Faleel 5,347 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 That sentence was Greek to me.?Its the Erebor theme, with the Rivendell Arpeggios (For example the very beginning of "The Sword that Was Broken") played subtly underneath... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I just saw that he listed it as an own theme. It is not a separate theme by my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Its just a lift from AUJ, not that there is anything wrong with that of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Moonlight Reveal theme? You mean Erebor? That moon runes cue is an Erebor variation over the Rivendell arpeggio. But what about the #4? (C-B-C-B etc. in the 1st violins and flute) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 Huh? The Erebor theme plays in the trumpets and choir while the Rivendell arpeggio plays underneath on the low strings. What's not to understand?I don't know what an arpeggio is. Anyway, the Moonlight Reveal theme doesn't sound like Erebor to me... Different amount of notes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Did you even read Doug's book?- Faleel: sounding superior again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I don't know what am arpeggio is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Moonlight Reveal theme? You mean Erebor? That moon runes cue is an Erebor variation over the Rivendell arpeggio.But what about the #4? (C-B-C-B etc. in the 1st violins and flute)What about it? Not just an ominous figure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I don't know what am arpeggio is. Not everyone here is musically educated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 It doesnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Dont act like Lee and try become a bad copy of me, Alvar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Good! Strive to become as good as YOU can be! Show us the bestest Alvar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickenstein 0 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 There's a big statement of Smaug's Theme at 2:20-2:27 of "Flies and Spiders" that I haven't seen any discussion of. Is anyone else hearing it? I can't recall there being a thematic significance for it during that part of the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 yeah it wouldnt make sense for the audience to be thinking of Smaug when they see someone being wrapped up in spiderwebs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 There's a big statement of Smaug's Theme at 2:20-2:27 of "Flies and Spiders" that I haven't seen any discussion of. Is anyone else hearing it? I can't recall there being a thematic significance for it during that part of the movie.That's not Smaug's Theme, that's the Mirkwood theme.Don't forget the main posts of this thread list all the theme appearances! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickenstein 0 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 There's a big statement of Smaug's Theme at 2:20-2:27 of "Flies and Spiders" that I haven't seen any discussion of. Is anyone else hearing it? I can't recall there being a thematic significance for it during that part of the movie.That's not Smaug's Theme, that's the Mirkwood theme.Don't forget the main posts of this thread list all the theme appearances!Jason, I don't see the "Mirkwood Theme" or any other as being listed at that moment in your (impressive) analysis, which is why I posted. I still think it sounds more like Smaug's Theme. If you're right the question becomes, why are they so similiar?MirkwoodDOS 1-04 1:02-1:18DOS 1-05 0:24-0:36DOS 1-05 1:12-1:37DOS 1-05 1:46-2:23DOS 1-05 2:45-3:01DOS 1-05 3:10-3:16DOS 1-05 3:31-3:38DOS 1-05 3:58-4:13DOS 1-06 0:10-0:26 (First 2 notes repeated)DOS 1-07 0:11-0:15DOS 1-07 2:07-2:20DOS 1-06 Flies and Spiders0:10-0:26 Mirkwood (First 2 notes repeated)1:28-1:32 Erebor1:53-1:59 Mirkwood Spiders Theme6:43-7:08 The History of the Ring7:32-7:41 The Woodland Realm (Legolas Variation)7:51-8:05 Tauriel’s Theme8:37-8:55 Thorin's Pride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 Ooooh, dunno how I missed that one! I'll add it to the main post, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 If there is, then its too subtle if one needs to be able to read notes to detect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 OK, how do musically educated people make the difference between the Mirkwood theme and Smaug's theme? Because, personally, the only reason I knew the Mirkwood theme was in fact for Mirkwood is because it appears during scenes taking place in Mirkwood. If it wasn't for that, I would have called it Smaug's theme.So, is there a subtle difference between the two?Yes. More musically educated could probably put up some kind of quick notation to show you the differences and common elements of these two motifs.Oh and I can tell the difference without any notes or notations. To my ears both sound distinctive but I guess I am just weird that way, spotting this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 The Ears of Truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Oh and I can tell the difference without any notes or notations. To my ears both sound distinctive but I guess I am just weird that way, spotting this stuff.That's because you're a Shore apologist and don't want to admit he was just being lazy!You are just your own deafness apologist and can't admit that you are lazy! Listen harder goddammit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 The first two notes are the same, but then each theme goes off in a different direction. And usually they are orchestrated differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBoal 7,538 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 The first two notes are the same, but then each theme goes off in a different direction.Go off in a different direction? They both have four notes after the first two notes!And the fact that they are orchestrated differently is not enough. Variations on a theme generally are orchestrated differently.I just want to know this: if you guys had heard the Mirkwood theme statements out of context, would you have said that these were variations on Smaug's theme, or would you have said that it's a different theme entirely? And I want an honest answer!Well I heard the music out of context the first time I listened to it and picked up the Mirkwood motif without a problem and never mistook it for Smaug's theme. Honestly, scout's honour and cross my heart and hope to die BB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedigoScan 324 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 those four notes seem pretty distinct to meI wouldnt mistake it for Smaugs theme at the very least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 I'll never know about out of context, as the first time I heard it I knew I was listening to a track called Mirkwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Same here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I'll never know about out of context, as the first time I heard it I knew I was listening to a track called Mirkwood.Same here.I think BB is talking about out of film context. Naturally the track title gave a hint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Be silentt! Keep your forked tongue between your teeth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Oooh testy are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Yes, i have testicles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 But that is not what we are here to talk about! Can you hear the Mirkwood theme or not?!!! HOW MANY NOTES DO YOU HEAR?!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share Posted December 21, 2013 Anyways, Smaug's Theme goes [up down, up down down down] and the Mirkwood Theme goes [up down, up same same same] . At least I think. They are different notes from each other regardless.Bard's Family Theme is closer to Bilbo's Theme than Mirkwood is to Smaug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 The Mirkwood theme sounds like a reduction of the full Smaug theme. Like Goldsmith often would write a shorthand version of his main theme.I don't believe in a bard family theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnald 365 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I don't believe in a bard family theme.As far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Indeed. Unless THAT theme is used for Bard's kids in the third movie several times. I don't believe it. Sorry Doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafeUnderHill 205 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Don't put words in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,347 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Is it just me ore does that unreleased cue in DOS when Bilbo is falling into the Forest River, sound like the music in Brass Buttons right before the Ring theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkgyver 1,645 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Indeed. Unless THAT theme is used for Bard's kids in the third movie several times. I don't believe it. Sorry Doug.Don't put words in my mouth.Doug said Shore did a sketch for a longer family theme, which remained largely unused because of no space to put it in, and that aforementioned score snippet is a short relict of that sketch.And if you say you don't believe that unless it's extensively used in TABA, you're clearly implying Doug is telling a lie.Nobody's putting words in your mouth, they are your words.Anyways, Smaug's Theme goes [up down, up down down down] and the Mirkwood Theme goes [up down, up same same same] . At least I think. They are different notes from each other regardless.Bard's Family Theme is closer to Bilbo's Theme than Mirkwood is to Smaug.Now THAT post is Greek to me Are we talking about the circling Mirkwood theme in "Mirkwood"? I don't think it has the same intervals as Smaug's theme. And Smaug has that constantly shifting minor/major chord, which Mirkwood doesn't.And Mr. Cosman, the moon runes music does have the Erebor theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Mirkwood and Smaug have two distinct thematic patterns. And while orchestration is a key difference, it's also important to understand that with the Mirkwood music, it's not just the little motif in play. Shore makes Mirkwood all about texture and atmosphere (the hazy descending chord progressions, the unfocused aleatoricism making it unclear where the theme begins and ends) all to reflect the hallucinogenic effects of the forest itself. On the other hand, Smaugs material follows a much more character dynamic.Having said, I will agree that the structural similarities are present enough for me to regard the Mirkwood motif as one of the weaker and more disappointing leitmotifs of Middle-Earth. But again, the motif was never the centrepiece of the forest's music anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,355 Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share Posted December 22, 2013 I agree with gkgyver that Stefan is essentially calling Doug a liar, and it isn't appreciated. It's a fact that Shore wrote a theme for Bard's Family. It's a fact that this theme appears once on the OST, and that it sounds very similar to Bilbo's Theme in that spot. That's literally the end of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Doug told you the opening of My Dear Frodo wasnt based on House Of Durin initially, you didnt call him a liar.Why do you assume I call him that?At this point i'm not convinced. Is it required that I am? Mr. Adams is a GREAT resource for info, and a swell guy for sharing as much as he does. But that doesnt mean I'm not allowed my own opinion and interpretation. It is music afterall, not maths.Also, isnt Doug a big boy? Does he need people to stand up for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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