The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

[Faleel 5,347]

Another coincidence, 1:02-1:24 of Out of the Frying Pan reminds me of a mutated version of Erebor/House of Durin.

The MKTAA (Mikko/Kalaisan Theme Award Academy) strikes again!

We shall fight the forces of over-analysis and over-interpretation to our very last breath! While maintaining the virtue and merit of valid new thematic discoveries of course!

So, we have but one question before us... how shall this analysis end!?

Also, do you think these are not valid motifs? (I am genuinely asking)

BOFA 1-11 Battle For The Mountain

2:54-3:04 Cruelty of the Gundabad Orcs?

BOFA 2-03 The Fallen

3:24-3:36 Ravenhill/Thorin's Fate

3:56-4:02 Ravenhill/Thorin's Fate?

4:38-4:47 To The Death (Erebor B Section?)


BOFA 2-04 Ravenhill

3:55-4:02 Cruelty of the Gundabad Orcs? Doors of Durin?


BOFA 2-05 To The Death

1:03-1:10 Cruelty of the Gundabad Orcs?

3:13-3:25 To The Death (Erebor B Section?)

5:16-5:55 Ravenhill/Thorin's Fate

[Jay 37,358]

OK, back to Fire and Water

1:18-1:24 a phrase from unreleased bit of My Armor Is Iron

Disagree, that's just a buildup to Politicians of Lake-town.

Uh, compare to 1:39 of this video:

You still have the worst manners.

Anyways, I still disagree with you. All I hear in 1:18-1:24 of Fire and Water is Shore building up to the Politicians of Lake-town statement. The fact that the notes used are the same as some "stems" recording done on the last day of DOS recording sessions in a total coincidence. There's no connection here.

Anybody else want to weigh in on this?

- Then again at 03:55-04:05.

Odd, I don't hear it at all from 3:55-4:05, though I do hear it from 4:05-4:13.....

Well, it's definitely there! It's right in the forefront. You've got the two notes playing at 03:55-03:58, then at 03:58-04:01 and again at 04:01-04:05

OK, I see what's happening here. You're talking about the "breathing" 2-note back and forth thing.... where-as I'm talking about the warbling string ostinato. Usually the Dragon Sickness passages use both at the same time, but sometimes he only uses one or the other. I was thinking about going through all the Dragon Sickness notations and putting in some "(ostinato only)" or "(breathing only)" (probably would have to come up with better names that that) where applicable, but I dunno if it'd be worth it or too confusing....




OK, before I can move on to Shore of the Long Lake, we have to discuss this Descending Theme first brought up by GKGyver!

Is there any opinion here on the recurring descending motif, heard in Moon Runes, On The Doorstep, The Woodland Realm, Courage and Wisdom, Ironfoot and couple of other spots in the BOFA samples?

It plays when the dwarves are put into their cells in the Woodland Realm, shortly before the "map reading cave" is revealed in Rivendell, right after Thorin's Theme in Courage and Wisdom, and after the variation on Girion's theme in Ironfoot.

I'd like to talk about the possible connection between this theme and the Erebor Theme. A little while ago somebody (SUH?) was mentioning that they really liked the extra 4-note horn endcap to the Erebor theme that was used a lot in AUJ but kinda disappeared after that (appearing only once in DOS). Well this made sense to me, as that extra horn part to me seemed to indicate a "longing" for Erebor, which would go away once they actually arrived there in DOS.

But what I'm wondering is, is that Erebor "endcap" or maybe "B Section" related to this "descending theme"? Let's go through some of the appearances of both:

My Dear Frodo from AUJ introduced us to the Erebor theme:
1:58-2:06 Erebor
2:06-2:09 4-note "endcap" / b section / descending theme
2:09-2:18 Erebor again

This is how Shore uses the Erebor theme in AUJ a lot, such as:


Axe or Sword? from AUJ

0:55-1:02 Erebor
1:02-1:05 4-note "endcap" / b section / descending theme
1:05-1:13 Erebor again

or

A Good Omen from AUJ

4:10-4:23 Erebor
4:23-4:27 4-note "endcap" / b section / descending theme
4:27-4:39 Erebor again


But where it gets interesting is this next track:


Moon Runes from AUJ. This music I'm about to talk about underscores Thorin giving Elrond the map and him checking it out

0:58-1:06 Erebor
1:06-1:08 4-note "endcap" / b section / descending theme
1:08-1:18 Erebor again.
but then!
1:18-2:08 is basically a whole ton of variations on that descending phrase (As Elrond checks out Thorin's map)


Most of DOS doesn't use this endcap to Erebor, but the descending phrase shows up:

The Woodland Realm from DOS. This time it underscores the company being put into their cells

1:11-1:22 is where the descending theme plays. Erebor doesn't play any time around here.

On The Doorstep from DOS

3:48-4:01 is the descending phrase again, playing as Bilbo is alone at the secret door. Erebor is used in the track, but not right before this appearance.



The Courage of Hobbits from DOS

1:30-1:35 we get the a cool new version of the Erebor theme as Bilbo enters Smaug's Chamber...
1:35-1:40 ... and it's followed by a really fast 4 note endcap - is this the same as the prior endcaps?




Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Are the two ideas I'm talking about here related or even the same thing?



Also, this is where I've found the descending phrase in BOFA, does anyone remember what is happening on screen during these times? I've only seen the film once so I dunno.

BOFA 1-02 Shores Of The Long Lake
2:46-2:58 Descending Theme

BOFA 1-03 Beyond Sorrow And Grief
0:52-0:58 Descending Theme

BOFA 1-08 Bred For War
0:44-0:52 Descending Theme

[Adervae 1]

I figured out the themes that comprise the first 30 seconds of "The Quest for Erebor" from DOS, which was thought as just "Opening Logos Theme".

1. The first six notes are a rhythmic variant of the the Erebor theme.

2. The next four notes after that are a darker variant of the Erebor "Endcap" that wasn't used very often in DOS.

The pattern repeats multiple times before phasing out into the Shire theme.

After all, the cue is called "The Quest for EREBOR", so it figures that the titular theme would at least appear somewhere prominent.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 324]

BOFA 1-02 Shores Of The Long Lake
2:46-2:58 Descending Theme (Alfrid calling Bard a born leader and Bard denying it)

BOFA 1-03 Beyond Sorrow And Grief
0:52-0:58 Descending Theme (Kili/Fili and the others descending the stairs, allthough

BOFA 1-08 Bred For War
0:44-0:52 Descending Theme (Legolas talking about how there is nothing to remember his mother with)

I dont think the last case especially is part of the same theme

edit: damnit BB

[Faleel 5,347]

My Dear Frodo from AUJ introduced us to the Erebor theme:

1:58-2:06 Erebor

2:06-2:09 4-note "endcap" / b section / descending theme

2:09-2:18 Erebor again

The interesting thing to note here is that, if you are right about this 4-note endcap, then that part (02:06-02:09) is looped in the film, since it plays twice there (so there 8 notes instead of 4). Though it's possible Shore just wanted to use the endcap twice there.

After that, i think you're talking about two different things:

Most of DOS doesn't use this endcap to Erebor, but the descending phrase shows up:

The Woodland Realm from DOS. This time it underscores the company being put into their cells

1:11-1:22 is where the descending theme plays. Erebor doesn't play any time around here.

This is what I call the martial idea for the Woodland Realm.

It also appears at 02:03-02:29/02:39-02:50 in The Gathering Of The Clouds, at 01:45-01:58 in The Fallen and 03:33-03:40 in Courage And Wisdom.

On The Doorstep from DOS

3:48-4:01 is the descending phrase again, playing as Bilbo is alone at the secret door. Erebor is used in the track, but not right before this appearance.

#1 Remember sometimes Shore microedited down the endcap/B section/Descending phrase

#2 I call it "Dwarves Vs. Elves", but there could be a better name out there.

#3 Jay, thats the motif I call The Dignity of Dwarves, you can also hear it in the edited out section of An Ancient Enemy as Thorin is talking about Azog dying of his wounds.

This is what I call the "Heroes Of Middle-Earth" idea, for lack of a better name. To me, it has nothing to do with the Erebor endcap. Rather, it sounds like the end of Thorin's theme (like at 03:45 in The Forest River.

IMHO, the bit in The Forest River is the Erebor Endcap, you can also hear it earlier in the cue at 3:34 (VLC time)

[gkgyver 1,645]

Observation in Battle For The Mountain: the choral segment from 2:34 to 2:53 is the theme Doug called "Battlefield Heroism" in his LotR book.

And I'm pretty sure 1:34-2:11 in Sons Of Durin is, too.

[Barnald 365]

Do you have timestamps from ROTK for 'Battlefield Heroism'?

[Incanus 5,714]

RotK: The Pyre of Denethor 0:59-1:18 and The Shieldmaiden of Rohan 3:41-3:46.

[gkgyver 1,645]

In Battle f.t. Mountain, the sopranos sing the trumpet line from Pyre of Denethor to the accompanying chords.

I'm not 100% sure about Sons of Durin, but I think it's at least a variation.

[Barnald 365]

Does the start of The Return Journey *kind of* remind anyone else of part of Gandalf's 'B' theme from AUJ? I say this as well because it scores some of the scene between Gandalf and Bilbo.

[Faleel 5,347]

Does the start of The Return Journey *kind of* remind anyone else of part of Gandalf's 'B' theme from AUJ?

Yes.

Though I am sure Jay, Inky, BB, KK, and others will say it is not.

[Incanus 5,714]

Could well be a part of the opening of it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The music here is reminiscent of the B phrase of Gandalf's theme, yes, though I'm not sure if that's supposed to be it.

[KK 3,307]

Reminiscent, yes. Doubt it was an intentional statement of the theme though.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Reminiscent, yes. Doubt it was an intentional statement of the theme though.

It's the exact same theme, with the exact same harmonic support.

And it appears for Gandalf letting some wisdom shine through again, or giving courage. Very intentional.

[KK 3,307]

Possibly.

That harmonic writing is also not uncommon to Shore's usual language for these kind of emotional scenes. The reason I'm a bit skeptical about it is because we haven't really heard a glimpse of this secondary theme since AUJ (unless we all agree the Nine is indeed an extrapolation of the melody), so it could be a coincidence.

But you could be right, and it could indeed be Gandalf's secondary theme.

[gkgyver 1,645]

It's also not uncommon for Shore to reuse principal themes verbatim, and in the same key, which is the case here.

It's hard to argue when it's a verbatim quote.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Doesn't sound like a verbatim quote of the theme to me.

I mean, it could be a quote of the theme, I don't deny that. But verbatim quote? Nope.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Well, it's certainly not a huge variation.

Same notes, same chords, same character. Jackson's love for the editor's knife has clearly smoked your mind.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,347]

They don't sound the same to me

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,347]

Realized only now, as I was working on the The Darkest Hour video, that the Laketown theme has a B phrase in BOFA.

Is this the famous Bard/Laketown theme people talk about?

Yes.

Basically the end of the Laketown theme altered into an ascending form and with a new section added like you said..

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

It sounds awesome in big heroic mode as heard in Ironfoot. It's a real shame Shore didn't get the opportunity to use it more in such a way in the score proper.

Agreed. But the efforts of the people of Lake-Town seemed too much like window dressing in the battle revolving around the main cast. I love how Shore takes the sea-shanty into a completely new direction with the martial trumpets that energize the Lake-Town theme and the nobly rising heroic B-section.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

The Lake-towners are pretty worthless though in all fairness. If they pulled their finger out they might actually earn their damn B-section.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

They know the most important thing in a battle: Pretend to fight, hide and wait for your allies to defeat the foe.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

It's basically Dwarves & Elves & Bard vs Orcs of DG and Gundabad

[Incanus 5,714]

They are all little Alfrids at heart.

I am amazed they all didn't dress up as old women for the battle. Of course the old women did but the men could have done that too.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Reading the book I always envisaged the contribution of the Laketowners to be small but not insignificant...perhaps a small band of reasonably well-trained militia, about 500 strong. But they're a real rag-tag band in the film, and, as things stand, are essentially cannon fodder for the Orcs. But some small additions in the EE could fix this impression somewhat, if Jackson is willing.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,012]

They are all little Alfrids at heart.

I am amazed they all didn't dress up as old women for the battle. Of course the old women did but the men could have done that too.

Which reminds me. Women at one point go into battle alongside men. But is there any shot in the film of them actually fighting?

Karol

[Barnald 365]

It seems that the guards were tied to the Master, so there was probably never going to be any redemption there.

[MedigoScan 324]

They are all little Alfrids at heart.

I am amazed they all didn't dress up as old women for the battle. Of course the old women did but the men could have done that too.

Which reminds me. Women at one point go into battle alongside men. But is there any shot in the film of them actually fighting?

Karol

Only in trailers

[Incanus 5,714]

It will be the highlight of the EE!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,347]

That could explain the film edit of Sons of Durin.

I don't understand why PJ felt the need to have all the Laketown guards die during Smaug's attack (or so it seems. I didn't see any later in the film).

Hmm I thought I saw some, but it might have been something else.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Women are not warriors in Middle-earth!

Eowyn is the one exception

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,347]

"Wesa Warriors, Wesa got a grand army."

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So Tauriel was a man?

Human women I mean.

Thats why the females are seen hiding in the Glittering Caves with the children. Or why ROTK has no women fighting in Minas Tirith.

[Faleel 5,347]

Well, with Rohan, if you are a Women and wanna fight, you gotta have a beard.

[BloodBoal 7,538]