crocodile 8,012 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 It's not even that they're identical. But we've been trained for years now how Shore likes to bend and change musical lines. So it's no wonder we're looking for connections everywhere.It's his fault!Karol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 The thing about the Mirkwood music is that the motif isn't event central component to it.I have noticed three components to the Mirkwood music, a three note descending motif, the 6 note motif that sounds like Smaug, and the 15 (or 11) note descending B section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Five!:Bard the Grim.Bard the LeaderBard and FamilyGirion/BardLaketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Five!:Bard the Grim.Bard the LeaderBard and FamilyGirion/BardLaketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example?Timestamp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted January 1, 2015 Author Share Posted January 1, 2015 And here's disc 2. Sorry, I didn't get to Thrain BOFA 2-01 The Darkest Hour 0:02-0:07 Gandalf The Grey 0:28-0:31 Bard’s Family 0:34-0:50 Dol Goldur Army 1:11-2:06 House of Durin (fractured) 2:06-2:34 Thorin 2:23-2:34 Erebor 2:34-3:14 House of Durin (History of the Ring combo version) 4:11-4:30 Lake-town 4:30-5:07 Lake-town/Bard 5:07-5:34 Lake-town BOFA 2-02 Sons Of Durin 0:02-0:25 House of Durin 0:25-0:55 Thorin 0:55-1:12 ???? 1:12-1:26 Erebor 1:33-1:48 Descending Thirds 2:17-2:22 Thorin 2:50-3:01 Erebor 3:09-3:19 Thorin 3:19-3:33 Dol Goldur Army 3:54-4:24 The Warg Riders BOFA 2-03 The Fallen 0:49-1:21 Thorin 1:21-1:45 The Woodland Realm 1:58-2:16 The Woodland Realm 2:45-2:50 The Woodland Realm 2:50-3:04 Descending Thirds variation? 3:50-3:57 The Shire variation? BOFA 2-04 Ravenhill 0:44-1:04 Ancient Enemies 1:07-1:25 Gundabad March 2:06-2:12 The Woodland Realm 2:49-2:56 The Woodland Realm 2:56-3:01 Descending Thirds 3:01-3:09 ??? 3:32-3:39 Tauriel and Kili 3:39-3:55 Tauriel (B Section) 4:35-5:11 Tauriel and Kili (Intro) BOFA 2-05 To The Death 0:52-1:05 Legolas/Bolg 1:47-1:50 Thorin 2:42-2:55 Legolas/Bolg 2:44-2:55 The Woodland Realm 3:38-3:45 Descending Thirds 3:50-3:58 Descending Thirds 4:10-4:15 Descending Thirds 4:22-4:38 Nature’s Reclamation 4:43-5:07 Eagle Rescue BOFA 2-06 Courage And Wisdom 1:50-2:11 Thorin 2:05-2:11 Erebor (B Section) 2:41-3:15 Tauriel and Kili 3:15-3:33 Thranduil’s Theme 3:40-3:50 The Fellowship of The Ring 3:54-4:07 Tauriel 4:07-4:23 Tauriel (B Section) BOFA 2-07 The Return Journey 0:18-0:27 Thorin 1:01-1:28 Thorin 1:28-1:37 ??? 1:37-1:52 Bilbo’s Adventure Theme 2:12-2:49 Bilbo's Adventure Theme? 2:54-3:06 Gandalf The Grey 3:18-3:31 History of The Ring / Thorin combo? 3:32-4:02 House of Durin (History of the Ring combo version) 4:04-4:18 Bilbo’s Baggins/Took Theme BOFA 2-08 There And Back Again 0:00-0:19 The Hobbit Outline 0:03-0:19 The Shire 0:37-1:05 Bilbo’s Sneaky Theme 1:58-2:12 Descending Theme from DOS 2:22-2:51 The Shire (Modified) 2:58-3:12 The History Of The Ring (almost) 3:12-3:40 The History Of The Ring 3:42-4:20 The Shire BOFA 2-09 The Last Goodbye BOFA 2-10 Ironfoot 0:00-2:04 Dain 2:22-2:30 Girion 3:01-4:01 Bard The Leader 4:33-5:02 Lake-town 5:06-5:33 Lake-town/Bard 5:33-6:11 Lake-town BOFA 2-11 Dragon Sickness 0:22-0:29 The Arkenstone 0:29-0:34 Thorin 0:34-0:39 Smaug A 0:39-0:45 Thorin 0:45-0:51 The Arkenstone 0:57-1:11 Smaug A 1:13-1:24 The Arkenstone 1:41-1:52 Thorin 2:03-2:14 Bard The Leader 2:31-2:50 Gundabad March 2:42-2:50 Gundabad Rhythm 3:01-3:07 Descending Theme from DOS 3:23-3:33 Lake-town 3:26-3:34 Descending Theme from DOS 3:33-3:40 Lake-town/Bard Fire away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Five!:Bard the Grim.Bard the LeaderBard and FamilyGirion/BardLaketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example?Timestamp?Well, I don't have one right now, I mean the theme that opens Protector of the Common Folk, the descending violin line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Jay, (IMHO) your splitting up of Laketown/Bard and Laketown in The Darkest Hour (and other places) is incorrect, this is how it should be (IMO)BOFA 2-01 The Darkest Hour4:11-5:07 Lake-town/Bard5:07-5:34 Lake-townFive!:Bard the Grim.Bard the LeaderBard and FamilyGirion/BardLaketown/Bard (Yes there is a difference)Which one is the contrapuntal descending line, as heard in Fire And Water for example?Timestamp?Well, I don't have one right now, I mean the theme that opens Protector of the Common Folk, the descending violin line.I think you are talking about Bard the Grim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 What would Bard the Grim represent then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Moved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think you are talking about Bard the Grim. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb408 3 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 1:33-1:48 Descending Thirds in "Sons of Durin"? I don't think so...Also, just in case it hasn't been mentioned before, I've been listening to DOS tonight and thought I'd point out that Tauriel's theme at 1:10-1:26 in "The Forest River" is not just the A section; the B section serves as counterpoint beneath. Same goes for 2:35-2:58 in "Beyond the Forest"; the A and B themes coincide. You all have probably no doubt noticed, but Jay's original post doesn't seem to make that distinction so I thought I'd throw it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The motif opening both Ravenhill and Courage and Wisdom sounds like a variant of Evil Times. It specifically reminds me of the ghostly fragments of it heard in Sons of the Steward in TTT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Sons Of Durin:- "00:55 - 01:12": I don't think there's a theme here, but hey, if that can help you identify it: this bit plays when Bard is seen encouraging the Laketowners to keep on fighting.This sounds like one of the unreleased pieces from 'Forest River' to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yeah that one, it just sounds slower in Sons of Durin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 It's not even that they're identical. But we've been trained for years now how Shore likes to bend and change musical lines. So it's no wonder we're looking for connections everywhere.It's his fault!KarolIt's his fault we saw a connection between Bilbo's theme and Bard Family theme, that was an intentional connection...?The Girion/Bard theme was merely labelled as such for DOS. After BOTFA, there's nothing wrong with seeing the theme slightly differently.Bard/Girion theme is used 2 times in DoS, first to represent in the flashback the failed attempt of Girion to slay the dragon with a Black Arrow and then again when Bard brings forth the Black Arrow to protect his family. I think it is representation of noble courage of Girion's line that relates strongly to defeating the dragon and indeed the Black Arrow. It is used in BotFA almost exlusively to illustrate Bain's efforts to bring the arrow to his father and Bard trying to slay Smaug.Bard the Leader revolves around Bard's growing prominence as the leader of men after the catastrophe, showing again the inherent nobility of his family.Bard and the People of Laketown seems to be a heroic variation on the old shanty which is energized into active resistance by Bard when he leads the men of the Lake against the orcs but mostly it to my ears and with its connections in the film seems to be purely honour the people of Lake-Town, especially when Shore transforms it into that choral lament. I guess you could view it like Gondor (in Ascension) with Bard's musical signature attaching itself to the end of the Lake-Town theme to form a new heroic version of the previous material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb408 3 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 3:51-4:09 of "The Darkest Hour" is The Dwarf Lords, I'm pretty sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 It does cover part of that scene I think(though also Azog giving out orders) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 It sounds very much like the retreat music from TTT in style, when the Rohan forces retreat to Hornburg as the Uruk-hai break through (latter half of the Entmoot Decides on the CR). I don't know what thematic association that few seconds has though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,220 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I agree with William. No idea why it would be used for Laketowners vs. Orcs (if that was deliberate on Shore's part), but that it's the same theme seems pretty clear cut; the melodic similarity is very precise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I agree with William. No idea why it would be used for Laketowners vs. Orcs (if that was deliberate on Shore's part), but that it's the same theme seems pretty clear cut; the melodic similarity is very precise.So it was a kind of an homage to his unused concept of Dwarf Lords theme to use it as a sort of elegy in the middle of the battle and nowhere else? An interesting interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 no what i am saying is you dont see any laketowners fighting orcs when that music is usednow why Dains scene later shifts to some laketown theme Idontknow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,220 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Its much slower though. Indeed, and another difference from the figure's Dwarf Lords incarnation is the harmonisation. Which reminds me: It sounds very much like the retreat music from TTT in style... Nice observation. It's the general mood and pace which make one reminiscent of the other, but for the most concrete connection we can look to the chords which (modulo uniform transposition) go:Hornburg Retreat: A minor, E minor ; A minor, E minorDarkest Hour Thingy: A minor, E minor ; A minor, G majorThe same except that the latter has its fourth chord relatively majorised. The Dwarf Lords counterpart is:Dwarf Lords: A major, G major; A major, G majormaking the Darkest Hour chord sequence a sort of fusion of these two. (Let me emphasise that I'm not suggesting this was part of Howard Shore's thought process during composition!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yeah, that one also follows the broken minor chord structure of W&R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yea, which is why it's lead to so much confusion for all of us to figure out which passages are Weakness & Redemption, which are Bilbo's Burglar Theme, which are Thorin's Pride, and which are Thranduil's Theme... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yeap.I wonder what will the Thorin related rising and falling motif from AUJ we named Thorin's Pride be called by Doug and will he explain why it disappears after the first film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 It's really depressing how many ideas from AUJ disappeared afterwards.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 It's all very confusing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 But Bilbo's burglar theme and 'Thranduil's theme" sound exactly the same.Not just similar.They dont sound exactly the same to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Rhythm is a bit different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 well I am still not sure what the GatheringofClouds segment is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 after listening to the mirkwood Thranduil themes I am not even sure those 2 statements are the same anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 The bits I have listed as "Thorin's Pride" in "Flies and Spiders" and "The Woodland Realm" are what I originally thought of an "Thranduil's Theme", and in all those appearances it plays in scenes relating to Thranduil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Yes. I believe you turned out to be right.I believe the ideas of "Thorin's Pride" and "Bilbo's Burglar Theme" were abandoned with AUJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 It seems to be that way, right? And then he just took the melody of those themes and repurposed it for Thranduil, kind of like you all think he took the melody of Bilbo's theme and repurposed it for Bard's family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 The Return Journey:- 00:26 - 00:40 features the melody heard in The Hunters (for Thorin's "end in fire" speech), as was pointed out by gkgyver (and later Fal). Erebor In Ascension (as Fal suggested) sounds like a good name for that theme.Its the same melody as in 1:33-1:38 of The Courage of Hobbits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted January 2, 2015 Author Share Posted January 2, 2015 OK!I'm now going to go through each track of BOFA and post an updated version, taking into account the various updates you guys posted since I posted my lists. In some cases I will agree, in some cases I will not, and we can discuss track by track!NOTE: I know there are some other updates on page 24 before I posted my BOFA list; I'll get to those eventually too!- Well, if we want to be precise, the first Dragon-Sickness statement starts at 00:14, and continues after 01:04 (the tempo of it speeds up, though), up until 01:19 to be precise.- Then it shows up again at 01:29-01:45- The third Dragon-Sickness statement actually plays up until 02:24 (you can hear it faintly in the background).- Then at 04:18-04:25.- Smaug A/B theme shows up at 00:39-00:44.- Smaug's A theme shows up at 01:34-01:40.Agreed with all of these! - except the last one, that's his B theme - The theme reappears at 02:40 up until 03:07.I hear it from 2:40-2:51, then it seems to disappear before returning from 3:03-3:07. Maybe it's the mix? Are you listening to the remixed version you made?- Then again at 03:55-04:05.Odd, I don't hear it at all from 3:55-4:05, though I do hear it from 4:05-4:13.....- Don't know if you want to brand the bit at 04:28 as a theme or not, since it reprises the material for the golden statue in DOS.Yea... I dunno, what do you guys think? Is this a theme? What does it represent? I'm talking about 4:28-4:45, which is like 3:21-3:40 of My Armor Is Iron from DOS.- You made a typo: "5:52-5:40 Dragon Sickness", when obviously you meant 05:22 instead of 05:52.Fixed!1:18-1:24 a phrase from unreleased bit of My Armor Is IronDisagree, that's just a buildup to Politicians of Lake-town.1:51-1:55 Smaug AOK, sure.4:28-4:45 Smaug DefiedInteresting name.....Which leaves us with a final entry like this:BOFA 1-01 Fire And Water0:14-1:19 Dragon Sickness0:24-0:33 Smaug A/B0:39-0:44 Smaug A/B0:54-1:02 Smaug A/B1:04-1:19 Smaug B1:23-1:29 The Politicians of Lake-town1:29-1:45 Dragon Sickness1:34-1:40 Smaug B1:47-1:51 Ascending phrase from My Armor Is Iron unreleased section - what does this represent?1:51-1:55 Smaug A1:53-2:00 Girion2:00-2:24 Dragon Sickness2:00-2:24 Smaug B2:24-2:29 Smaug A2:40-3:07 Dragon Sickness2:40-2:51 Smaug B2:51-3:07 Smaug A3:07-3:23 Girion3:23-3:35 Bard3:35-3:50 Bard’s Family3:50-3:55 Smaug B4:05-4:13 Dragon Sickness4:05-4:13 Smaug A4:05-4:13 Smaug B4:19-4:26 Dragon Sickness4:28-4:45 Golden Statue music from My Armor Is Iron 3:21-3:40 - what does this represent?4:45-5:00 Smaug B5:00-5:05 Smaug A5:05-5:22 Smaug B5:22-5:40 Dragon Sickness5:22-5:40 Smaug A5:40-5:58 EreborThoughts and comments!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 1:18-1:24 a phrase from unreleased bit of My Armor Is IronDisagree, that's just a buildup to Politicians of Lake-town.Uh, compare to 1:39 of this video: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnome in Plaid 219 Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I vaguely remember there being a statement of The Nine theme in the "Guardians of the Three" scene in the film. Was that tracked in? Also, can we just talk about how gorgeous that theme is? wdb408 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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