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Jay

The Themes of Howard Shore's The Hobbit

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Um, was it not obvious? The bombastic statement of Smaug theme in the middle was obviously for the main title.

Well don't you like to sound so superior all the time. Yes it was of course obvious to me months ago that that statement plays over the title card for the film, but of course in all four prior movie the title is never the first thing shown after the prologue ends, there is always a few scenes back in the present time line before the title is shown.

The theatrical cuts of FotR and TTT, and TTT extended would like to disagree ;)

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Well I mentioned this whole Wilderland/Smaug's Theme/main title card thingy a while ago. It was I, I tell you! Me, myself and I! Some credit to this direction! :stick:

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Home is behind, the JWFAN ahead,

and there are many threads to tread,

through shadows to the edge of night,

where theme discussions are alight,

theme and motif, note and stave,

away shall fade, awaaaayyyy shaaall faaaade!

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Well I mentioned this whole Wilderland/Smaug's Theme/main title card thingy a while ago. It was I, I tell you! Me, myself and I! Some credit to this direction! :stick:

It should have been obvious to anyone listening why Smaug's Theme played there that way.... That's not the issue. My only point I was trying to make here was that I assumed that the first minute of the track was for current Bilbo/company scenes, not Thorin/Gandalf prologue scenes.... And then gkgyver came here and told us otherwise.

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Well I mentioned this whole Wilderland/Smaug's Theme/main title card thingy a while ago. It was I, I tell you! Me, myself and I! Some credit to this direction! :stick:

It should have been obvious to anyone listening why Smaug's Theme played there that way.... That's not the issue. My only point I was trying to make here was that I assumed that the first minute of the track was for current Bilbo/company scenes, not Thorin/Gandalf prologue scenes.... And then gkgyver came here and told us otherwise.

I still want my damn credit! ;)

But yes it is interesting how the prologue of the film continues into the Wilderland track and is not a self contained prologue as such as Gk reported. Perhaps there is some kind of dramatic pause in the movie before the Wilderland starts or something. You'll know soon enough Jason! :)

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Already posted that in the AUJ score thread, but it seems fitting to put it there as well, so that LeBlanc can update his list:

I think this guy deciphered the theme appearing at the very beginning of AUJ (and at the beginning of A Good Omen as well)!

Looks like it's The House Of Durin theme! Listen to 5'13 in the video below:

And then the beginning of My Dear Frodo:

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From this day forward, the 14th of December will always be celebrated as Alvar's Day. The day that our Messenger came from the place where he is, to our humble forum and delivered us the answer to the most important question ever posed on this forum.

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From this day forward, the 14th of December will always be celebrated as Alvar's Day. The day that our Messenger came from the place where he is, to our humble forum and delivered us the answer to the most important question ever posed on this forum.

So it was proposed! So shall it be! All celebrate Alvar the Messenger's Day!

This story shall the good man teach his son;

And BloodBoal the Messenger's day shall ne’er go by,

From this day to the ending of the world,

But we in it shall be remembered,

We few, we happy few, we band of brothers.

For he to-day that listens his Howard Shore scores with me

Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,

This day shall gentle his condition;

And gentlemen in all lands now a-bed

Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,

And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks

That heard the news with us upon BloodBoal's day.

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Look! He speaks again! We are truly blessed on this day, Alvar's day.

All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what has BloadBoal ever done for us?

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Are you guys even serious right now? I posted that the opening logos theme from AUJ was the House of Durin theme two months ago!

Then how come your list (which was posted a week ago) has "Unknown theme" written at the beginning of My Dear Frodo??

I think you might have talked about it on Doug's blog, and mixed up that place and JWFAN!

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When I heard the house of Durin theme for the very first time, I immediately thought it was the AUJ opening logos theme, which I thought made sense as it would have been reprised in A Good Omen as the dwarfs her rescued by the Eagles, keeping the line of Durin alive and on their quest.

So I posted so here, and Doug came in and replied that the themes weren't connected at all, so I changed my list!

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Good point!

Explain this fact LeBlanc, and be quick with it!

Alvar's Day Forever!



So I posted so here, and Doug came in and replied that the themes weren't connected at all!

Do you believe him?

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When I heard the house of Durin theme for the very first time, I immediately thought it was the AUJ opening logos theme, which I thought made sense as it would have been reprised in A Good Omen as the dwarfs her rescued by the Eagles, keeping the line of Durin alive and on their quest.

So I posted so here, and Doug came in and replied that the themes weren't connected at all!

Ah, well, damn!

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BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

So you're really saying this similarity is not intentional? Seems kind of striking to me.

attachicon.gifdurin.png

Looking forward to the liner notes, apart from specialty label releases it's rare to get that level of insight delivered right with the music :)

Thank you!

Actually, I guess what I'm saying is what I always say: I'll address this subject later down the line, likely, but right now I'm holding my tongue.

Let the mockery commence! ;)

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Here's me posting about the connection on November 15th, when the 30 second samples first showed up online:

Well I think the speculation that Conrad Pope orchestrating/conducting instead of Shore would affect the score negatively can be completely squashed, this sounds absolutely Shore through and through. It sounds amazing!!

Hard to get too much of a feel for the score from 30 second blips, but there seems to be a variety of good stuff here.

Favorite bits so far are the Bilbo material in Barrels out of Bond, and the action adventure opening to The Forest River

Smaug stuff at the end seems really cool!

Based on the Quest For Erebor sample, it seems the film's opening logos are scored with another brand new theme! I wonder if it will return in the finale like AUJ's (originally) did?

RETURNING themes I hear in these samples:

03 A Necromancer
0:02-0:27 is this a new variation of Descending Thirds?

08 Barrels Out Of Bond
0:00-0:13 Bilbo's Adventure Theme
0:22-end Bilbo's Fussy Theme

12 The High Fells
0:09-0:11 is that choral word from the Ringwraith theme?
0:11-end the High Fells strings from Edge of the Wild

13 The Nature of Evil
all The Woodland Realm theme (theme when Thranduil enters Erebor in My Dear Frodo)

17 Durin's Folk
0:18- 0:28 Erebor

18 In The Shadow of the Mountain
all Is this the opening logos theme from AUJ?

19 A Spell of Concealment
0:11-end Descending Thirds

21 The Courage of Hobbits
0:09-end The Shire

22 Inside Information
0:07-0:09 first two notes of Smaug's Theme

24 A Liar and a Thief
0:02-0:25 Smaug's inverted theme (from Axe or Sword)

Did I miss anything?


Here's me on December 2nd:

That theme you are talking about appears all over the second disc (It also opens In The Shadow of the Mountain, and reaches it's climax during My Armor Is Iron, for exanple) and yea, I've thought it was related to the AUJ opening logos music since I first heard it. When you factor in what it represents, and that Shore intended it to play again in AUJ when the company gets rescued by Eagles, it makes sense.


And here are Doug and I discussing the theme, where he says its NOT related to the AUJ opening logos!

It's the theme for the line of Durin, and gradually replaces Thorin's theme as the theme used for his heroic and kingly actions and he gets closer to reclaiming his kingdom. It's kind of a shame Shore hadn't written it yet last year, and could have put some building-block version of it in AUJ.


Ah, but you HAVE heard the building-block version ... it was in Thorin's theme. The new Dwarf theme is built over the same opening harmonies (A minor--G major). It touches on some other Dwarf themes as well. There's a strong cumulative effect in this one -- it has a lot of relatives!

You'll find a lot of forethought on display in this score (and, by proxy, in the last), but you'll need to listen to more than just the melodic lines.

Wow, very interesting, thanks Doug!

See, I'm not musically trained what-soever, so essentially all I really have to go by is melody a lot of times, cause that's the most easily recognizable thing to a "layperson" like me. That's cool that the Durin theme is built off of the Thorin theme (or perhaps, it makes more sense to say Thorin's theme is a deconstructed version of the Durin theme?). Still, wouldn't it have been cool to hear the full Durin theme like we have in DOS during the AUJ prologue, when we are seeing their kingdom in full glory before it was destroyed? Or during the Battle of Moria flashback as they charge against the orcs? Maybe a sad version for Thror's beheading? Just daydreaming here :)

BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?

No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.

Before he posted that, I *did* have it listed as the House of Durin theme in my list - his post made me change it to UNKNOWN THEME!

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I still can't believe you are all thanking BloodBoal for pointing out something that I pointed out a month ago, and that Doug and I discussed back and forth for a while on this very forum! WTF, people?

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BTW here's his entire tweet, as it was only partially quoted before

I usually hold of on things like this until later, but in honor of #Smaug day ...The opening of #HowardShore's first #Hobbit score combines the melodic shape of the House of Durin theme (as heard in #DOS) ...... with the #4-5 harmonic resolution of the History of the Ring theme (as heard in #LOTR). That opening passage provides a mini-overture to both halves of #Shore's six-score saga by seeding a central theme of each. Now, go enjoy your Friday night. Should be something fun to do, I imagine ... ;)

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Hold on a second, I thought all of us were here and acknowledged the fact when Jason pointed out the similarity. So its strange that we're all bowing to BB (even if its Alvar's Day). And yes, I recall Doug coming in and saying there was no similarity, which I found fishy, because they were so close in constructs.

Perhaps there's the slightest chance that Doug himself missed the connection till recently? Maybe he brought it up with Shore and just tweeted it. :P

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This BloodBoal is nothing more than a mortal man, a conjurer dabbling in idea-stealing!

I thought you were spot on when you first mentioned it Jason, and was surprised to see Doug deny it. But I'm glad the truth has come out. It might be my favorite theme of the trilogy.

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BloodBoal is no mere man. He is an idea. He is greater than all of us and yet better than none. We feel it in the water, we feel it in the Earth, we smell it in the air, but we can never grasp it. He speaks through us and speaks against us. He is both direct and indirect, both emphatic and voiceless, both matter and anti-matter. He is creation and harbinger of destruction. He is all and nothing. None of us could dare hope to understand the engima that is BloodBoal, let alone defy him.

To Alvar's Day!

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Thanks for the clarification Doug! We fans just get so riled up by the nuances of these musical moments, that its easy for us to mistake things, or create connections that may not neccessarily exist in such a "black and white" form. Looking forward to more of your DoS posts. Do you intend on sharing some tidbits in the fashion about which you discussed "Bilbo's Primer" last year?

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In all fairness I am willing to let Jason share in BBs glory! All celebrate now the first Jason and Alvar Day, the Theme Finder and The Messenger (and sometime Barrel rider)! ;)

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One rendition of Thorin's theme that would loved to have heard in DoS is the one in Bm (1:54 in An Ancient Enemy). The hairs on the back of my neck stood up when I first heard that. Frankly, the regular Am statements sound lightweight in comparison.

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I didn't want to get into the #4-5 Ring connection yet and, in my haste, did not express myself clearly at all. For this I apologize. The AUJ titles are actually more Ring inspired than Dwarf inspired. This was why I said I'd say more at a later date.

To be (slightly) clearer: claiming that the AUJ passage "is the House of Durin" theme is categorically incorrect. The line is related to both Durin and the Ring--more the latter than the former--but it is also its own thing.

This is why I personally put no stock in list making per se. Lists always lose so much nuance. Of course, I couldn't even phrase my previous post correctly, so I guess I'm not one to talk, eh?

D

Thanks Doug!... But of course your post opens up more questions. :)

If I understand you correctly, you're implying that Shore had already written The House of Durin theme before scoring AUJ, and then chose to write a "combo" melody to be used under the opening company logos that "seeds" both the House of Durin and the History of the Ring themes at the same time. Is that right?

OK, but then why did he choose to reprise this new melody at the end of the score, in "A Good Omen", meant to play as the eagles show up and rescue our heroes? Why not just use the straight forward House of Durin there?

And why didn't this combo melody appear in DOS at all?

Thanks for anything to can share in response!

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