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It's a D. First thought it was just a really uniquely orchestrated Bm7 with no 3rd. But I'm pretty sure there's a barely audible D in there. You can hear it rise to an E at 1:08, then a G, then an A.

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It's a D. First thought it was just a really uniquely orchestrated Bm7 with no 3rd. But I'm pretty sure there's a barely audible D in there. You can hear it rise to an E at 1:08, then a G, then an A.

Doesn't it just go back down to D after G?

Another favourite from RRB.

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - Ab13 - Ebm9 - Gbm9 - G13/D - G7alt

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - B7alt - Em9 - Am9 - F#m7,11 - (?)

Am I right?

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It's a D. First thought it was just a really uniquely orchestrated Bm7 with no 3rd. But I'm pretty sure there's a barely audible D in there. You can hear it rise to an E at 1:08, then a G, then an A.

Doesn't it just go back down to D after G?

Another favourite from RRB.

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - Ab13 - Ebm9 - Gbm9 - G13/D - G7alt

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - B7alt - Em9 - Am9 - F#m7,11 - (?)

Am I right?

Mark?

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It's a D. First thought it was just a really uniquely orchestrated Bm7 with no 3rd. But I'm pretty sure there's a barely audible D in there. You can hear it rise to an E at 1:08, then a G, then an A.

Doesn't it just go back down to D after G?

I hear the D rising to E and staying there until the return of the Bm7 at 1:13. The G is in another voice coming from a G#.

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - Ab13 - Ebm9 - Gbm9 - G13/D - G7alt

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - B7alt - Em9 - Am9 - F#m7,11 - (?)

Am I right?

I get:

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - Ab13 - Ebm9 - Abm9 - D9 - G7(b9,b13)

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - B7(b9,b13) - Em9 - Am9 - F#m7sus4(add9) or E6/F#

The last chord is created through voice leading. In the voices above the F# bass, G#-B-C#-E moves to G-B-C#-F#. If you want a symbol for it, you could say GM7(b5)/F#, or Em6(add9)/F# with the understanding of having no root E. That's more sensible considering the context of coming from an E6 chord.

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Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - Ab13 - Ebm9 - Gbm9 - G13/D - G7alt

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - B7alt - Em9 - Am9 - F#m7,11 - (?)

Am I right?

I get:

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - Ab13 - Ebm9 - Abm9 - D9 - G7(b9,b13)

Cm9 - Fm9 - Cm9 - B7(b9,b13) - Em9 - Am9 - F#m7sus4(add9) or E6/F#

The last chord is created through voice leading. In the voices above the F# bass, G#-B-C#-E moves to G-B-C#-F#. If you want a symbol for it, you could say GM7(b5)/F#, or Em6(add9)/F# with the understanding of having no root E. That's more sensible considering the context of coming from an E6 chord.

The Gbm9 was a mistake on my part, meant Abm9 since that's what I remember playing on the piano. The D9, I was unsure about, but playing it again I think you're right - the only caveat being that I hear a 13th but no fifth (F#-B-C-E). There were four horns in this score, and I believe all of the chords here are 4 note upper structure chords (EbMaj7/C, AbMaj7/F, GbMajb5/Ab etc.). Do you agree?

The G7alt is the same thing as G7(b9,b13) - just less specific and shorter in description.

Agree on notes in the final chord, except that I'd write it as F#sus9 (F#sus9 -> GMaj7b5/F# x2). A chord can't be both a minor 7th and suspended.

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The Gbm9 was a mistake on my part, meant Abm9 since that's what I remember playing on the piano. The D9, I was unsure about, but playing it again I think you're right - the only caveat being that I hear a 13th but no fifth (F#-B-C-E). There were four horns in this score, and I believe all of the chords here are 4 note upper structure chords (EbMaj7/C, AbMaj7/F, GbMajb5/Ab etc.). Do you agree?

Entirely.

The G7alt is the same thing as G7(b9,b13) - just less specific and shorter in description.

G7alt could be a lot of things. That's why I like the less concise but more descriptive label. Laziness should not be tolerated!

Agree on notes in the final chord, except that I'd write it as F#sus9 (F#sus9 -> GMaj7b5/F# x2). A chord can't be both a minor 7th and suspended.

Yes I know. I had it as F#m7 then changed my mind and forgot to delete the "m". D'oh.

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I think you're mostly right, though in the first chord I can hear E4 and F#4, and in the second chord - F4 and G4 resolving to E4 and F4 on the third. I'd have the time signature as 7/4 or 5/4 + 2/4, and the cello figure in your sixth bar would be quaver triplets.

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Shark's transcription looks good to me. Now the thing is to understand it. First of all, there's the consistent quartal arrangement of the chords. They're all heard as substitutes for more regular triads in thirds, as is typical in jazz like this. So they're still very tonal, but give the passage a more modern flavour with the quartal spacing.

But a more "big-picture" view might say that the functions of the chords are quite traditional, going:

Tonic (mm. 1-2) - Subdominant (mm. 3-4) - Tonic (m. 5) - Subdominant (m. 6) - Dominant (mm. 7-8)

In the last two bars, that tied-over chord is interesting because it goes from being Subdominant to Dominant simply by changing the bass. In m. 6, it's a D6(add9)(actually the very same chord as the mm. 1 and 5 but transposed up a fourth). In m. 7, though, the bass E (and loss of F#) turns it into an E7sus. The second last chord I would take as a passing Subdominant over the governing Dominant function.

That tying-over effect is pretty cool. It's like when a single note is held and given new chording, but here done with an entire four-note chord. It's a musical "melt-in-your-mouth" effect.

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It's also cool how the final E7sus becomes the dominant for the intro to the Love Theme, beginning with the Am9. And although it's routed by a subdominant bass, the third chord sounds like a G13 to me. Kinda like left hand voicing, although with the tonic of the chord retained.

Similar things going on here.

I love this kind of writing-- it really resonates with me for some reason. It's like a combination of modal jazz, organum and American modernist music (Ives, Thompson, Copeland, Harris etc.). Do you know of any others who wrote like this, any predecessors?

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It's also cool how the final E7sus becomes the dominant for the intro to the Love Theme, beginning with the Am9. And although it's routed by a subdominant bass, the third chord sounds like a G13 to me. Kinda like left hand voicing, although with the tonic of the chord retained.

I wonder if that third chord might be one of those re-interpreted situations, where we hear it as G13 first, then with the following chord it becomes Dm(add9,11), especially with the retained notes in the lower voices (I'm also hearing an E4 that's retained), possibly making it sound like pairings of the same basic chord.

I love this kind of writing-- it really resonates with me for some reason. It's like a combination of modal jazz, organum and American modernist music (Ives, Thompson, Copeland, Harris etc.). Do you know of any others who wrote like this, any predecessors?

I think you might find what you're looking for in that dissertation I mentioned. It's got literally hundreds of examples. I can send it your way if you like.

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All I know is that Barry regularly had four flutes on the Bond scores. I don't know whether or not those players doubled on saxes, or if he had the clarinettists do that (common in big bands). If so, it'd be 4 alto flutes and 2 alto saxes.

Tricky... though I love this kind of ear training.

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Me too. I'm certainly guilty of devoting more time to thinking about orchestration at the expense of thought on other musical parameters.

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Trying to work out the instrumentation here at the start of this.

I think harp one is playing the oom-pa-pa line, while harp two is doubling a cimbalom, zither or kantele an octave below, which is also doubled above by crotales (?).

Edit: listening to it again, I reckon 'harp two' is actually a harpsichord playing in octaves, which we hear more prominently later in the theme. Don't think there's any zithers or cimbaloms - just the crotales doubling the upper octave of the harpsichord.

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I hear the melody played by a harp with crotales doubling it an octave up. An upright piano (or harpsichord, hard to tell, but since the harpsichord appears later it's probably that) doubles the harp at unison but playing in 16th notes alternating with the octave above. The waltz-like accompaniment is either a really closely mic'd harp or a nylon guitar, maybe?

Nice tune.


I love this kind of writing-- it really resonates with me for some reason. It's like a combination of modal jazz, organum and American modernist music (Ives, Thompson, Copeland, Harris etc.). Do you know of any others who wrote like this, any predecessors?

I've really gotta get some of my stuff satisfactorily mocked-up and share-able.

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Would love to hear that. :)

I hear the melody played by a harp with crotales doubling it an octave up. An upright piano doubles the harp at unison but playing in 16th notes alternating with the octave above.

That's it. An upright piano, though I don't hear . The harpsichord we hear later is much closer mic'd.

The waltz-like accompaniment is either a really closely mic'd harp or a nylon guitar, maybe?

Definitely harp.

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They'd be palmed clusters, in which case they'd most likely be notated with a vertical bar in the musical staff rather than individual notes. After all, it's not the notes that matter but the overall effect.

What's for certain is that they're in a particular rhythm, so not aleatoric, which means that at least one variable is left to chance or the whim of the performer, but some kind of notated cluster in triplet rhythms.

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Palm clusters as Ludwig says, which Horner often doubles with ad libbed cluster chimes and tom toms. Great for creating a sense of industrial fury.

Here's an example of TITANIC for the scene where the water pours into the engine room, while engineers desperately try to push back the circuit breakers which keep tripping, causing the ship's lights to flicker on and off.

'The Death of Titanic' orchestrated by Don Davis.

2d3b63fd4a9477bddee87b8bdc6de0cf.jpg

4:09

And if you're wandering about the awesome moment when the ship splits in half at 4:31...

a20b840e4c82dd9b18a67f286b04fa35.jpg

94b23b1143e932faeee61b34791f24f3.jpg

Basically the the horns and trumpets play a G harmonic minor cluster, while the the winds and strings sound a cluster voiced polychordof B/G, with the upper chord (B) in first version and the lower (G) in second inversion. Both of these complexes sway up in down in parallel motion.

... but that's me. How would you analyse it, Ludwig?

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Agreed about the brass G minor harmonic scale as a cluster.

I think I would take the strings as a kind of fuzzy relationship - that is, we almost have two half-diminished seventh chords a semitone apart played at the same time:

D-F#-G#-B, and

A-D-Eb-G, which is almost A-C-Eb-G

Placing both chords in root position more easily shows the semitone relationship between the two chords:

G#-B-D-F#

A - D-Eb-G

( C )

The D is the odd note out, as it "should" have been a C to make the relationship consistent, but here it adds more bite to the sound at an appropriate moment.

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They'd be palmed clusters, in which case they'd most likely be notated with a vertical bar in the musical staff rather than individual notes. After all, it's not the notes that matter but the overall effect.

What's for certain is that they're in a particular rhythm, so not aleatoric, which means that at least one variable is left to chance or the whim of the performer, but some kind of notated cluster in triplet rhythms.

Thanks! By the way, I meant aleatoric in a pitch sense - i.e. I thought the clusters might not have a specific range, just noteheads indicating rhythm.

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Agreed about the brass G minor harmonic scale as a cluster.

I think I would take the strings as a kind of fuzzy relationship - that is, we almost have two half-diminished seventh chords a semitone apart played at the same time:

D-F#-G#-B, and

A-D-Eb-G, which is almost A-C-Eb-G

I think you've misread the accidentals on the upper chord. What I see is D#-F#-G-B although the photocopy is a little fuzzy. Further evidence is that when this chord is planed, the same intervals remain. I agree on the fuzzy relationship in relation to the brass cluster, but I see the strings as just reinforcing the important pitches of said cluster. The lowest note of the strings (A) works in tandem with the highest of the violins and winds (B) to pin down the Bb of the horn - creating an open cluster.

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I think you've misread the accidentals on the upper chord. What I see is D#-F#-G-B although the photocopy is a little fuzzy.

Well, I did say it was a "fuzzy" relaionship, didn't I? :rimshot:

But yes, I did misread it. So let's try that again...

For me, a polychord has to be audible as such, and since it just sounds like a mass of clusters, I'd be inclined to call it something else. Probably best is a scale interpretation in this case, the strings playing a G major harmonic scale (all but the C is present), which grates against the G minor of the brass with the B-Bb conflict - a true fuzzy relationship. So, it creates even more bite at this pivotal moment, especially with B being the highest note.

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Probably best is a scale interpretation in this case, the strings playing a G major harmonic scale (all but the C is present), which grates against the G minor of the brass with the B-Bb conflict - a true fuzzy relationship. So, it creates even more bite at this pivotal moment, especially with B being the highest note.

I like that. An alternative that crossed my mind would be reading it as a hexatonic cluster - one built on augmented seconds. The only missing note is Bb, and that's provided by the brass. So secundal in a loose sense.

I actually found one reference to 'hexatonic cluster' in Bartók's Mikrokosmos: Genesis, Pedagogy, and Style by Benjamin Suchoff.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aFiPFWVDMYEC&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=hexatonic+cluster&source=bl&ots=dSc6uLVqwt&sig=6e-7nHD5bPDpL1xOheXvHeB-8O0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P43JU_TGA6KN7QbM3ICIBA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hexatonic%20cluster&f=false

But that doesn't contradict your interpretation, just provide another layer of analysis.

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Yes, I think we could combine the two views and say that the hexatonic scale is a subset of the G major/minor harmonic complex, as though Horner was thinking of how to derive different types of secundal harmony (as a diatonic scale and a hexatonic scale) from one basic superset.

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Could anyone help me decipher the harmonies in this extremely badass Alex North cue from CLEOPATRA?



Unfortunately I only have the first page from North's sketches. Gives you an idea though.

30m2_Denoument_Bars_1_4.jpg

I believe this is Anthony's Theme. Here's another single page from an early cue - the exotic harmonisation is similar but different.

27m1_27m2_They_Told_Me_You_Were_Dead_Bar



@0:27

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Processing the cue through Sonic Visualiser...

I think the reason why North lists 7 trombones is that although the first two chords are just 6 voices (a triad doubled an octave above) - very soon after they become 7 voiced, with the 7th trombone playing added 2nds/9ths on the upper octave.

I hear the pedal as C for a long stretch, followed Ab, F, E, then D for another stretch, finally to an Ab.

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Any luck with Sonic Visualizer? I'm running it through as well. Also going to try EQing to boost the low brass and cut out the rest.

It's not much more than you've already realized, but it does seem to be mostly minor and extended chords over dissonant pedals.

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I've changed the third chord. I definitely hear a major seventh in there.

I'm pretty sure the next chord in the sequence is the same, the dminadd2, but I think the top voice goes up to a G on the intervening eighth-note chord. However I am very stupid and can't figure out how to add more measures.

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Yes, I think we could combine the two views and say that the hexatonic scale is a subset of the G major/minor harmonic complex, as though Horner was thinking of how to derive different types of secundal harmony (as a diatonic scale and a hexatonic scale) from one basic superset.

Mark, do you have good papers in Secundal Harmony - listing all of the occurrences like with the Auvil?

Ps. When you've got time could you give the North cue a listen?

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Am I the only one who feels like the brass in Heartwood isn't the usual lineup? Sounds richer... tubens/euphoniums?

Also Sharky, do you love the "Agent Smith Cluster" as much as I do? I have a feeling you do. One of the most perfect marriages of music to a character.

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