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The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

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Alrighty, so then you musical experts, how should I note in my list the motif that plays at the following timestamps in Flies and Spiders, if it is not the Warg Riders motif?

4:21-4:23
5:18-5:20
5:23-5:25

Are these timestamps from the SE version of the track? I don't have that yet.

Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?

By The Nine, do you mean the Ringwraiths theme?

Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?

I hadn't before, but I hear it now! And what's also interesting is that directly after that, at 1:37, it seems to into a stripped down version of the original Nazgul theme!

I disagree. Isn't that just the Footsteps of Doom? The Dm tetrachord/cluster is a device Shore uses a lot for the badguys, not just the Nazgul. In fact that little bit sounds very similar to the statements of the "Footsteps of Doom" motif in FotR.

There is a new motif called by Shore in the sketch in the liner notes "The Nine". It is the soprano motif from High Fells I assume.

Ah, I see. Was it stated if this new theme is related to Gandalf the Grey's theme?

0:36 of A Liar and A Thief, thats one of Bilbo's themes right?

That's the Arkenstone theme.
Doesn't the Arkenstone theme also open the track Kingsfoil? I just realized that might the small fragment of a melody on celli in the opening of Wilderland also be a quote of the Arkenstone theme (at 0:16-0:20)?

I think you're right on both.

Oh I dunno..... I am listening closely to 0:16-0:20 of Wilderland and 0:00-0:06 of Kingsfoil right now and I am not sure that is the Arkenstone theme.... of course if when I see the film on Thursday characters are talking about Arkenstone in both scenes I will eat my words...

Listen to the accompanying choral melodic line with the Arkenstone cluster at 7:14 in "On the Doorstep". This little variation is what plays at the beginning of Kingsfoil and at Wilderland. The thing is, I'm not sure if its just a coincidence in the the latter because I can't imagine the Arkenstone being discussed in an action sequence while being chased by Beorn...

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Alrighty, so then you musical experts, how should I note in my list the motif that plays at the following timestamps in Flies and Spiders, if it is not the Warg Riders motif?

4:21-4:23
5:18-5:20
5:23-5:25

Are these timestamps from the EE version of the track? I don't have that yet.

It's called a Special Edition, not Extended Edition. Please use the proper abbreviation!

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KK, all my timestamps are for the SE version of the OSTs for both films.

And there is clearly a new theme for The Nine, I outlined all it's locations in my main post.

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Alrighty, so then you musical experts, how should I note in my list the motif that plays at the following timestamps in Flies and Spiders, if it is not the Warg Riders motif?

4:21-4:23
5:18-5:20
5:23-5:25

The Evil Of Spiders? The Webs motif? The Eight-Legged Footsteps Of Doom motif? The Mirkwood Mood motif?

By the way, LeBlanc, a TORN member did a similar thread here that may be of help (or not).

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Isn't that just the Footsteps of Doom? The Dm tetrachord/cluster is a device Shore uses a lot for the badguys, not just the Nazgul. In fact that little bit sounds very similar to the statements of the "Footsteps of Doom" motif in FotR.

I am admittedly a bit unfamiliar with the Footsteps of Doom motif. Where are the best places for me to hear that in FOTR?

It's a very simple, rhythmic 2 note motif that is one of Shore's most primal devices to represent evil in LotR. It's scattered all over the trilogy, especially FotR.

Just some timestamps:

Prologue - One Ring to Rule Them All 2:48-2:58

Saruman the White 1:49-2:07

A Shortcut to Mushrooms 1:09-1:24 (this statement is very similar to what you heard in The Nature of Evil)

KK, all my timestamps are for the SE version of the OSTs for both films.

And there is clearly a new theme for The Nine, I outlined all it's locations in my main post.

Yeah, I know what theme you're talking about. Just making guesses about how it all connects.

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I have to say I really like the new variation on the Erebor theme. The faster pace gives it more of an urgency. Thorin's Theme also seems to get a more varied treatment throughout the score. My main issue with both themes in AUJ is that they were quite simple, even simplistic themes, and Shore didn't really give them a lot of variation throughout that score.

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Alrighty, so then you musical experts, how should I note in my list the motif that plays at the following timestamps in Flies and Spiders, if it is not the Warg Riders motif?

4:21-4:23
5:18-5:20
5:23-5:25

Are these timestamps from the SE version of the track? I don't have that yet.

Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?

By The Nine, do you mean the Ringwraiths theme?

Did someone else notice that from 1:12 onwards in The Nature Of Evil, the low winds and strings outline The Nine?

I hadn't before, but I hear it now! And what's also interesting is that directly after that, at 1:37, it seems to into a stripped down version of the original Nazgul theme!

I disagree. Isn't that just the Footsteps of Doom? The Dm tetrachord/cluster is a device Shore uses a lot for the badguys, not just the Nazgul. In fact that little bit sounds very similar to the statements of the "Footsteps of Doom" motif in FotR.

There is a new motif called by Shore in the sketch in the liner notes "The Nine". It is the soprano motif from High Fells I assume.

Ah, I see. Was it stated if this new theme is related to Gandalf the Grey's theme?

Yes, it's the boy soprano piece. I don't think Doug mentioned a connection to Gandalf's theme, but I suspect a connection to the B-phrase of the theme, the ascending boy chorus from Radagast the Brown, which follows Gandalf's theme.

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Isn't that just the Footsteps of Doom? The Dm tetrachord/cluster is a device Shore uses a lot for the badguys, not just the Nazgul. In fact that little bit sounds very similar to the statements of the "Footsteps of Doom" motif in FotR.

I am admittedly a bit unfamiliar with the Footsteps of Doom motif. Where are the best places for me to hear that in FOTR?

It's a very simple, rhythmic 2 note motif that is one of Shore's most primal devices to represent evil in LotR. It's scattered all over the trilogy, especially FotR.

Just some timestamps:

Prologue - One Ring to Rule Them All 2:48-2:58

Saruman the White 1:49-2:07

A Shortcut to Mushrooms 1:09-1:24 (this statement is very similar to what you heard in The Nature of Evil)

Yes it is very much a tension raising device, a short musical exclamation adding dramatic weight to a moment.

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Isnt that 2 note motif simply the first 2 notes of the Nazgul choir theme?

Shore fanboys hear motifs in every single note!

I'm a big fan of the one-note Saddle motif for the Black Riders! Love the Black Hood motif as well!

Annoying isnt it.

For your information this is something I never picked up on my own before reading Doug's book. Plus it is not exactly like the rhythm of the Nazg├╗l theme. ;)

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You better be joking?

Perhaps I am. ;)

Footsteps of Doom is indeed derived from the Ringwraith's theme but it doesn't underscore them alone in the LotR trilogy.

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That's the issue I've always had with the categorization of "themes" as set out by Douglas Adams. Nearly every variation, offshoot or reduction get's labeled as a separate theme.

I think it a bit Wagnerian approach, where different variations on a leitmotif (or as Shore for some reason likes to call them, themes :P) gain new meanings from the modulation that differ, often subtly, from the previous incarnation. They are all derived from the basic colours or form but carry a different message. It is all about the intention of the composer, which is what Doug Adams is usually conveying to us in his writing. You can of course think about these themes in the normal theme and variations way if it helps you and feels more comfortable.

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You can of course think about these themes in the normal theme and variations way if it helps you and feels more comfortable.

Inky, don't patronize me because I don't slavishly follow the teachings of Doug, like you seem to do.

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You can of course think about these themes in the normal theme and variations way if it helps you and feels more comfortable.

Inky, don't patronize me because I don't slavishly follow the teachings of Doug, like you seem to do.

No that was not my intention. It should not be about following anyone's teachings but how you yourself view the music and feel to be the best way to make sense of it (if you want to get analytical on this music). I am just saying that we do have the composer's own intentions layed out for us by Mr. Adams in his writings. Nothing stops you from doing your own interpretation or dividing material the way you feel it should be done. But don't go all grumpy and bitter if people talk about the music in the "official" terms and names if they so choose.

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My official label is "Doug," which technically is a variation on "Douglas," but I prefer to categorize it separately.

Thanks for all the fish,

D

Thank you Doug(las) (in JWFan Fellowship) for setting things to rights and record straight!

Btw is this "official" word from you or was Shore involved somehow? Was this your original intention or is Douglas an alternate take on Doug? Or the other way around. I can clearly see traces of the name in that variant. Is Dougster also an offshoot of the thematic tree or another new motif? And what about the Horse (on the JWFan Messageboard)? Is it an official title or is there a more definitive one coming?

Cataloging the world is a tough job but someone has to do it! Order and method I say! Order and method! ;)

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My official label is "Doug," which technically is a variation on "Douglas," but I prefer to categorize it separately.

Thanks for all the fish,

D

I like fish...

Raw and wrigling?!!!

gollum+eating+fish.jpg

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I guess that is the traditional way of eating fish in Finland. If it must be uncooked, i prefer it salted or pickled...

Nothing beats the feeling of a fish putting up a fight as it slides down your gullet! But sometimes I spoil the nice raw fishssss with frying or cooking it properly yesss...

Raw fish in sushi form works for me too. Gravlax (raw spiced salmon) is also excellent. But I won't go into details of the lax thematics here. Far too complicated and intricate.

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Does anyone know why all the other Shore LOTR/Hobbit soundtracks say "Music composed, orchestrated and conducted by Howard Shore" and TDOS soundtrack merely says "Music composed by..."

Because this time around Howard Shore utilized the services of orchestrators and a conductor. Conrad Pope one of Hollywood's top orchestrators did the orchestrations for this score and also conducted the sessions. James Sizemore was the second orchestrator credited in the album liner notes. He is also credited for editing the album.

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Ah, thanks. That's what I get for being away for a while. :-)

You know between Pope's involvement, what happened with the tracking music on AUJ, and the fact that Shore barely got a mention in the AUJ EE doc, I can't help wonder if there's still some stuff going on between Shore and Jackson from King Kong.

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Ah, thanks. That's what I get for being away for a while. :-)

You know between Pope's involvement, what happened with the tracking music on AUJ, and the fact that Shore barely got a mention in the AUJ EE doc, I can't help wonder if there's still some stuff going on between Shore and Jackson from King Kong.

Please don't let this discussion be thrown back by several months ....

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Ah, thanks. That's what I get for being away for a while. :-)

You know between Pope's involvement, what happened with the tracking music on AUJ, and the fact that Shore barely got a mention in the AUJ EE doc, I can't help wonder if there's still some stuff going on between Shore and Jackson from King Kong.

Please don't let this discussion be thrown back by several months ....

Agreed. The line of discussion suggested is simplistic at best. Shore is fully invested in these scores and everything you hear is part of his design.

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In that timestamp, I've heard Rohan, Shire, Baggins/Took, or Gandalf The Grey depending on I don't know what... It's basically a big enigma to me lol. I'm sure it'll be obvious once I see the film.

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