Find Me The Classical Precedent for ______ Cue/Score

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

2 hours ago, Sharky said:

 

I've just just scan-listened through the bulk of Ligeti and Penderecki's later works, and I can't find any of these accumulating diatonic clusters. There's some gristliness that resembles Shore in Penderecki's first two symphonies and some expanding chromatic clusters, but nada.

 

I'm not familiar with Rautavaara. Whereabouts should I start?

 

Bartók's an interesting suggestion. Maybe some of the string quartets?

 

Totally possible that Ligeti and Penderecki never did it in that pyramidal fashion, but I could have sworn I'd heard it at least in a later Penderecki symphony.  Thought the 7th but I couldn't find it.

 

Rautavaara I think did it in one of the piano concertos, there's at least one in which he abuses clusters in general.  Some choral work too that I can't remember.  Will have to search for that as well.

 

I'm thinking of the quartets for Bartók but also some early piano pieces, I want to say, but am not sure.  It might be an early Xenakis piece I'm thinking of.

 

Can't forget Henry Cowell too, though again, he may never have "melodicized" growing clusters in this fashion.

 

Now I'm not sure the choral piece is by Rautavaara.  It's from the 60s I think, was introduced to it by a teacher.  Could have been Nørgård?  This is gonna bug me.  It embodied this really fully, sort of proto Whitacre.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

One could also consider this dramaturgy.  The cluster is maximum tension and the composer wants to gradually increase the tension (though over just a second) because he is mirroring the cops mind..."that's impossible".  The cop realizes this by the evidence presented over a brief moment which the composer is mirroring but by using techniques that are centuries old.

Oh absolutely. As with all of these gestures, it serves a dual function: one rhetorical/dramaturgic (intensification) and the other formal (a quasi-cadence - like Grey outlined above). What I'm really look at is the etymology of the technique itself. The Debussy excerpt sounds closer to the mark than the Rebel as the notes are held as it ascends the scale.

 

1 hour ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

 

Can't forget Henry Cowell too, though again, he may never have "melodicized" growing clusters in this fashion.

 

From Henry Cowell's New Musical Resources (brilliant book BTW):

 

One way is to play the tones of a cluster in quick succession, holding them as they are played. This is a a cluster of essentially a different kind from one fixed, for although it is possible to regard he movement simply as a means of arriving at a fixed cluster of a larger interval, it is also possible, and specially interesting, to regard the cluster as one of changing size, like an angle who sides are projected to greater length. There are three way of thus spreading a cluster: to begin with the lowest tone and go up; another to begin with the highest tone and go down; and the third to begin with the middle of the cluster and spread it in both directions at once.

 

Quote

Now I'm not sure the choral piece is by Rautavaara.  It's from the 60s I think, was introduced to it by a teacher.  Could have been Nørgård?  This is gonna bug me.  It embodied this really fully, sort of proto Whitacre.

 

This work is from two decades later, and I think I've posted it before in the classical recommendation thread, but what about Schnittke? The resemblance to what Whitacre and Shore would later write is uncanny. Not just the clusters but confluence of other things--the parallel fourths in the tenors and basses could be straight out of Khazad-dûm, and the austere minor triads bring to mind The End of All Things.

 

 

Not choral, but these two early New Simplicity works from Gorecki and Kilar are worth bringing to the table.

 

 

 

[Jilal 569]

 

This playful allegro passage sounds a lot like some of Jerry Fielding's underscore for Scorpio. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a corresponding clip of Fielding's borrowing.

[Saxbabe 28]

I love and adore this thread! 

 

This is so incredibly gorgeous, wow. Have heard a few snippets of Schinittke before, but not this. Would definitely agree with the below!

 

On 5/23/2017 at 11:16 PM, Sharky said:

From Henry Cowell's New Musical Resources (brilliant book BTW):

 

One way is to play the tones of a cluster in quick succession, holding them as they are played. This is a a cluster of essentially a different kind from one fixed, for although it is possible to regard he movement simply as a means of arriving at a fixed cluster of a larger interval, it is also possible, and specially interesting, to regard the cluster as one of changing size, like an angle who sides are projected to greater length. There are three way of thus spreading a cluster: to begin with the lowest tone and go up; another to begin with the highest tone and go down; and the third to begin with the middle of the cluster and spread it in both directions at once.

 

 

This work is from two decades later, and I think I've posted it before in the classical recommendation thread, but what about Schnittke? The resemblance to what Whitacre and Shore would later write is uncanny. Not just the clusters but confluence of other things--the parallel fourths in the tenors and basses could be straight out of Khazad-dûm, and the austere minor triads bring to mind The End of All Things.

 

 

 

 

My (first) contribution:

 

Check this out from POA, then listen to the finale of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony below (ironically, starting at 1:40 in each is best to hear the affinity) -

 

 

 

Mostly in the woodwinds and general rhythm/flavor. but undeniable (though likely unintentional) influence.

 

Several others in mind I may post sometime (some being obvious well-known temp track situations) - will have to revisit this thread soon

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

Not a score cue, but being a parody piece there's a great deal of Bach and Mozart references/pastiche and I was wondering if anyone could help me point the specific lifts the piece is making. Particularly the end at 2:34 with those gorgeous thirds

 

 

For me this is a gorgeous piece on its own, but finding the specific references would be a lot of fun.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

 

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

How about this one?

 

 

Particularly that incredible all-out brass ending

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

* I'd love to know too. @karelm ?

 

On 1/16/2018 at 3:00 PM, Muad'Dib said:

 

 

The swaying, hypnotic figure is highly reminiscent of the opening to Stravinsky's Nightgale. 

 

 

[karelm 2,913]

13 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

How about this one?

 

 

Particularly that incredible all-out brass ending

I kind of hear this in English elegiac pastoral music such as Finzi's "The Fall of the Leaf" as it reaches for a climax at 8:46 and then starts to die away.  A really beautiful piece so be sure to listen to the whole thing.

and Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead dies irae climax (give this a few minutes because the Rach is reaching one of his long lined climaxes that he's so famous for):

But remember that the late Maurice Murphy was the principal trumpet on all six LSO star wars films and is a huge legend in brass circles because of his big full tone so some of this is letting Maurice do his thing at that big climax but stylistically I find it similar to the Finzi elegy and Rach's Isle.

9 hours ago, Sharky said:

* I'd love to know too. @karelm ?

 

 

The swaying, hypnotic figure is highly reminiscent of the opening to Stravinsky's Nightgale. 

 

 

...which I believe is Stravinsky in full on French mode ala Debussy:

 

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

I kind of hear this in English elegiac pastoral music such as Finzi's "The Fall of the Leaf" as it reaches for a climax at 8:46 and then starts to die away.  A really beautiful piece so be sure to listen to the whole thing.

 

Astonishing.

[karelm 2,913]

Any classical precedence for this? 

 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

On 6/6/2018 at 12:52 AM, karelm said:

Any classical precedence for this? 

 

 

I'd say the closest antecedent would probably be Herrmann's Vertigo prelude. It shares the contrary motion triplet arpeggios and the same unsettling feeling of creeping inertia or frozen time.

 

 

Here are a few passages from classical works that remind me of the Goldsmith cue, some more obscure than others.

 

 

^ I know the last one's a bit obvious, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

There were some key Glass pieces already written by this time too which Jerry may have been familiar with in those V'ger sequence arpeggios.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

You mean like Satyagraha?

 

 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Music in 12 Parts too.

[publicist 4,643]

Vaughan-Williams's Sinfonia Antarctica still looms most impressively over this. Vertigo licks notwithstanding.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

And then there's there clear similarly between the opening subject of the Scherzo from RVW's 4th Symphony and the Kingon theme.

 

 

I remember reading somewhere that Jerry called ST:TMP his "Vaughan-Williams score."

[publicist 4,643]

Not quite as obvious as the 1:1 homage that is Malagant's theme from 'First Knight' (at least geographically sound)

 

 

[Loert 2,511]

Who can find me the classical precedent for the wind here:

 

 

In particular, the descending, jumping fifths figure of the first two bars.

[karelm 2,913]

On 6/20/2018 at 12:13 PM, Loert said:

Who can find me the classical precedent for the wind here:

 

 

In particular, the descending, jumping fifths figure of the first two bars.

But isn't that all over Ravel and Prokofiev such as this

and this from Rimsky Korsakov:

or this...