The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[KK 3,307]

Cool!

[Faleel 5,340]

BTW Smaugs "background/inverted" theme makes me think of this theme from Star Trek TOS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X07UpKqVRQ


(I know its not exactly the same!)

[Incanus 5,713]

Jason, the 'motif' you refer to is basically the third of the principle triad, alternating back and forth between the major and minor iterations of the chord's sonority. Its essentially the key note of what Incanus was the talking about. Sometimes it goes from major to minor (the note takes a step down) sometimes it goes from minor to major (note takes a step up). And its not necessarily always the F triad we hear. The key changes.

Essentially this is supporting music for the Smaug material and his theme. But perhaps it can have a specific correlation to the 'treasure madness' as you say.

In general I like how the Smaug's theme and its accompanying ideas basically take over the whole sonic landscape whenever he appears. Even though we might not hear either of the main ideas (or the main theme and the inverted variant) we always have the heaving breathing like alternating chords progression and now the nervous string motif providing him with malevolent presence.

[KK 3,307]

Indeed. This is not unlike how the many Mordor accompaniment devices build a unique sonic soundscape for that land.

[Jay 37,322]

So, no-one ever replied to this:

Back to Thorin's Pride, I guess we all agree it appears at:

AUJ 1-01 My Dear Frodo 6:29-7:00

AUJ 1-01 My Dear Frodo 7:22-7:47

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 0:44-0:56

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 1:50-2:03

AUJ 1-13 A Troll-hoard 2:14-2:19

DOS 1-06 Flies and Spiders 8:37-8:56

DOS 1-07 The Woodland Realm 0:00-0:11

DOS 1-07 The Woodland Realm 2:21-2:43

Making these three really be Bilbo's Burglar Theme, right?

AUJ 1-12 Roast Mutton 4:08-4:22

AUJ 2-08 Riddles In the Dark 3:48-4:00

AUJ 2-09 Brass Buttons 4:40-4:58

Or this:

Also, I have 2:07-2:20 of "The Woodland Realm" marked down as the Mirkwood theme because, well, that's what it sounded like to me. But on my second viewing of the film, I realized that music plays when Thranduil is discussing the White Gems he wants to be paid by Thorin in order to set him free. So, am I wrong, and that's not the Mirkwood theme?

Let's hear some thoughts!

[Faleel 5,340]

Perhaps, that statement of Mirkwood, is because Mirkwood is where The Woodland Realm is, and its a hint at the dangerousness of Thranduil?

[Incanus 5,713]

Yes it definitely sounds like the Mirkwood Theme to me in the Woodland Realm and I would imagine that Faleel's analysis of the scene and purpose of the theme are quite close to the truth.

And yes those timestamps for Thorin's Pride and possible Burglar Theme look just about right to me.

[Jay 37,322]

The whole scene is scored oddly! The cue begins on this dialogue:

"You have found a way in. You seek that which would bestow upon you the right to rule - the king's jewel, the Arkenstone, it is precious to you beyond measure. I understand that."

And that dialogue is NOT underscored with the Arkenstone theme!!

Then, comes this dialogue:

"There are gems in the mountain that I too desire - white gems of pure starlight. I offer you my help."

That's what's underscored with the Mirkwood theme! It's odd!

Things make sense after that, as the following exchange is underscored with what we've been calling Thorin's Pride, which really seems to be more of a "Dwarf vs Elf" theme perhaps:

"I am listening"
"I will let you go if you but return what is mine"

"A favor for a favor?"
"You have my word, one king to another"

"I would not trust Thranduil, the great king to honor his word should the end of all days be upon us!"

[Faleel 5,340]

And that dialogue is NOT underscored with the Arkenstone theme!!

..Your point?

[Jay 37,322]

That Shore scored the scene oddly... as I said.

[Faleel 5,340]

How is that odd?

That he did not go the most obvious route and instead decided to focus on something else?

[alfa 0]

did sb recognize the the theme at 1:14 in Flies and Spiders ? sounds familiar....

[KK 3,307]

The structure is quite similar Bilbo's Adventure. Maybe its a reference?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's Bards Family theme

[Jay 37,322]

I know I owe some replies to some recent posts here, but I just saw this comment on Doug's blog:

I noticed something interesting in Barrels Out of Bond. Between 0:50 and 1:05, a sequence is played that I think is used in the Fellowship of the Ring as well, when the company awaits the goblins in Balin's Tomb. Starting from 3:38 in Balin's Tomb (Complete Recordings), the motive is repeatedly played by a trumpet.

I don't think this motive is used anywhere else, so I thought it was nice to hear it again on the DoS soundtrack. Will this motive get a name, or is it not important enough to be given a name?

http://www.musicoflotr.com/2013/12/the-hobbit-production-video-14.html#comment-1181072675

Anybody else notice this?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Now that you mention it, yes.

[Barnald 365]

I had noticed that, and I doubt there's meant to be a link there. Other parts of the score remind me of bits in the LOTR scores. The part from 4:36-4:52ish of 'Flies and Spiders' (extended), for me at least, is reminiscent of the music played when Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are leaving Fangorn in TTT (4:26-4:35 of 'Gandalf the White'). Also, 1:09-1:25ish of 'Barrels out of Bond' reminds me somewhat of the bit in 'The Breach of the Deeping Wall' heard at 0:35-0:51 (again from TTT). I'm not saying they're exactly the same, just that I was immediately reminded me of those bits in TTT score. The trumpet bit in 'Barrels out of Bond' is a bit more substantial though in terms of a direct match.

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Yep probably just a similar little phrase.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Since when is a recurring musical moment not important enough to be given a name by Doug?

[Incanus 5,713]

I had noticed that, and I doubt there's meant to be a link there. Other parts of the score remind me of bits in the LOTR scores. The part from 4:36-4:52ish of 'Flies and Spiders' (extended), for me at least, is reminiscent of the music played when Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are leaving Fangorn in TTT (4:26-4:35 of 'Gandalf the White').

We discussed this rhythmic material before and I believe it is Hobbit accompaniment material (oh the horror I can't quite remember was it Skip-Beat or Two-Step or End Cap) as Doug's book says for that particular moment in Gandalf the White. In DoS Bilbo is freeing the dwarves from the spiderweb when it plays if I remember correctly so it is quite appropriate.

I know I owe some replies to some recent posts here, but I just saw this comment on Doug's blog:

I noticed something interesting in Barrels Out of Bond. Between 0:50 and 1:05, a sequence is played that I think is used in the Fellowship of the Ring as well, when the company awaits the goblins in Balin's Tomb. Starting from 3:38 in Balin's Tomb (Complete Recordings), the motive is repeatedly played by a trumpet.

I don't think this motive is used anywhere else, so I thought it was nice to hear it again on the DoS soundtrack. Will this motive get a name, or is it not important enough to be given a name?

http://www.musicoflotr.com/2013/12/the-hobbit-production-video-14.html#comment-1181072675

Anybody else notice this?

It is similar to the Drive of the Fellowship motif, which does repeat a couple of times in the LotR scores. Shore does use similar repeating ostinato figure elsewhere so it might just be a coincidence (if there are such things in these scores )

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Oh that was pages and ages ago! Oh I remember those days, we were all so befuddled about the new themes. Ah the youth of this thread!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Ah so you did, I must have missed that.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

BB, I never make that claim on jwfan, nice going!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You made it during your private chat on Facebook, surely!

BB should not refer to that stuff here!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

Blast!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good one Alvar!

[SimJD 3]

The new opening theme for DOS has the same opening notes as the Erebor Theme, although in a different key and with very different harmony. Could it be some sort of hybrid Erebor/History of the Ring/Smaug theme?

Is there some reference to this at approx 1:30 - 1:50 on Inside Information? If not then the moment that underscores Smaug's reference to the One Ring (which I think that section might underscore). It really struck me in the theatre on my second viewing.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

Interesting observation SimJD. I couldn't spot the House of Durin theme in the AUJ opening so I am sure Shore has some intriguing musical connection buried in the DoS titles as well. Your guess is a good one I think.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Straw-clutching suggestion of the day:

When Gandalf first arrives at Bag End in The Fellowship of the Ring he wanders into Bilbo's room and sees the map of Wilderland lying on a table. As he approaches and looks at it, we hear a figure consisting of three phrases - the first two consist of three notes ascending stepwise and then a drop of one fourth; in the last one the three stepwise ascending notes are followed by one a fourth higher. It's as though the music can just about recollect Thorin's theme in its basic shape, without having a completely fresh and accurate memory of all the specifics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IDZUeW-z8Vc#t=89

Now that's foreshadowing for you!

[Jay 37,322]

Yea, I said that over a year ago, that that bit in FOTR is a variant of Thorin's theme - or rather, Shore took that melody and invented Thorin's theme out of it.

However, Mr. John Takis told me there is no connection to Thorin's theme there, so what do I know.

I do know there is a melody that plays I think three times in "Old Friends" in AUJ that is close to that theme.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

Yea, I said that over a year ago

(Actually, so did I. http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=531141;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;)

I'll have to listen to "Old Friends" again to spot the other melody you mention. I don't think I know this John Takis...

[Jay 37,322]

Yea sorry, I don't have the timestamps handy right now

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

No worries - the real problem is that it takes me about half an hour to wrench the CD from its casing.

[gkgyver 1,645]

It's not close, it's the same.

And bears little resemblance to Thorin's theme.

The DoS prologue I think consists of Bard's theme, with the end cap of House of Durin afterwards.

[Jay 37,322]

I believe it plays when Gandalf makes the mark on Bilbo's door

It's a shame the cool choral bit from the FOTR cue isn't in AUJ

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

I believe it plays when Gandalf makes the mark on Bilbo's door

Oh yeah, I remember that now.

[KK 3,307]

That little bit in FotR has no relationship to Thorin's theme. The motif does reappear on strings as a sort of nostalgic callback to LotR. Other than that, I wouldn't assign too much significance to it.

[Glóin the Dark 1,220]

No intentional relationship, I readily agree. It does have a quite concrete relationship, in shape, to the primary phrase of the Thorin theme.

[SimJD 3]

The DoS prologue I think consists of Bard's theme, with the end cap of House of Durin afterwards.

The new opening theme for DOS has the same opening notes as the Erebor Theme, although in a different key and with very different harmony. Could it be some sort of hybrid Erebor/History of the Ring/Smaug theme?

The opening theme for DOS sounds like a variation on Bard's theme to me (I think that was also suggested by gkgyver, if I remember correctly), followed by a brief hint of the Mirkwood (or Smaug's) theme.

Will listen again with Bard's theme in mind.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I believe it plays when Gandalf makes the mark on Bilbo's door

Oh yeah, I remember that now.

It plays when Frodo picks up the orc helmet in Bilbo's study.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,322]

A thrush told me!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

A thrush told you that?