowel sounds) use multiple bandpass filters (at least two) each with their own resonance value.

 

I tried creating a similar patch in Omnisphere 2 using a built-in Whistling Choir one:

 

http://picosong.com/tR4s/

 

I added just a little bit of phasing. Sounds pretty close! I suppose using a Women's Choirs Oos type of patch would have worked as well - I'm not sure if this one would be able to create the more identifiable choir sound at 1:14 in Bounty Hunter's Pursuit.


EDIT: Combining the Whistling Choir patch with a Boy's Choir Oos and delaying the attack of both by about a second does the trick. Very "hologram"-esque in the upper register, and more choir-esque in the lower.

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13 hours ago, Datameister said:

As someone who enjoys the prequels for what they are, I'd recommend Plinkett's hilarious yet insightful YouTube reviews to anyone who holds the prequels on high esteem. They may help clarify others' point of view - although if something like the quality of the acting doesn't influence your enjoyment of a film, your perspective may just be fundamentally incompatible. If you're not just trolling, that is...no offense intended whatsoever, but when someone starts calling the prequels the greatest filmmaking achievement ever, little alarm bells start going off. ;)

 

I did indeed just watch all of Plinkett's TPM review videos. I may or may not watch others some time. I think I've seen enough to deliver my response, regardless. :)

 

By the way, I didn't mean that I don't think the acting quality matters in the prequels. It absolutely matters to me. But only to the point that it makes the story effectively emotionally resonant and interesting. It doesn't mean anything by itself, so little things that could have been a little better don't bother me. All I require from the actors in this case is what's necessary and nothing more.

 

And I am certainly not trolling. :) As you have seen on the forums I am a legitimate Williams fan, and I'm just saying that I'm a legitimate prequel fan. It seems to have become cool to not like the prequels, which is unfortunate. I'm sure many have legitimate reasons for this but it does seem that there are a lot of people who just want to scrutinize every part of the films and smear them. I mean, Plinkett mentioned minor continuity errors and such repeatedly. There was some of that in TFA but I haven't really heard anyone here complaining. 

 

My statement about greatest filmmaking achievement has a catch - I think that's only true if Lucas intended to make SW a ring composition. We may never know whether he did. As I've said the incredibly researched ring theory article is highly recommended. One thing of countless things it explains is how midichlorians were actually important to the story, as they were a key part of rich symbolism used by Lucas (assuming it's not all a coincidence and he actually intended this).

 

Again, the difference in opinion may come down to my tastes being different. I love the complicated, politics filled plot and the rich, complex symbolism. I find it delightful. Others may find it boring. I've been really interested in world affairs since I was very little. As long as I can remember I've been reading the newspaper every morning. As you might imagine, SW politics is something I find very interesting. 

 

Plinkett's analysis was interesting, and he made many valid points, but he also made many I strongly disagree with. And his constant swearing did not help his case. 

 

He seemed very focused on little details. There he made some good points but I didn't consider many of those things to be very important.

 

When he mentioned the broader strokes, I generally strongly disagreed. He used too much rhetoric in saying this or that was bad, the plot made no sense, etc. I don't think it's as much that the plot doesn't make sense; I think it's just that some don't want to take the time to understand it. Which is understandable. 

 

SW isn't really for little kids IMO. It's a complex, intricately layered epic saga that deserves to be studied right along with classic works of literature. 

 

And that brings me to my final point: I look at SW (aside from the terrific music, which I'm not discussing here) a little more like a book than a film. To me it's almost like the filmed version is icing on the cake; it's only there to make the story resonate further.

 

At the center of everything is the story that was written by Lucas and the other SW screenwriters.

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10 minutes ago, Will said:

It seems to have become cool to not like the prequels, which is unfortunate

 

Become?

 

Most people hated the prequels from the moment TPM ended on opening night

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37 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Become?

 

Most people hated the prequels from the moment TPM ended on opening night

 

Whatever, I wasn't born yet. :lol:

 

My point was simply that it seems the vast majority of people don't like the prequels.

 

By the way I do just want to reiterate that I'm not trolling. I've noticed that I'm starting to sound like a troll, but I promise you that is not my intent. I'm just trying to have an interesting discussion about the prequels. I want to examine others' point of view and I hope others do the same for mine, even if they don't agree with it.

 

I do not mean to say that anyone who doesn't like the prequels is stupid or has bad taste, and I apologize if that was ever implied. I understand that others have different tastes and different opinions for various legitimate reasons. My mission isn't really to convert prequel haters to prequel fans. It's more in the hope that others will understand why I think what I do, rather than being dismissive of this opinion, as at least a few have been. I certainly don't mean prequel haters are bad people; this is simply one ultimately minor opinion that I disagree with. It's nothing more than that. Many prequel haters are terrific people, and I don't want to put distance between myself and them. 

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2 minutes ago, Fennel Ka said:

Just curious, have you read any of the EU novels? I think you'd like em.

 

Not the old EU. But the new one, yes, a few. :)

 

Are there any you'd specifically recommend? 

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Obviously Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn Duology.

 

I also enjoyed Tatooine Ghost, The New Jedi Order starts out sort of weak, but picks up with Luceno's duology.

 

Jedi Academy trilogy is good, but a bit quirky and has two superweapons (one even being the Prototype Death Star)

 

Correllian Trilogy is decent.

 

Courtship of Princess Leia and Truce at Bakura are not really that great, but introduce some things that have roles in later books

 

Skip Barbara Hamblys books and The Crystal Star.

 

Dark Nest trilogy is a bit meh

 

Legacy of the Force is good, and has some things similar to what happened in TFA

 

Fate of the Jedi is good.

 

Check out the last two series in Audiobook form, the usage of SW SFX and Music, plus an actual voice actor doing voices for each character is phenomenal. 

 

The interest thing is that quite a few of the books stand on their own, they do fit together in larger story,  there are mysteries that were established in the books released pre-TPM that payed off in 2008-2012.

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I would be able to reconcile the bad stuff in the prequels so much better if there wasn't so much good stuff mixed in - design, effects, fights, ideas, etc.  I think it's possible that a different director could take the same scripts and make really good Star Wars movies.  I don't feel like the actors were ever really engaged with the material, and that might have something to do with the scripts, something to do with the direction, something to do with the significant amount of CGI/blue screen they were acting against.

 

For me, the quality of The Clone Wars and some of the supporting books/comics have really redeemed the prequels for me.  Lucas' worldbuilding has been put to good use.  It's been years since I've seen the prequels (about 5 years for TPM and AOTC, and 10 years since ROTS), and that distance has softened me a little bit to those movies.
 

33 minutes ago, Will said:

 

Not the old EU. But the new one, yes, a few. :)

 

Are there any you'd specifically recommend? 

 

I've never been a huge proponent of the Zahn books - they had a huge burden to bear as the "first" EU books (or at least the first in about a decade), and they're very referential to the original movies, to a fault (why are these characters almost exclusively making references to this four year period in their lives, many years later?).  I hated the clone plot (Joruuuuuus and Luuuuuuuuuuuke), although the books did pay dividends with classic Star Wars characters like Thrawn, Karrde, and especially Mara Jade.

 

You can't go wrong with the X-Wing series of books, in my opinion.  The original 1970s Han Solo trilogy is a lot of fun.  More recently, Scoundrels and Kenobi are good bets.  Look into A New Dawn, Aftermath, Lost Stars, Twilight Company, and Bloodline from the new canon (if you haven't already). 

 

A lot of people seem to be really into the Darth Bane and Darth Plagueis books.  If I were you, I'd avoid the Jedi Academy trilogy and The Courtship of Princess Leia.

 

And I'd strongly recommend Marvel's run of comics since they got the license back from Dark Horse - especially the main Star Wars book (especially the first arc and the prison arc), the Princess Leia mini, the Lando mini, Shattered Empire, and the first half of the Kanan run.  Your mileage may vary with the Darth Vader ongoing depending on how much you want to see of the title character, but it's introduced some really cool characters into Star Wars like Aphra and her murderbots.

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Oh forgot to mention: some would recommend Shadows of the Empire while I.... really would'nt, I felt that Luke felt out of character for where he is in his life at that time.

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Sorry to keep shoving my prequel love down your throats, but there is one more thing I should mention. 

 

SW is meant to be looked at as one story told in six episodes, basically. I don't look at TPM or any of the prequels as an isolated work. That YouTube guy was going on and on about how TPM doesn't have a main character, seemingly ignoring the other films of the saga. I think it's pretty clear Anakin is the main character when you look at the full picture. The YouTube guy generally stays away from references to how TPM's plot relates to that of the rest of the saga even though that relationship is absolutely vital in order to appreciate the film to the fullest and understand it as it was meant to be understood.

 

The Naboo crisis is merely a subplot, for instance. It's the broader strokes that ultimately matter.

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I feel like you should get along greatly with ET&Elliot, if only for the fact that when you like something, there's no way convicing you otherwise.

 

My comment is intented in good fun, just in case.

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32 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

I feel like you should get along greatly with ET&Elliot, if only for the fact that when you like something, there's no way convicing you otherwise.

 

Often I can be convinced otherwise. But in this case, probably not. :lol:

36 minutes ago, Muad'Dib said:

I feel like you should get along greatly with ET&Elliot.

 

Does he like the prequels? Or do you mean just in general he stubbornly takes unpopular viewpoints? 

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It's most certainly always been in vogue to hate on the prequels, but mostly just because they shat vigorously on everything most Star Wars fans had previously loved. The original trilogy featured archetypal characters, clear plots, minimal kiddie humor, and acting that rarely dipped below "passable." For the prequels, the "faster, more intense" mantra was replaced with slow expository dialogue that didn't actually expose much, a lot of it revolving around political subplots that never connected with the audience in any human level. "Tell, don't show" was the name of the game.

 

The degree to which you enjoy the prequels is mostly just a function of what's important to you in a film. The films have plenty to offer. Those offerings just don't line up with what most people wanted.

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For what it's worth, ROTS was my first Star Wars movie on the big screen and I've always had a soft spot for it. I don't know exactly why, I just like it. A large part has to be due to the score, it has always fascinated me.

 

TPM has some nice parts but it gets boring too quickly, and AOTC I can't even watch.

 

 

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I enjoy them all, and I think they're all incredibly disappointing when you compare them to what they could have been. The underlying story is solid and there's some great visual design going on. The details of the execution are just so off.

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I enjoyed all 3 prequel films as fun popcorn movies to see in theaters with a packed house. But it would take special effort for me to pretend that all 3 are not terribly executed films. Funnily enough, TPM is the most competent of all 3 as far as production, acting, etc go but it is also the most boring. Only JW consistently brought his A-game to all 3 films. Unfortunately Ben Burt made sure to mess with the music at every available opportunity.

 

And for the record, George Lucas has always said that Star Wars films are fun weekend popcorn movies first and foremost. So I enjoy them for what they are.

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I quite like the prequels too. But they definitely could have been a whole lot better.

Actually, I was probably more disappointed with the latter Harry Potter films.

 

Indiana Jones 4 definitely took a pointless turn for the worse as well.

But comparing the final film to the original Saucer Men from Mars story, it also at least did not turn out as bad as it cold have done.

Apart from the gophers and groin jokes. Those I could definitely do without.

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17 hours ago, Will said:

SW isn't really for little kids IMO. It's a complex, intricately layered epic saga that deserves to be studied right along with classic works of literature. 

 

And that brings me to my final point: I look at SW (aside from the terrific music, which I'm not discussing here) a little more like a book than a film. To me it's almost like the filmed version is icing on the cake; it's only there to make the story resonate further.

 

At the center of everything is the story that was written by Lucas and the other SW screenwriters.

 

No, sorry. Star Wars at its best works well both for kids and adults (or at least adults "with a kids' heart", to use a worn out definition) as simple, clear storytelling infused with myth archetypes. And Star Wars at its best is first and foremost great cinema, which is the blending of story, direction, acting, technical craft, music and so on. The whole is definitely much more than the sum of its parts. The original three films (albeit with their own shortcomings here and there, ie almost exclusively some choices made in ROTJ) are a good example of this recipe. The prequels instead might have had good ingredients, but the final result isn't great cinema, sadly. I still accept them for what they are, though, i.e. the attempt at giving a larger canvas of backstory and characters to what was already done and told.

 

EDIT: I found this nice interview with JW about The Phantom Menace, I don't think it was ever posted here:

 

 

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@TownerFan @artguy360

 

*This post has been edited for clarity*

 

It's hard not to get the sense that in the prequels Lucas was purposely shifting away at least a little from the Saturday afternoon adventure serial feeling of the originals. I mean, 6 films that he says are about the fall and redemption of Vader - that's not only fun kids stuff anymore, really. That's an epic saga that deserves to be studied and treasured by film (and ideally literature) scholars.

 

TownerFan, I know you have some reservations about "personal taste," but I think I just have to come back to something I said earlier: I look at Star Wars a little like a book, so the story is at the center. I most value rich symbolism and complex storytelling. For me the acting, directing, etc. is only important to the film insofar as it is good enough to make the story interesting and give it the required impact. And I don't require much more.

 

You seem to look at it differently. You look at direction and acting as an art on its own and look at the fine details of those arts. You think the story is only a small part of Star Wars and you focus on the other things equally.

 

To me, everything else in a SW film is in service to the story. Others may think differently.

 

(By the way, this post doesn't deal with Williams's terrific music; I'm talking about other stuff) 

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2 hours ago, Will said:

@TownerFan @artguy360

 

*Th I mean, 6 films that he says are about the fall and redemption of Vader

Lucas is not always the most trustworthy guy in regard to referring to his original vision and such.

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Lucas has waffled on the number of movies he "originally envisioned" for years - 6, 9, 12.  He's notorious for saying things on the record and then contradicting himself shortly after, also on the record.  It seems so weird that Lucas would continuously revise his "original vision."  What is the benefit of everything stemming from some original grand vision, as opposed to a series of sequels and prequels that expand the universe?  Lucas' goal might be to seem like a mastermind, but if you follow his press for any period of time he just ends up seeming like a flip-flopper.

 

The original Star Wars was originally made because Lucas couldn't get the rights to Flash Gordon and he wanted to make a space adventure serial.  It went through so many drafts and so many major changes in preproduction, production, and post-production, it's hard to believe that Lucas really had any grand scheme envisioned for the saga (at least until preproduction on Empire).

 

Also note that the book "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" was Lucas' planned low-budget sequel option for Star Wars; it didn't really fit into the "grand Anakin saga," nor did it fit into the Luke/Leia sibling plot (large portions of prose about Luke being horny for Leia in the first half, if I recall correctly).

 

By the time the prequels rolled around, his stated original vision turned into "the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker."  It was a nice way to frame the saga once the prequels were here - hard to believe that it was his vision from day one on SW though.  If Disney/LFL had ended up using Lucas' outlines for VII, VIII, and IX, I wonder what his story/"vision" would have morphed into.

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2 hours ago, WojinPA said:

The bare bones of the story are strong, but I've seen pornos with better written dialogue and more believable acting. 

 

And a more satisfying climax, too.

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7 hours ago, Fennel Ka said:

Lucas is not always the most trustworthy guy in regard to referring to his original vision and such.

 

I wasn't referring to the original vision - that didn't matter for what I was trying to say. All I meant was that at the time of the prequels' construction, Lucas envisioned the SW saga as one centrally about the fall and rise of Vader. 

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