Composer Threads The Official James Horner Thread

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

In Horner's case that argument has some merit.

Fixed.

[KK 3,307]

He probably finds bashing film composers quite thrilling.

Though from the signs, it seems like this piece is really just more of the same. Which is a pity, because I was hoping Horner would expand his horizons with this opportunity.

[crocodile 8,000]

I think the notion is still the same as in the 30's: that film composers are essentially music hall hacks who steal and plunder the precious classical repertoire. That in Horner's case that argument is not entirely without merit, well...

It goes without saying that a character like this very reviewer certainly has never made the effort or even had a piqued curiosity in exploring a film composer (why bother?). They live in a secluded world forever sealed from modern culture.

There's no denying that many (if not most) concert pieces are better structured than any given film score.

But... I'd like to see Stravinsky, Vaughan-Williams, Mozart of Beethoven crank out a film score in three weeks, with ever changing cuts. I doubt many of those guys would last long in this field..

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In-fucking-deed!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

In two of those cases, you're wrong.

[crocodile 8,000]

?

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

List me 6 of Mozarts best scores!

[Incanus 5,714]

Vaughan Williams composed for films too.

[crocodile 8,000]

I know. But he didn't have to do with Avid, Ben Burtt, focus groups, studio executives and... Peter Jackson. He probably did have a decent amount of time to do it. I'd like to hear those scores, rewritten at 11th hour.

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Stravinsky would almost certainly have thrived as a film composer. And Vaughan Williams did. As did Takemitsu, Shostakovich, Honneger, Copland, Walton, and of course Korngold. There's not as much of a gap here as people seem to want to believe. Making music is making music. The time scales involved merely require some adaptation to manage.

If many modern concert composers aren't terribly active in scoring, it's likely because the film language is already so influential on their own. And of course there is still a lingering sense of film scoring as degenerate art. But thankfully that generation will be dead soon.

Oh, and John Corigliano is another guy who bridges the gap effortlessly. And Phil Glass.

[crocodile 8,000]

I know what you're saying. But these guys worked on films... back then.

And Stravinsky rejected some projects, or even wrote something for them. And it didn't work out.

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Well I'd wager that there's the same proportion, or likely an even greater one, of today's concert composers who work in film too. Maybe in fifty or a hundred years we'll have a clearer picture of it like we do with those older guys.

I just don't buy into this separation of compositional pursuits. I know many of you don't like the fact that high-brow snoots want to segregate film scoring. But you can't have it both ways by simultaneously talking about how concert composers don't have what it takes or how they write boring crap and only JW's main titles hits will stand the test of time. Get real.

[crocodile 8,000]

Is this what I said? I'm merely pointing out practicalities. Many, if not most, great concert pieces, were composed over a very long period of time. Years, sometimes. I doubt they would deliver the goods to such level of quality in two weeks. Really doubt it.

In other words: concert composers wouldn't do any better job than contemporary film composers on same films with same timetable.

Karol

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Sorry Karol, second part was not directed at you.

But, if great music can be delivered in short timespans as well, what makes it impossible for some composers to do that, while others can? Certainly not the medium for which you usually write. It's a matter of flexibility, which will vary from person to person, wherever their music is most commonly heard.

Oh and sure, no one is saying that either, that John Adams would be able to score a film more successfully than Williams or someone just by virtue of being a "real" composer. Not at all. All I'm arguing against here is the idea that these two worlds need to be so distinct, and that one is somehow less legitimate than the other - which certain people *do* seem to believe, as more than just a matter of their taste. The only elitism in this thread has comically come from those accusing others of it.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Stravinsky would almost certainly have thrived as a film composer.

He tried his hand at it with JANE EYRE, but Warner Brothers deemed the music too prominent and competed for audiences' attention.

If many modern concert composers aren't terribly active in scoring, it's likely because the film language is already so influential on their own. And of course there is still a lingering sense of film scoring as degenerate art. But thankfully that generation will be dead soon.

I have a bad feeling this blogger is much younger. This is his second post--he's only just started.

[crocodile 8,000]

Sorry Karol, second part was not directed at you.

But, if great music can be delivered in short timespans as well, what makes it impossible for some composers to do that, while others can? Certainly not the medium for which you usually write. It's a matter of flexibility, which will vary from person to person, wherever their music is most commonly heard.

Oh and sure, no one is saying that either, that John Adams would be able to score a film more successfully than Williams or someone just by virtue of being a "real" composer. Not at all. All I'm arguing against here is the idea that these two worlds need to be so distinct, and that one is somehow less legitimate than the other - which certain people *do* seem to believe, as more than just a matter of their taste. The only elitism in this thread has comically come from those accusing others of it.

The thing I'm concerned about is not whether they could do it but rather whether they should. Sharky's example in the post above is a good example why. Maybe the things that make their music so special are sometimes things that wouldn't serve another medium. I guess we'll never know.

Karol

[TownerFan 4,983]

Film composers that try out the concert hall (especially those who are immensely popular, like Williams and Horner) are more often than not lambasted by a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" attitude, both from critics and the audience--labeled as "too pretentious/intellectual" if they go one route, or "too commercial/derivative" if they go another.

I think when you reached such success and glory thanks to your artistic achievement (in whatever field you practice), if you want to try a different venue you don't have to prove anything to anybody except yourself. Williams, Horner, Broughton, Goldenthal and many other composers who went into the concert hall territory after a long and distinguished career in film never did it for the critics, nor they did it to find a new audience. They always did it primarily for themselves (and for the people who played for them, of course), for the sheer joy of the music-making (and most likely to take a break from the taxing technicalities of film scoring).

I'm always interested to hear film composers in different kind of settings and I'm eager to listen to Horner's concert piece. Should I expect something earth-shattering or revolutionary? No. I'm just curious to hear how he approached a territory unusual for him and how he tried to solve a different set of musical problems. The little tidbits heard in the YouTube promo surely piqued my attention.

[publicist 4,643]

Horner sure knows how to stay on top of any controversy in musicdom, that much is certain.

[publicist 4,643]

PS: having listened to the audio leak form the concert (about 23 minutes worth) i'd say that the 'concerto' is a more refined, seasoned version of typical Horner film music, raging between the generous romanticism of ONCE UPON A FOREST via IRIS/SPITFIRE GRILL (a more concertant treatment of his lush Vaughan-Williams-styled nature music) and the urging romantic minimalism of A BEAUTIFUL MIND - the final piece - that is also the most exiting part.

It's a rush of sugar, really, but exactly right for the season. I can see that musical scholars might have problems with its breezy Hollywood style that while pleasing on the ears is not exactly a match for Brahms - whom James Horner cited as having written the last double concerto before his very own kingly endeavors which is of course utter nonsense, though it might give you an indication toward which audience this work is geared.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who is Brahms? What films has he scored?

[Wojo 2,453]

Johannes. You know, classical music, the intellectual heritage of Europe. Film music is pedestrian and plebian by comparison.

[publicist 4,643]

Who is Brahms? What films has he scored?

THERE WILL BE BLOOD, TRUMAN SHOW, THE NUTTY PROFESSOR and many others but he always got rejected in favor of other composers so that only tiny fragments of his scores remain.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Obviously not as successful as Horner then

[Omen II 1,235]

Who is Brahms? What films has he scored?

Inception has a lot of Braaaaaaaaaahms in it.

[Jay 37,346]

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

PS: having listened to the audio leak form the concert (about 23 minutes worth) i'd say that the 'concerto' is a more refined, seasoned version of typical Horner film music, raging between the generous romanticism of ONCE UPON A FOREST via IRIS/SPITFIRE GRILL (a more concertant treatment of his lush Vaughan-Williams-styled nature music) and the urging romantic minimalism of A BEAUTIFUL MIND - the final piece - that is also the most exiting part.

It's a rush of sugar, really, but exactly right for the season. I can see that musical scholars might have problems with its breezy Hollywood style that while pleasing on the ears is not exactly a match for Brahms - whom James Horner cited as having written the last double concerto before his very own kingly endeavors which is of course utter nonsense, though it might give you an indication toward which audience this work is geared.

It's not bad by any means. Not bad. Just sort of formless and monochromatic... which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[King Mark 3,631]

it's nice

[crocodile 8,000]

Who is Brahms? What films has he scored?

THERE WILL BE BLOOD, TRUMAN SHOW, THE NUTTY PROFESSOR and many others but he always got rejected in favor of other composers so that only tiny fragments of his scores remain.

He did some additional music on Die hard 3, I think.

Karol

[Jay 37,346]

Horner has a third score coming out this year!

It's called Southpaw and is about a boxer

[karelm 2,912]

I am listening to Krull at the moment. Such a fantastic sci-fi/fantasy/adventure score of the early 1980's. One thing I've been wondering though is does this score have a greater debt to John Williams ergo Star Wars or Jerry Goldsmith from the Star Trek movie? I believe Goldsmith's Star Trek was strongly influenced by the retro scoring of Star Wars but still there is enough of Goldsmith to show. I believe Krull predates Horner's own star trek efforts but clearly is cut from the same cloth. Basically, who is Horner emulating with this score? Even though it is very original to his style, there are still homages to others throughout.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I don't know. In any case, that was a fantastic era for film scores.

[karelm 2,912]

Yes for sure! Now, I'm listening to Star Trek II and it can almost be a sequel to Krull. It stars exactly like Krull ends. Horner's scores of that era have such a rhythmic intensity. It is also interesting that 1982's Kahn overuses the danger motif that is not even present in Krull from the same year.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

TWOK a sequel to Krull? But TWOK was first.

[Jay 37,346]

They are not the same year karelm. Wrath of Khan opened June 1982 and Krull opened over a year later in July 1983

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Unless Jamie is a time traveller.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Horner ripped off his future scores.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes for sure! Now, I'm listening to Star Trek II and it can almost be a sequel to Krull. It stars exactly like Krull ends. Horner's scores of that era have such a rhythmic intensity. It is also interesting that 1982's Kahn overuses the danger motif that is not even present in Krull from the same year.

Lol!

I'm sorry but your post is ridiculously uninformed.

TWOK a sequel to Krull? Khan's danger motif?

[Incanus 5,714]

Yes for sure! Now, I'm listening to Star Trek II and it can almost be a sequel to Krull. It stars exactly like Krull ends. Horner's scores of that era have such a rhythmic intensity. It is also interesting that 1982's Kahn overuses the danger motif that is not even present in Krull from the same year.

Lol!

I'm sorry but your post is ridiculously uninformed.

TWOK a sequel to Krull? Khan's danger motif?

Well TWOK does make quite a liberal use of the Horner danger motif.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If i recall correctly the most obvious rendition shows up in the opening of Surprise attack and that's pretty much is.

It isnt even near to being as prominent as in Horners later scores, starting with Willow.

[Incanus 5,714]

If i recall correctly the most obvious rendition shows up in the opening of Surprise attack and that's pretty much is.

It isnt even near to being as prominent as in Horners later scores, starting with Willow.

Well that is true. Horner did make it into a proper bad guy theme in Willow which explains its frequent appearances although it is almost unpalatable to me these days for that very reason. Da-da-da-daaa.

And we were stuck with the little ditty ever since.

[publicist 4,643]

Maybe he became a bit shy on this score when Nicholas Meyer called him out on it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Um...no.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Are you sure you know what exactly the 4 note Danger motif is? Or what Khan's theme is?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Proof it!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jim Ware 526]

Bumped into this guy after the 'preview' performance of Titanic - Live last night...or should that be this morning?

[crocodile 8,000]

Awesome.

What were you doing in Lucerne, Jim?

Karol