The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[Chen G. 3,942]

That's just the nature of the creative process on these things. The first sketches of The Ring used The Ride of the Valkyries...for the Norn scene!

[Jay 37,268]

I'm more curious if @Jim Ware can identify any of those unidentified bits of the prologue  

[Monoverantus 363]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

I'm more curious if @Jim Ware can identify any of those unidentified bits of the prologue  

Aren't the last pieces you're looking for just held notes or chords? Is there a reason to expect literally 100% of the track to be taken from somewhere else, when Jim has already confirmed that it's re-recorded?

[Jay 37,268]

There's also the new horn melody added to that one repurposed Parth Galen passage, and the HOTR theme on English Horn

[TolkienSS 405]

15 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Well sure, it’s the “Tarnhelm” progression. But just because it’s a basic building block or a recurring Shore fingerprint doesn’t mean it’s not leitmotivic. I guess what I’m getting at is that to call it “Mount Doom” (or any other designation) is very much an understatement because we hear it in the score in hundreds and hundreds of ways that have nothing to do with Orodruin.

 

Yes, it's probably thematic in its application, at least in connecting Elrond's retelling of Isildur's failure, the climactic moment in Mount Doom, and Gollum's theme, but with other appearances I'm unsure because that gesture is such a broad stroke, hence its appearance in other places.

I mean, does IV-I become thematic because it accompanies the Grey Havens theme?

7 hours ago, Jay said:

There's also the new horn line in that one section, and the HOTR theme on clarinet

 

The horn line could have easily been added for more required weight in that scene when Shore assembled the piece for recording.

The bit at 6:40 is an English Horn, not a clarinet (though maybe doubled by clarinet).

[Jay 37,268]

Thanks, I figured I had the wrong instrument!

[Faleel 5,326]

Yeah, clarinet usually has more of a "dooo" sound, while English horn a throaty "nawww"

[Chen G. 3,942]

9 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

Yes, it's probably thematic in its application, at least in connecting Elrond's retelling of Isildur's failure, the climactic moment in Mount Doom, and Gollum's theme, but with other appearances I'm unsure because that gesture is such a broad stroke, hence its appearance in other places.

I mean, does IV-I become thematic because it accompanies the Grey Havens theme?

 

I mean, if that chord progression is thematic, it is thematic: it can't be thematic here because we can easily put the association into words, and not thematic somewhere else because we can't. You could say that its associated specifically with Mount Doom only when those chords are presented a certain way - like when we flash-back to Elrond and Isildur in the Cracks of Doom and then later when we hear the same music when Frodo and Sam are about the enter. But the fact of the matter is the chord progression, in itself, is associated with both of those moments and we do hear it a ton in other places.

 

There are lots of motives in The Lord of the Rings that, while we can feel the commonality between all the places in which they appear, nonetheless have associations that are difficult to put into words: the motive that Doug Adams calls "Gandalf's Farewells" is a good example: that name really doesn't help us understand most of the occurances of that theme, but that's also true of the so-called "Minas Tirith" motive; which is to say nothing of the supposed "weakness and redemption" arpeggio. The Ring has that, too. There's a theme that's all over The Ring that's just called by the rather nebulous name "Fate" because its hard to pin it down to anything more specific.

 

And yeah, that's the idea of leitmotives: that every measure and every aspect of the score is coloured by associations: key centers have associations, chord progressions have associations, orchestral timbres (even within the various ranges of a single instrument) have associations.

[Monoverantus 363]

This sort of discussion is one of many reasons I've considered making a whole video just about the hazy lines between intention and interpretation, which in this case would be the difference between what Shore intended, what Doug communicates, and what we believe. As far as I know, Shore himself has never talked about the Mount Doom theme (which can be said of many themes). Doug seems to have named it, and made the specific connection that the same chords appear in The Pity of Gollum. Then there's me, who's interpreted this as to mean the Mount Doom theme can be boiled down to just the chord progression (i.e. the Mount Doom chords), which to my mind brings thematic meaning to the other themes it appears in, like The Journey There, The Nameless Fear and Rivendell (in major). Even then, I'm hesitant to claim the chords have clear thematic meaning on their own, like the first two bars of The Passing of Théoden.

Did Howard intend this? Is Doug right? Am I right? I don't know.

[Chen G. 3,942]

The fact of the matter is the music is what it is.

 

Howard set-out to create a score in a certain style - the style of The Ring - and out of that working premise, the music of The Lord of the Rings unfolds. The technique is intentional: the results of its working-out may or may not be intentional, but it doesn't matter. The whole idea is that we hear the music, and it conjures up associations for us with things we've seen before. If we hear a piece of music and it fires-up certain associations for us, that's what matters. To be told otherwise is the equivalent of being told: "Don't think of blue!"

 

The use Ring examples again, there's a figure in The Ring which seems to depict shimmering sunlight. When Siegfried first speaks to the forest bird, we hear what's ostensibly the same figure, just much faster. Its such a basic idea - two notes alternating - that it does beg the question: did Wagner think of that? Honestly, who knows! But the fact of the matter is that it is there.

 

An even more extraordinary example: the very same chord progression we talk about is used in the Ring to symbolize the Tarnhelm and eventually with the magic potion. As we were just saying, its a very simple building block, and very much a Wagnerian fingerprint, running from Lohengrin through to Parsifal. Still, when later on Waltraute tells about the gods sitting waiting for the end, we hear the same chords underneath Valhalla's music, even though there's no possible connection to the Helm, the potion or even to magic in general, particularly. Before that, too, when Brunnhilde first wakes, we hear what's basically the Tarnhelm in slow-motion. Is it intentional? Who knows! But it is there.

[Monoverantus 363]

I think we largely agree on this, a kind of "death of the author"-like approach where it's fine to let the audience interpret things if they exist to be interpreted, but Doug doesn't. During the One Ring streams I asked him, and he was very clear that he only cares about representing Howard's intentions as faithfully as possible. Of course, I appreciate this approach too. I'm OK with discussing and subscribing to all sorts of theories, but don't want to spread misinformation about what is or isn't "canon" information.

That said, neither Howard nor Doug are infallible either. Howard has admitted to forgetting so many things that he's said (tbf probably jokingly) that Doug is a better expert on the scores than himself, and Doug has conveyed incomplete, incorrect or contradictory info at times too.

[Chen G. 3,942]

I don't think of it as "death of the author" so much as that the reality of the piece is and must be the reality of the individual listener's experience; and that's especially true of something like leitmotives where the whole idea is you hear something, and it triggers certain memories in you: what it triggers is what it triggers.

 

And as you all know I take issues with the naming conventions for themes. I chuckled the other day reading another thread when Jay talked about the chorus of "Into the West" being a "theme representing the Grey Havens." Granted, that's the name in Doug's book and I wouldn't be too surprised if that was the nickname in Howard's sketches for that matter. But it still kinda misses the point of the theme, both insofar as it only "represents" the Havens as a passageway to Valinor, and also the fact that its big climax, when Sam hoists Frodo on his shoulders, is not easy to explain in very simple words either as a "Grey Havens" theme or as a "Valinor" theme or what have you. Same with "Gandalf's Farewells."

 

Its not that these are some abstract musical devices: in watching the series, there is a clear commonality between all the places in which they appear and it always feels right. But its just not a commonality that you can put into very simple words, much less into a kind of designation.

 

This is not a slate against Doug: most literature on The Ring also uses leitmotif names, and saddled with the same kind of limitations that are found in Doug's naming conventions. In some publications, its now normal to see leitmotives catalogued as numbers or have their nicknames placed under quotation marks. I just talk in terms of associations.

[Monoverantus 363]

To be clear, I said that "it's fine to let the audience interpret things if they exist to be interpreted". That's the main rub of this discussion as I see it, since I'm not 100% sure we can state "Every 2 minor chords a flat sixth apart is a reference to the Mt Doom theme" just because "The Pity of Gollum's 2 minor chords a flat sixth apart is a reference to the Mt Doom theme".

[TolkienSS 405]

On 21/01/2023 at 3:07 PM, Monoverantus said:

I think we largely agree on this, a kind of "death of the author"-like approach where it's fine to let the audience interpret things if they exist to be interpreted, but Doug doesn't. During the One Ring streams I asked him, and he was very clear that he only cares about representing Howard's intentions as faithfully as possible. Of course, I appreciate this approach too. I'm OK with discussing and subscribing to all sorts of theories, but don't want to spread misinformation about what is or isn't "canon" information.

That said, neither Howard nor Doug are infallible either. Howard has admitted to forgetting so many things that he's said (tbf probably jokingly) that Doug is a better expert on the scores than himself, and Doug has conveyed incomplete, incorrect or contradictory info at times too.

 

What does "Howard is not infallible" mean? He either intended something or he didn't.

If he intended something the listener doesn't notice, it's still intentional. Likewise, if the listener assumes things that aren't intended, that doesn't make it part of the author's intention.

I'm not bold enough to claim what Doug has said or written was "incomplete" or "incorrect", since none of us have Howard Shore's number to have a chat about it.

[Faleel 5,326]

The EE portions of Journey in the Dark weren't added by the LPO.

[Chen G. 3,942]

7 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

If he intended something the listener doesn't notice, it's still intentional. Likewise, if the listener assumes things that aren't intended, that doesn't make it part of the author's intention.

I'm not bold enough to claim what Doug has said or written was "incomplete" or "incorrect", since none of us have Howard Shore's number to have a chat about it.

 

Leitmotives are like a musical Rorschach test: once you're exposed to enough music in enough dramatic situations, its a question of "When you hear X what does it conjur up for you?"

 

Authorial intent is all fine and well, but if a piece of music conjures up certain associations for you, it just does. For anyone - even Howard Shore himself - to then tell you its not is the equivalent of someone telling you: "Don't think of blue!"

 

The music is what it is.

 

That's not intended to sound flippant towards Howard or Doug or anybody. Its just a basic philosophy of art appreciation: that the reality of the work of art is and can only be the reality of the individiual listener.

[Monoverantus 363]

13 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

What does "Howard is not infallible" mean? He either intended something or he didn't.

If he intended something the listener doesn't notice, it's still intentional. Likewise, if the listener assumes things that aren't intended, that doesn't make it part of the author's intention.

I'm not bold enough to claim what Doug has said or written was "incomplete" or "incorrect", since none of us have Howard Shore's number to have a chat about it.

I said what I meant. If Howard himself defects a certain authority to Doug, he is aware that he isn't a 100% reliable source. That's not an uncommon thing for creators of art of such magnificent scope (compare with GRR Martin admitting that he sometimes needs his assistants to remind him if he's killed off a certain minor character or not). "People are not infallible" should not be a controversial statement.

[Chen G. 3,942]

To keep this argument going any longer would probably give the impression that myself and Monoverantus are perhaps a little more irreverent to Doug and Howard than we are, and so I'll just say that - and this is not intended as a piece of flattery - Doug's work on the book, annotated scores and liners is unprecedented: no other work of this scale had been lavished with this kind of musicological analysis aided by the composer: when Wolzogen published his guide to The Ring he did so without Wagner's input, the latter having called him in a private letter a "degenerate aristocratic baboon."

 

But to speak to this subject, Doug's book is the definitive proof that we must treat the "Tarnhelm" progression is leitmotivic even outside those few places where it appears with a direct connection to Mount Doom: in describing "The Council of Elrond Assembles", before any connection has been made to everyone's favourite volcano, Doug alludes to the presence of "the stretched minor harmonies of Mount Doom."

 

So I think we are justified in reading leitmotivic significance into the other appearances of that progression. Its associations are clearly broader than just as a signifier for the mountain: again, its the sort of thing that's not very easy to put into words, but to me it communicates the foreboding that lay ahead on the quest and on the War of the Ring, the terminus of which is of course the final confrontation in sight of (and in the bowels of) the said mountain.

[Monoverantus 363]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But to speak to this subject, Doug's book is the definitive proof that we must treat the "Tarnhelm" progression is leitmotivic even outside those few places where it appears with a direct connection to Mount Doom: in describing "The Council of Elrond Assembles", before any connection has been made to everyone's favourite volcano, Doug alludes to the presence of "the stretched minor harmonies of Mount Doom."

Good point, hadn't thought of that.

[Faleel 5,326]

Are the last notes of the House of Durin theme related to The Dwarf Lords? @Chen G.@Monoverantus ?

[Monoverantus 363]

1 hour ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Are the last notes of the House of Durin theme related to The Dwarf Lords? @Chen G.@Monoverantus ?

No idea. "Dwarf Lords" wasn't used in the score, right?

[Faleel 5,326]

4 minutes ago, Monoverantus said:

No idea. "Dwarf Lords" wasn't used in the score, right?

Yes, during Dwalin telling Gandalf where Thorin is.

[Chen G. 3,942]

1 hour ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Yes, during Dwalin telling Gandalf where Thorin is.

 

And obliquely in the Hidden Door sequence and in “The darkest hour” during the battle. 
 

But it’s a very interesting question: what makes these themes Dwarven? They certainly don’t have the same intervallic character as the Moria writing, for example.

[TolkienSS 405]

What makes "Ironfoot" Dwarven? 

I'd say we shouldn't put so much weight on pieces that are probably little more than recorded sketches.

 

Though The Dwarf Lords theme starts on the dwarven style of oscillating between two chords one step apart, this time two major chords (A major and G major), instead of for example Thorin's theme or House of Durin (both A minor and G major).

 

I see Dwarf Lords as a precursor to House Of Durin because they both have basically the same progression:

 

Dwarf Lords: A - G - A - G - D

House of Durin: Am - G - Am - G - F - Dm - Am 

Thorin: Am - G - Am - G - F

 

[Chen G. 3,942]

Okay, so we've established there's a characteristic Dwarven key and chord progression. But are we not also saying there's something in the melodic line that's common to all these themes? I believe in the score commentary, Doug suggested the descending pattern that tends to cap the motif associated with Erebor is the common shape that unites all the melodic writing for the Dwarves.

[TolkienSS 405]

I have a hard time calling four descending notes without any specific chord progression a theme.

The shape capping off the Erebor theme is more closely related to Tauriel and Kili's theme than any other dwarf theme.

[Faleel 5,326]

1 hour ago, TolkienSS said:

 

The shape capping off the Erebor theme is more closely related to Tauriel and Kili's theme than any other dwarf theme.

Kili is a Dwarf....

[TolkienSS 405]

1 hour ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

Kili is a Dwarf....

 

Yeah but it's a theme for the both of them.

[Chen G. 3,942]

The whole point of the score is to NOT keep these musical worlds separate, but to merge them.

 

4 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

I have a hard time calling four descending notes without any specific chord progression a theme.

The shape capping off the Erebor theme is more closely related to Tauriel and Kili's theme than any other dwarf theme.

 

It sounds pretty close to my ears to one of the motives associated with the Arkenstone.

[TolkienSS 405]

I can't remember more than one theme for the Arkenstone.

[Chen G. 3,942]

They often (but not always) appear together, but in the final analysis Doug separated them and I think its right: one belongs to the more intervalic style of Dwarven music and speaks to the more mysterious side of the Arkenstone (Doug calls it "Dark Lands") and also gains some association with the map and the key, while the other is more melodic and lacks those associations.

[TolkienSS 405]

The first thing is a scalar buildup to the theme. How is that a theme?

[Faleel 5,326]

2 hours ago, TolkienSS said:

The first thing is a scalar buildup to the theme. How is that a theme?

The theme ends at 3:20 with the stately string line in B minor not 3:12. And that is the first Arkenstone theme

 

The other Arkenstone theme only appears in Film 2 and 3.

 

2:35

[Chen G. 3,942]

 That...sounds just like the string line from film one....

 

Pretty sure the other theme is the choral cluster.

 

Here's Howard's sketch: you can see the cluster in the outer staves - starting with a Moria-like open fifth - and the melody in the middle.

 

 

[Faleel 5,326]

Tan sanki zasairadihu / Ata Raklaban

 

(You will know it when you hear it / it is the Arkenstone theme. )

 

AUJ:

 

 

DOS:

 

[Chen G. 3,942]

4 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

 

 

Right, and in the final analysis Doug has saw fit to separate the "glowing choral cluster" from the "stately string line in B minor" as two separate motifs associated with the Arkenstone. In one of the score commentaries he says they're "used separately and have distinct purposes." I think its right, in part because the one motif derives from the open fifths, while the other is a melodic idea, so they come from completely different worlds of "Dwarven" music.

 

A little bit like how in the liners, there's "The Heroics of Aragorn" (god, these theme names are silly! ) whereas in the book there's a "Strider motif" (gah!) and an Aragorn one, separately.