TWIN PEAKS

[Romão 2,274]

No idea either

[scallenger 483]

I think this is how we all feel now...

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lets hope Jason will make a spreadsheet!

[Quintus 5,399]

6 hours ago, Romão said:

Man, I loved these last two episodes, specially the very last one.

This show took a while to get used to, seeing how different it was from the previous seasons of Twin Peaks. And after 16 episodes, when you think you can have the tone of this show figured out, Lynch throws us yet another curve ball with these two episodes, specially the very last one.

I thought this last one was an extraordinary hour of television. I was completely taken by it.

 

If it hadn't been the final episode, I'd be inclined to agree. Well, apart from the inexplicably long drive/air time between Coop and Diane.

Quote

But for better or worse, this is easiest the ballsiest, most uncompromising show I have ever seen. 

That's undeniable, but I have to consider its place in the broader whole of The Return, and no matter how good some episodes/moments of it were, I can't overlook that for the most part I found the experience to be a pacing and structural mess.

[Thor 7,478]

7 hours ago, Romão said:

BTW, the previous owner of what was suposed to be Sarah's Palmer house was Chalfont, which was the name Mrs. Tremond went by when she was living in the Fat Trout Trailer park in FWWM. And the current owner of the house was Alice Tremond

The woman who plays the owner is actually the REAL-LIFE owner of the house (Mary Reber), Lynch once again eroding the line between the real and the imagined in proper meta fashion.

 

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

That's undeniable, but I have to consider its place in the broader whole of The Return, and no matter how good some episodes/moments of it were, I can't overlook that for the most part I found the experience to be a pacing and structural mess.

It's interesting that what you call a 'pacing and structural mess' is the exact thing that makes this show so great, IMO. It's not a mess, IMO, it's a very deliberate experimentation with how audience experiences time and conventions.

[Quintus 5,399]

I know for a fact that's it is quite deliberate on Lynch's part. But what you regard as experimentation, I consider to be little more than a celebration of redundancy.

[Thor 7,478]

Fair enough, I guess. I'm not going to tout the ol' "You don't get Lynch" or "you don't get alternative cinema" horn, tempting as it may be.

[Quintus 5,399]

Well you just did do all the same, as I expected

But the way I always put this into perspective is that you think Prometheus is profound and sophisticated. I sleep easy.

[Romão 2,274]

I'm eagerly waiting the release of the soundtrack. Even though music was far less prevalent in this show than in the previous seasons, there is still at least a good hour's worth of incredible Bandalamenti's music

[KK 3,307]

The season clearly has its flaws and issues. But I was entirely on board with the finale, which was very much Twin Peaks for me with a ballsier Lynch at the helm. Only thing I really take issue with is the Diane stuff. Loved the long drive with Coop/Richard and Palmer/Linda.

Overall, I'm glad we got The Return. Definitely some of the strangest and most fascinating stuff on TV.

[Quintus 5,399]

I enjoyed parts and found much of it enthralling (The Return has dominated my idle thoughts this summer), but when all is said and done, the 9 hours into 18 thing is of too much devastatingly impactful consequence for me. No matter the ambition or vision on show; I absolutely demand tight pacing and satisfying structure in my "high end" entertainment. Because of that, I simply prefer other great television, by a wide margin.

In other words: I'll take Better Call Saul season 4 over Twin Peaks season 4.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

But...who is the dreamer?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[A24 4,327]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

IMO, it's a very deliberate experimentation with how audience experiences time and conventions.

That's how it feels to me, like a test, an experiment, almost to the point of being amusing, but it doesn't help the act of storytelling itself. The slowness isn't hypnotizing nor does it evoke wonderment (like one could experience with a Tarkovsky film). In a way, it was more like Star Trek: The Movie. Just because you tell the story extremely slow doesn't mean that you have created the next 2001: A Space Odyssey.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It's Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

[mstrox 6,647]

Star Trek: The Return

[Thor 7,478]

2 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

That's how it feels to me, like a test, an experiment, almost to the point of being amusing, but it doesn't help the act of storytelling itself. The slowness isn't hypnotizing nor does it evoke wonderment (like one could experience with a Tarkovsky film). In a way, it was more like Star Trek: The Movie. Just because you tell the story extremely slow doesn't mean that you have created the next 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Well, I had a very different reaction. I was transfixed by a lot of this, much as I am with directors such as Tarkovskij, Bela Tarr, Angeloupoulos, Antonioni, Werasethakul etc. I love how Lynch has transposed a lot of the ideas of the slow cinema movement into this series, while -- sort of -- staying within a traditional frame. I think this is very different from the other type of transfixation you mention (the docking sequence in STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE), which is more visceral in the sense that you marvel at the audiovisual display; a form of superficial display that isn't necessarily ripe with content. The slow sequences in this series are almost always filled with narrative/thematic tension and undercurrents.

[A24 4,327]

3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

It's Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Forgive me, I'm not a Trekkie.

 

1 hour ago, Thor said:

Well, I had a very different reaction. I was transfixed by a lot of this, much as I am with directors such as Tarkovskij, Bela Tarr, Angeloupoulos, Antonioni, Werasethakul etc. I love how Lynch has transposed a lot of the ideas of the slow cinema movement into this series, while -- sort of -- staying within a traditional frame. I think this is very different from the other type of transfixation you mention (the docking sequence in STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE), which is more visceral in the sense that you marvel at the audiovisual display; a form of superficial display that isn't necessarily ripe with content. The slow sequences in this series are almost always filled with narrative/thematic tension and undercurrents.

You're right, in most cases Lynch doesn't try to be audiovisual, except in one episode where he presents a very long FX scene, including an atom bomb explosion. That was like Kubrick's Jupiter and Beyond The Infinite or the universe scenes from Malick's The Tree Of Life.  Very bold for a TV series.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

10 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

Forgive me, I'm not a Trekkie.

You need to be a Trekkie to know the title of a well known 1979 film.

[Thor 7,478]

12 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

Forgive me, I'm not a Trekkie.

 

You're right, in most cases Lynch doesn't try to be audiovisual, except in one episode where he presents a very long FX scene, including an atom bomb explosion. That was like Kubrick's Jupiter and Beyond The Infinite or the universe scenes from Malick's The Tree Of Life.  Very bold for a TV series.

 

Oh, I think there are many audiovisual "art installation" tableaux in THE RETURN (most of them gobsmackingly beautiful). But I was more thinking of the sequences that are more narrative, yet where the tempo is slowed down. The car driving scenes in the last couple of episodes, many of the dialogue sequences with all the artificial pauses, Ben Horne exploring the Great Northern "hum" etc. Even the Richard Horne break-in at his grandmother's. They all intensify as Lynch refuses to cut away or omit pauses. It's something you see in a lot of slow cinema (latter-day Ozu is another one that comes to mind), but VERY rarely in mainstream television. BETTER CALL SAUL is slow too, but fairly straightforward in its exposition and "forward momentum", if you will. There's very little of that here. THE RETURN often goes beyond the limits of the general audience's relationship to film time and film conventions, which I find fascinating and involving.

I adore "hybrid" filmmaking like this.

[A24 4,327]

7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

You need to be a Trekkie to know the title of a well known 1979 film.

Yes, Steef, I just accidentally demonstrated that I'm living proof that you need to be a Trekkie for that.

 

1 minute ago, Thor said:

 

Oh, I think there are many audiovisual "art installation" tableaux in THE RETURN (most of them gobsmackingly beautiful).

I must have missed most of them, Thor. I remember the long 'evil entering our dimension' FX scene. The three girls against the wall in their pink outfits (the strongest one, IMO) and the overjoyed face of Amanda Seyfried in the car. And now I already have to think really hard if there were more scenes that made an impression on me.

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Alexcremers said:

Yes, Steef, I just accidentally demonstrated that I'm living proof that you need to be a Trekkie for that

Or you aren't as big a movie fan as you've always claimed....hmmmm

[Thor 7,478]

1 hour ago, Alexcremers said:

I must have missed most of them, Thor. I remember the long 'evil entering our dimension' FX scene. The three girls against the wall in their pink outfits (the strongest one, IMO) and the overjoyed face of Amanda Seyfried in the car. And now I already have to think really hard if there were more scenes that made an impression on me.

 

 

No love for the monochrome Lodge sequences? It's like German expressionism on acid!

[A24 4,327]

34 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Or you aren't as big a movie fan as you've always claimed....hmmmm

Now if I said Citizen Shane instead of Citizen Kane, or Film Soirée instead of Film Noir, you would have a point, Steef, but Star Trek simply isn't such a big deal in the movie scene.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A Robert Wise movie, not a big deal?

Okay. .

[Quintus 5,399]

Re: the famous Lodge/Red Room scenes, and a little observation I made a few weeks back: at one time, it was those strikingly bizarre and eventually iconic moments which people referenced when talking about the "slow as hell weird shit" they remember about Twin Peaks. I know people (older than I) who didn't bother to watch The Return purely because of that vague memory of those scenes - it actually put them off!

To me those scenes are utterly mesmerising. But to some they are just too, um, off-beat

But now, in The Return, those very same or similar sequences, actually feel normal and even quite fast-paced... compared to everything else - set in the real world! 

Lynch actually managed to make the real world places and interactions incredibly boring and wholly unremarkable. A casino? Slots? Really?? A housing estate of new builds?? An insurance building?? WTF!!

By comparison, The Black Lodge feels safe and even normal again. It's an escape from mundane location shooting and boring sets! The Black Lodge almost feels like standard TV.

[Romão 2,274]

On 05/09/2017 at 2:05 PM, KK said:

Maybe. Some things paid off (ex. Horne and the ringing) 

I don't remember. Was there any closure on the buzzing sound they heard in the Great Northern?

[Thor 7,478]

9 hours ago, Romão said:

I don't remember. Was there any closure on the buzzing sound they heard in the Great Northern?

I don't think so, but it could be related to the Great Northern "basement" where Cooper enters the door with his key in the last episode (the gateway to the "Philip Jeffries motel").

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wait, what?

[Quintus 5,399]

Yes, the sound is heard quite clearly there. I considered that the "closure" to that mystery.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I missed that!

[KK 3,307]

44 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Yes, the sound is heard quite clearly there. I considered that the "closure" to that mystery.

So did I. I figured that whole "storyline" was just hinting at that "portal" or whatever.

[Quintus 5,399]

Ashley Judd. Just one of many superfluous additions to the cast, completely wasted.

[Thor 7,478]

3 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Ashley Judd. Just one of many superfluous additions to the cast, completely wasted.

 

I don't know....albeit brief, I loved her interaction with Beymer in that one episode. It's like a small golden nugget in this wildly disparate fictional universe.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's one thing that was very noticeable and kinda bothered me. We see a lot of the old characters only in one, maybe 2 sets. I think Beymer is only seen in his office. Peggy Lipton doesn't leave the dinner I think. Jacoby etc etc.

Feels like all of these scenes were fast tracked and shot in a day or so. Ready to be spliced in where needed to fill out an episode.

[Quintus 5,399]

It was Arrested Development S3 syndrome again. Arbitrary appearances purely for the sake of fan service, and to put "Twin Peaks" on the label.

Jerry Horne? Literally a waste of time.

[A24 4,327]

I didn't bother me but it did feel like Lynch granted friends & actors a small cameo part, just because he could, and kinda similar in the way he offered numerous bands a podium at the end of the episodes. 

[Thor 7,478]

11 minutes ago, Alexcremers said:

I didn't bother me but it did feel like Lynch granted friends & actors a small cameo part, just because he could, and kinda similar in the way he offered numerous bands a podium at the end of the episodes. 

There's that, and there's the whole 'slice of pie' mentality -- the ebb and flow between the larger narrative and the sense of 'being there', if only for a fleeting moment. I don't consider the actors 'wasted' because of their limited onscreen time. It's more like a backdrop; an acknowledgement of their existence among the mayhem. I like that, even if there are characters I obviously would have seen more of.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Harry Dean Stanton is a great American character actor. Why was he in this? 

[Quintus 5,399]

On 07/09/2017 at 12:58 PM, Thor said:

There's that, and there's the whole 'slice of pie' mentality -- the ebb and flow between the larger narrative and the sense of 'being there', if only for a fleeting moment. 

 

Being where? A set? I didn't believe that packed-out Road House atmosphere for a second! A huge crowd of rockers all swaying intently side to side during a performance of some latest emo band, hahaha okay. Actually, the Road House music platform took me out of the world every single time it predictably arrived in an episode. It crossed a boundary.

On 07/09/2017 at 1:06 PM, Stefancos said:

Harry Dean Stanton is a great American character actor. Why was he in this? 

He's briefly in FWWM, so presumably that was why Lynch had him back. There's no other reason, is there? Just have him in for a bit, hanging around and stuff. Get him to strum along to a little song on his guitar. Job's a good 'un.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Quintus 5,399]

To die-hard Lynch Peaksters he was absolutely hysterical, yeah.

[Romão 2,274]

This is an interesting review, I think

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/sep/06/twin-peaks-was-this-the-long-perfect-goodbye-from-david-lynch?CMP=fb_gu

[mstrox 6,647]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Harry Dean Stanton is a great American character actor. Why was he in this? 

He's good friends with Lynch.  It was a bit of a stretch to move his trailer park from Deer Meadow (in FWWM) to Twin Peaks just to have him on the show, but I thought a few of his scenes were really lovely (the car accident scene, and the little song/guitar thing towards the end especially).

 

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

That's one thing that was very noticeable and kinda bothered me. We see a lot of the old characters only in one, maybe 2 sets. I think Beymer is only seen in his office. Peggy Lipton doesn't leave the dinner I think. Jacoby etc etc.

Feels like all of these scenes were fast tracked and shot in a day or so. Ready to be spliced in where needed to fill out an episode.

I think it would be really fascinating to read Lynch/Frost's massive shooting script.  I'd buy a copy in a heartbeat.  I bet the positioning/spreading out of scenes would have been much different, and there may even have been some resolution to some of the dangling storylines.

 

2 hours ago, Thor said:

 

I don't know....albeit brief, I loved her interaction with Beymer in that one episode. It's like a small golden nugget in this wildly disparate fictional universe.

I thought the Ashley Judd/Beymer romance was really well done.  The scenes with them bouncing around the room looking for the sound had a great unspoken tension to them.  It also worked as one of the "legacy character" vignettes that actually fully resolved a story.  (Well, Horne's side of the story was resolved, but Judd/her husband didn't wrap up)
 

3 hours ago, Quintus said:

Yes, the sound is heard quite clearly there. I considered that the "closure" to that mystery.

I agree. I feel like the tone was a complete/solved mystery.  It's some sort of lodge/portal beckoning tone, possibly associated with the One-Armed Man.

1)  Ben and Ashley Judd hear the sound in the Great Northern.
2) James, working security at the Great Northern, finds the boiler room door and hears the tone.
3)  We hear the tone in Las Vegas, drawing everyone out of Dougie's room so that Cooper could wake up and talk to the one-armed man
4)  Cooper enters the boiler room under the Great Northern and the tone becomes overwhelming - the One Armed Man is waiting (his only non-Lodge appearance in The Return), and they are then transported to the area above the Convenience Store.

 

 

Both soundtrack albums are going to be delivered tomorrow.  Can't wait!

[Thor 7,478]

2 hours ago, Quintus said:

 

Being where? A set? I didn't believe that packed-out Road House atmosphere for a second! A huge crowd of rockers all swaying intently side to side during a performance of some latest emo band, hahaha okay. Actually, the Road House music platform took me out of the world every single time it predictably arrived in an episode. It crossed a boundary.

I have no issues with the Roadhouse segments, but yeah -- for me, many of these short sequences [what many of you label 'wasted opportunities'] were like driving through a familiar city with familiar faces, yet not necessarily stopping and chatting with everyone. They're THERE, but they're not necessarily part of the bigger story arc (at least not all of them).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Anyone else thought Sheryl Lee was very good in the last 2 episodes?

[Romão 2,274]

She's always good. She deserved an Oscar nomination for FWWM

[Thor 7,478]

She was brilliant. From the moment she opens the door to the final scream. And -- what I assume are CGI/motion capture in the "new" flashback material.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I thought the way the movie footage was intergrated was really well done. And the scene itself where Cooper essentially changes Laura's destiny was extremely moving.