Howard Shore's The Battle of the Five Armies (Hobbit Part 3)

[Incanus 5,714]

the awful edit of Treason of Isengard, the removal of In Dreams' coda fading into May It Be...

What?

What, what?

The removal of the choir there compared to the full recording (on the OST) is awful. I forgive the film edit for this, but not something called Complete Recordings.

Thats not really what I would call an edit.

And it is following the film version of the piece by removing the choir. I think the idea of giving us the composer's original intentions was just taking its first steps with FotR and on the other hand Shore and his crew must have wanted to give the fans the score as closely as possible to the version heard in the movie. Plus there was always the idea of not repeating material and since the choral versions of those tracks had choir they went with the film versions without it.

Sorry, but the first part is BS. What steps do you need to take to arrive at "original intentions"? The original intention is the music as recorded. Always. Everything else is apologetic.

If the piece with the originally intended choir was in any shape or form not wanted by the COMPOSER, he wouldn't have put it in full form on the OST. Period. The same goes for everything else.

An editorially created "version" is not an "alternate"; it wasn't newly recorded, it wasn't newly written, for all we know Shore didn't even have a say in the editing process, and such an edit has no justification to appear on a "Complete Recordings" set. Period.

I stand by my assumption, that the CR of FotR is the originally planned isolated score for the EE of the film, which explains why it's so close to the film mix, and only with TTT did the true "let's present these pieces as recorded and remix them" process start, because no isolated score was ever planned after FotR.

Well we can whinge and whine, cringe and grind on this forever or move on and edit our own little version with original intention to the best of our ability from all the available material. Shore approved the FotR CR and included those edits. I doubt there were forced hands or too many constraints on how to present the music. And yeah I agree that it is unfortunate that not all of his original ideas were consistently presented on the set. Something like the Weathertop wraith world music and the Ford of Bruinen fanfares (also on the OST) were there but e.g. Gollum's theme in Shadow of the Past scene (on the OST), the music for the corruption of Isengard or the original chanting female chorus for the Ford of Bruinen was not, though they were late released on the Rarities as was the original Prologue. By the strictest way of thinking those are the versions that should have been on the CR if they had been compiling the score by "composer's original intentions".

I think the remix in FotR balanced the orchestra and choir a bit too well which in the process drowned the choir at some points. And no I do not mean the completely ousted material from the Nazgûl passages up to the Weathertop sequence, which was just removing the separately recorded choir. Also the Seduction of the Ring theme in The Pass of Caradhras is barely audible for example. Perhaps it is closer to the film mix, I don't know as I have not made a comparison. I have listened to the DVD 5.1. mix once ages ago so I can't remember whether the balance between choir and orchestra was better there. TTT is not without its strange mixing choices. E.g. the first statement of the Way to Mordor Theme on that solo horn is about as distant and quiet as can be. I always have to strain my ears for it.

And until someone who truly was part of the production comes and says FotR CR was originally some kind of trial run for an isolated music track for DVD, I can't quite get behind the idea.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[MedigoScan 324]

well whatever Hobbit CR/Rarities CD is clearly coming (shut up)

it better have the film edit of the Frying Pan/Fire/Eagle Rescue scene (minus the tracked bits)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

I was hoping for a conversation about Radagast's material, but never mind.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

I stand by my assumption, that the CR of FotR is the originally planned isolated score for the EE of the film

I doubt it, because if it had been indeed the planned isolated score, then it wouldn't have included any unused music, yet it did (as Inky mentioned, the wraith world bit in Weathertop, or the Give Up The Halfling fanfare).

We don't know that, and if the additions made were not planned as a bonus for the EE. It could very well be.

Also, @ Incanus, Shore approved the CR, but we don't know if he approved the film version, which then ended up on the CR. It's the same with the RotK live projection events, where Shore opted for the film edit of Crack of Doom performed live.

All I know is, there is a notable difference between FotR and the two other CRs. And there is no satisfactory answer as to why.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Because they learned from their misakes and made TTT and RotK better?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

You forgot to use the screaming Homer Simpson picture when you made that post BB. Hence it lost some of its power.

[gkgyver 1,645]

All I know is that it can't be that something is produced and advertised as complete, and then Faleel can make a better and more complete release.

[Incanus 5,714]

All I know is that it can't be that something is produced and advertised as complete, and then Faleel can make a better and more complete release.

You are making the FotR CR out to be something akin to the horrible mess of TPM Ultimate Edition, which it isn't, not by a long shot. Plus your complete would truly mean that they hand over the recording sessions for you to cherry pick your favourite takes.

Again I am not saying the set is perfect but it is hardly as atrocious as you seem to make it out to be.

And yes Fal has made some mean edits on this stuff.

[Bilbo 3,709]

I don't even think TPM UE is even that bug a mess tbh.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND BILBO SKYWALKER?!!!

[Jay 37,352]

Because they learned from their misakes and made TTT and RotK better?

This.

[Barnald 365]

Do we think there's any realistic chance of Fellowship being redone? I can't see it myself, but I suppose one never knows.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,352]

The FOTR CR set is perfect.

A rare gem of a film score release.

Haha, good one SUH!

[Incanus 5,714]

The poor fellow is still in denial!

[Bilbo 3,709]

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND BILBO SKYWALKER?!!!

... Possibly.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Verily I would say! Verily yea!

[Faleel 5,346]

I personally don't think the FOTR CR will be redone, if it is, it will be in some sort of re-release in along with Hobbit CR's in a 6-score set.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

All I know is that it can't be that something is produced and advertised as complete, and then Faleel can make a better and more complete release.

You are making the FotR CR out to be something akin to the horrible mess of TPM Ultimate Edition, which it isn't, not by a long shot. Plus your complete would truly mean that they hand over the recording sessions for you to cherry pick your favourite takes.

Again I am not saying the set is perfect but it is hardly as atrocious as you seem to make it out to be.

And yes Fal has made some mean edits on this stuff.

I'm not comparing it to PM UE. You did first. I'm comparing it to the benchmark set by TTT and RotK. As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

I'm not talking about doing a CR with dozens of alternates, you're completely exaggerating. Pieces that appear in the film, with no edits to the recording. That's not much to ask from something that is also advertised as such.

Also, if the source for it was not the iso score, what do you think the source was? Do you honestly think they would go to the original, unaltered recordings, then remix them to duplicate the film mix exactly, and then hack them apart to duplicate the film edits exactly? That would be a terrible way to spend resources, after all, you don't polish a historic score to then hack it apart, and I don't buy that this happened.

You can always sugarcoat it and say it was a creative choice or some BS, fact is that that "creative choice" changed quickly within weeks.

If it was rights issues, time issues, money issues or else, I don't know, but something went on there that we don't know about.

[Faleel 5,346]

As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

I assume you are referring to FOTR?

Strider.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

I assume you are referring to FOTR?

Strider.

What do you mean? The scene in the Prancing Pony in Strider's room is also an editorial mess. Even the bit tracked and edited in from Saruman The White was kept.

[Faleel 5,346]

As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

I assume you are referring to FOTR?

Strider.

What do you mean? The scene in the Prancing Pony in Strider's room is also an editorial mess. Even the bit tracked and edited in from Saruman The White was kept.

0:42 was edited in the film.

If it was rights issues, time issues, money issues or else, I don't know, but something went on there that we don't know about.

It's just that they weren't sure how to present the music for the fans. Simple as that.

Well, Jim Ware did say that at first they used the DVD film stems as a base first.

[gkgyver 1,645]

If it was rights issues, time issues, money issues or else, I don't know, but something went on there that we don't know about.

It's just that they weren't sure how to present the music for the fans. Simple as that.

At first, they probably thought the fans wanted to listen to music just as it is in the film, hence why they kept the tracked music. Then they changed their minds/Shore wanted to change the approach for the TTT and ROTK CRs. No need to look further than that.

Eh, no.

This wasn't some random commercial product to appeal to the masses who know nothing about film music. This was a project by people who wanted to make these scores available because of their impact and legacy, and also FOR FANS. Doug freaking Adams was involved. You're trying to tell me they thought fans want edit jobs? They can't possibly be this stupid.

What would even have changed their mind? The FotR CR was universally loved.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,352]

SUH, it's more than a few seconds. You've got blinders on if you think the FOTR CR is complete. It simply isn't.

Original music Shore recorded, that got replaced in the final cut of the film with tracked music, is still unreleased (and the FOTR CR includes that tracked music in its place).

These are cold, hard facts, not opinions.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Incanus 5,714]

All I know is that it can't be that something is produced and advertised as complete, and then Faleel can make a better and more complete release.

You are making the FotR CR out to be something akin to the horrible mess of TPM Ultimate Edition, which it isn't, not by a long shot. Plus your complete would truly mean that they hand over the recording sessions for you to cherry pick your favourite takes.

Again I am not saying the set is perfect but it is hardly as atrocious as you seem to make it out to be.

And yes Fal has made some mean edits on this stuff.

I'm not comparing it to PM UE. You did first. I'm comparing it to the benchmark set by TTT and RotK. As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

I'm not talking about doing a CR with dozens of alternates, you're completely exaggerating. Pieces that appear in the film, with no edits to the recording. That's not much to ask from something that is also advertised as such.

Also, if the source for it was not the iso score, what do you think the source was? Do you honestly think they would go to the original, unaltered recordings, then remix them to duplicate the film mix exactly, and then hack them apart to duplicate the film edits exactly? That would be a terrible way to spend resources, after all, you don't polish a historic score to then hack it apart, and I don't buy that this happened.

You can always sugarcoat it and say it was a creative choice or some BS, fact is that that "creative choice" changed quickly within weeks.

If it was rights issues, time issues, money issues or else, I don't know, but something went on there that we don't know about.

Keep grinding your teeth by all means Georg. It happened and you can always try to turn it into some kind of conspiracy and take away the blame from the composer who approved it.

[Faleel 5,346]

SUH, it's more than a few seconds. You've got blinders on if you think the FOTR CR is complete. It simply isn't.

I realise it's not 'complete' from reading this forum, but I don't think we're missing much. Maybe we can compile a list (put it in a thread)?

I already did...

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23818

[Jay 37,352]

Yup, that's perfect. SUH, watch all those videos and you'll learn about Shores intentions that aren't represented on the CR

[Faleel 5,346]

Yup, that's perfect. SUH, watch all those videos and you'll learn about Shores intentions that aren't represented on the CR

The link I posted was to the analysis thread.

Here is the link Jay is referring to SUH:

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23525&page=1

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,346]

Fixed the link SUH.

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23525&page=1

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

All I know is that it can't be that something is produced and advertised as complete, and then Faleel can make a better and more complete release.

You are making the FotR CR out to be something akin to the horrible mess of TPM Ultimate Edition, which it isn't, not by a long shot. Plus your complete would truly mean that they hand over the recording sessions for you to cherry pick your favourite takes.

Again I am not saying the set is perfect but it is hardly as atrocious as you seem to make it out to be.

And yes Fal has made some mean edits on this stuff.

I'm not comparing it to PM UE. You did first. I'm comparing it to the benchmark set by TTT and RotK. As I recall, not one in-cue film edit was restored for the CR, there were simply a few bits restored that were dialed out in the film.

I'm not talking about doing a CR with dozens of alternates, you're completely exaggerating. Pieces that appear in the film, with no edits to the recording. That's not much to ask from something that is also advertised as such.

Also, if the source for it was not the iso score, what do you think the source was? Do you honestly think they would go to the original, unaltered recordings, then remix them to duplicate the film mix exactly, and then hack them apart to duplicate the film edits exactly? That would be a terrible way to spend resources, after all, you don't polish a historic score to then hack it apart, and I don't buy that this happened.

You can always sugarcoat it and say it was a creative choice or some BS, fact is that that "creative choice" changed quickly within weeks.

If it was rights issues, time issues, money issues or else, I don't know, but something went on there that we don't know about.

Keep grinding your teeth by all means Georg. It happened and you can always try to turn it into some kind of conspiracy and take away the blame from the composer who approved it.

Whether Shore is to blame or something else, it doesn't matter. FotR CR is not a very good representation of the composer's original intentions. It's a very good representation of what's in the film, yes, but that's not what these sets were meant to do and not, again, what they're sold as.

The tracked portions are not excusable.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

The sets weren't advertised as being 'original intentions'?

Oh come on!

They are called COMPLETE RECORDINGS. And that's exactly what FotR is NOT. Not by a long shot.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

How much music is actually missing from FOTR CR (in minutes)?

It's already missing music from the OST, that's more than enough indication, and the rest of the edits are obvious.

Do you actually believe what's on the CR is as recorded?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Faleel 5,346]

Everything on the CR was recorded.

Uh...duh....

How much music is actually missing from FOTR CR (in minutes)?

Over 3 minutes missing from Keep It Secret, Keep It Safe and A Conspiracy Unmasked alone.

[SafeUnderHill 205]