Find Me The Classical Precedent for ______ Cue/Score

[scorpio187 0]

What is (are) the classical antecedent(s) of the following cues?

https://youtu.be/j350yAcTWpI?t=33s

The first 30 seconds only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tidfKvONUGI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQb0i3GZAL4

https://youtu.be/ZzA9OUw9Xu8?t=3m37s

https://youtu.be/eqFRi2H7594?list=PLC7E29C288C0146D6

The first 30 seconds only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5tRtGCh2Cs&list=PLC7E29C288C0146D6&index=9

Rhumba and Foxtrot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Tl8sjdMMQ

Dies Irae, the first track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcp5jrDAlO0

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Most of those don't seem to refer to any particular earlier work to me, but I always thought this one was obvious and intentional:

https://youtu.be/j350yAcTWpI?t=33s

[scorpio187 0]

Interesting. I assume you mean the descending/ascending 16 note motif? I thought he was referencing Prokofiev there. Some of you may noticed how Goldenthal favours the wittiness and sardonic nature of his music. In this particular case his Two-Face theme was most likely influenced by The Dance of the Knight piece. The militaristic style intro was influenced by Holst's Mars obviously. I wonder what Marcus Paus could tells us about it.

[karelm 2,903]

Most of those don't seem to refer to any particular earlier work to me, but I always thought this one was obvious and intentional:

https://youtu.be/j350yAcTWpI?t=33s

Well wait a second, this is an example of a musically educated and astute composer using various elements but making it his own. You get Dias Irae with Corigliano's Clarinet Concerto in the last excerpt for example. He is taking elements from multiple sources...big band, Prokofiev, Herrmann, Wagner, Corigliano then throws it into a blender pruned with exceptional musicianship and gets something very uniquely Goldenthal. He's one my favorites and is eclectic and gifted.

[Loert 2,510]

Can anyone find a classical precedent for the section between 0:30 and 0:36 of this track:

In particular the prominent usage of percussion and the sliding tuttis.

I'm not really sure if it's that "classical" in the first place, but it's a section of music that's intrigued me for some time.

[scorpio187 0]

Most of those don't seem to refer to any particular earlier work to me, but I always thought this one was obvious and intentional:

https://youtu.be/j350yAcTWpI?t=33s

Well wait a second, this is an example of a musically educated and astute composer using various elements but making it his own. You get Dias Irae with Corigliano's Clarinet Concerto in the last excerpt for example. He is taking elements from multiple sources...big band, Prokofiev, Herrmann, Wagner, Corigliano then throws it into a blender pruned with exceptional musicianship and gets something very uniquely Goldenthal. He's one my favorites and is eclectic and gifted.

I think that is self-explanatory. I was interested in particular examples like yours with the Clarinet concerto. That's a good one, btw.

[karelm 2,903]

Can anyone find a classical precedent for the section between 0:30 and 0:36 of this track:

In particular the prominent usage of percussion and the sliding tuttis.

I'm not really sure if it's that "classical" in the first place, but it's a section of music that's intrigued me for some time.

You find this sort of stuff in Mexican and Latin american orchestral music.

Example, check this out (Revueltas's Sensemaya):

https://youtu.be/aJxd0nIY1oA?t=291

Not the best recording but it includes the full score so you get the sliding strings and heavy jungle percussion.

This performance is good visuals to see the percussive kinetic energy, but no full score (start at around 4:20 and listen through to the end).

Also, lots of this in Villa Lobos (such as Forest of Amazon).

[Loert 2,510]

Thank you karelm, that Revueltas sounds great!

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Well wait a second, this is an example of a musically educated and astute composer using various elements but making it his own. You get Dias Irae with Corigliano's Clarinet Concerto in the last excerpt for example. He is taking elements from multiple sources...big band, Prokofiev, Herrmann, Wagner, Corigliano then throws it into a blender pruned with exceptional musicianship and gets something very uniquely Goldenthal. He's one my favorites and is eclectic and gifted.

Oh I'm not blaming him or anything. It's just always seemed to be clear to me that this was probably (?) an intentional parallel.

There's a bit of Poltergeist in Interview With the Vampire that's perhaps a bit more questionable but also not far off. I always thought Goldenthal sometimes just had fun taking someone else's theme and twisting it horribly to fit his own unique ways.

[Jilal 569]

Could anyone find me the classical precedent(s) for Williams's The Ultimate War? I'm thinking Prokofiev, maybe Tchaikovsky, but I'm not all too familiar with their repertoire.

[karelm 2,903]

Could anyone find me the classical precedent(s) for Williams's The Ultimate War? I'm thinking Prokofiev, maybe Tchaikovsky, but I'm not all too familiar with their repertoire.

I think the last movement of Shostakovich's Leningrad symphony is a stylistic counterpart (resolute vanquishing of evil):

http://youtu.be/pLqQDvUyYTw

And especially this one too...

http://youtu.be/m8uG42u4KdY

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

There's gotta be some precedent to Fighting for Dough from Far and Away, right? I mean, I know it's like an Irish dance, but a lot of the score seems to be very based on Elmer Bernstein's The Field, but not this particular cue. I've always loved the energy it has, and the hitpoints Williams takes advantage of are a lot of fun. The scene itself is a blast, as well.

 

 

[karelm 2,903]

I love musical etymology...basically searching for the precedence of a musical technique. 

 

In JW's Violin Concerto, I always found the pedal B against various distant chords to be very exciting.  (29:52 to 30:07)

 

I thought it was interesting that in Prokofiev's Symphony No. 4, first movement, you have these intensely dissonant chords over a pedal of C (4 horns in octaves) as the orchestra pounds away any chord that does not fit.  Like C# minor, D#7, well listen for yourself here (8:39 to 8:57):

 

 

And just now, I was listening to Rimsky-Korsakov's Le Coq d'Or (movement 3) which was written during Prokofiev's formative student years of 1907-8.  Here there is a D minor pedal against various unrelated chords yielding to a trumpet fanfare at resolution. Do you find this to be a parallel that Prokofiev adapted and that JW further adapted each into his own version? 

 

 

In each case, they use this as a dramatic device to maximize tension before veering off into unexpected direction.  In the case of Prokofiev, it suddenly jumps to hyperactive manic mode after the searing drama.  For Williams, it's to go from drama to jarring serenity but a great example of this dramatic technique.

 

 

[Loert 2,510]

^ That pedal technique reminds me a little of trumpets in the opening of Tchaikovsky's 4th:

 

 

It's not as convincing as your examples because I don't even think there's a dissonance anywhere, but it does sound very unstable.

 

 

Btw, I think I stumbled on the precedent of "Forward to Time Past" from Prisoner of Azkaban; the marching insects from Ravel's L'enfant et les sortileges:

 

 

 

It's even got that same "ticking" sound on beats 2 and 4 in the high register; with Williams it's string harmonics (starting at 0:34), in the Ravel it's the flute. Also, the "keks" in the Ravel sound a bit like the sampled, ascending strings starting at 0:52. There's a whole lot of other similarities.

 

So now, what is the classical precedent for the Ravel...?

[karelm 2,903]

Very, very interesting Loert. I hear it too. I haven't heard POA in a very long time so need to reacquaint myself with it but that is some very interesting propulsive music.  I also believe that at around the time of his death in 1908, Rimsky Korsakov was considered the most important heir of the tradition.  He was very much influenced by Ravel at the time and we hear this in early Stravinsky (Petrushka, Firebird, etc.)  This was a very pivotal time in Russian music as the Glazunov stile went out of fashion and the more exotic European Debussy/Ravel/Rimsky-Korsakov/Stravinsky was in style. 

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

How about this one?

 

 

[karelm 2,903]

How about Greensleeves?

 

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

How 'bout Hatching Baby Raptor?

[Loert 2,510]

2 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

How 'bout Hatching Baby Raptor?

 

It's not terribly close, but the harp accompaniment reminds me a little of this piano etude:

 

 

I too would quite like to know where he might have gotten the texture and harmony from. It sounds quite jazzy to me.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I've been a Horner binge, and was thinking about the lineage of this mode of writing that reocurrs in is writing. I think I've brought it up before in the context of other scores (because I've got a real fondness for this sound), but it's essentially two melodic lines that move in contrary motion.Very stark and beautiful, with a heavy usage of minor 2nd/minor 9th/major 7th dissonances, and perfect 5ths serving a quasi-credential role.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I reckon it's a very American thing. The Perfect Storm example especially is pure Copland.

As for Hatching Baby Raptor, I think that's a seminal example of something that's very particular to Williams, really innovative language. It's Williams Third Stream.

[KK 3,307]

That deliberate mode is a very Pärt thing as well. Tintinnabulation is an example that comes to mind.

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

What might be a predecessor to the "loosely related minor harmonies" of the Pity of Gollum and Gollum's Song?

[Jilal 569]

7 hours ago, Gnome in Plaid said:

What might be a predecessor to the "loosely related minor harmonies" of the Pity of Gollum and Gollum's Song?

 

I've found many of Philip Glass's progressions to be very Shore-esque, but I assume you're looking for earlier examples?

[Loert 2,510]

7 hours ago, Gnome in Plaid said:

What might be a predecessor to the "loosely related minor harmonies" of the Pity of Gollum and Gollum's Song?

 

I think it was The Five who pioneered these kinds of progressions:

 

 

which is just the Imperial March/Pity of Gollum progression "glued together" to create a kind of circle of thirds.

 

A major rather than minor example is Dvorak's New World Symphony:

 

 

This all stems from Wagner's "harmonic wanderings":

 

 

[Jilal 569]

Fascinating, @LampPost. I never knew that kind of m3/M3-based progression could be found in Rimsky-Korsakov's writing.

[Loert 2,510]

Indeed! I'm trying to recall if it was used by someone else from the Five, but I don't know...

 

I just remembered though that the same progression was used by Wagner in Das Rheingold, when the dwarf Mime tells Loge about how his brother, Alberich, had instructed him to smith a magical helmet from the stolen Rhinemaidens gold, to make him more powerful:

At ~1.20.32

[Loert 2,510]

4:31 - 4:39, 4:48 - 4:55, 6:06 - 6:09

 

What's the classical precedent for the background "jingling"? Basically sounds like a kid bashing a glockenspiel, though it has motivic utility (e.g. horns at 6:22).

[karelm 2,903]

30 minutes ago, Loert said:

4:31 - 4:39, 4:48 - 4:55, 6:06 - 6:09

 

What's the classical precedent for the background "jingling"? Basically sounds like a kid bashing a glockenspiel, though it has motivic utility (e.g. horns at 6:22).

 

Many Latin American composers use jungle percussion sounds in their orchestral works such as Silvestre Revueltas' Night of the Mayas from 1937.

 

and David Maslanka:

 

[Loert 2,510]

19 hours ago, karelm said:

 

Many Latin American composers use jungle percussion sounds in their orchestral works such as Silvestre Revueltas' Night of the Mayas from 1937.

 

Hmm, I guess it is a "tribal" borrowing then, which makes sense of course. I actually had a mild obsession with Night of the Mayas a couple of years back - I think it's an incredibly effective piece of music. The strings at 21:22 strike me as the sort of thing Williams might write.  

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

What about the delightully sinister The Temple of Doom?

[Loert 2,510]

13 hours ago, Muad'Dib said:

What about the delightully sinister The Temple of Doom?

 

Might be some Penderecki in there...

 

 

[karelm 2,903]

What about the JW boom tiss?  What is the classical precedent for it?

 

Like this one and a million of his other scores:

 

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

On 4/22/2017 at 11:38 AM, karelm said:

What about the JW boom tiss?  What is the classical precedent for it?

 

Like this one and a million of his other scores:

 

I think Mussorgsky used it, or something similar in "Night on Bald Mountain."  For the most part I think it comes from more of a pop/rock tradition (basic drum rudiment).

[Mephariel 451]

What about Time from Inception? I always wonder if there is a classical piece similar to that because it so opposite of most classical pieces. 

[justaguy 68]

2 hours ago, Mephariel said:

What about Time from Inception? I always wonder if there is a classical piece similar to that because it so opposite of most classical pieces. 

Don't know about classical precedent, but Zimmer was surely ripping himself off to some degree.

 

 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

The architectural precedent is the baroque chaconne/passacaglia form which he uses a number of times to great effect.  No ripping off of oneself involved.  

[Muad'Dib 1,801]

Since we're talking about it on Mr. Breathmask's thread, how about the unused ending of The Saving Dart? 

[Will 2,215]

The following time-stamped technique is heard so much in modern trailer and film music...

 

 

 

... yet for me it still packs an incredible punch of excitement.

 

When did music like this originate? Very recently, or longer ago than I realized?

[karelm 2,903]

4 hours ago, Will said:

The following time-stamped technique is heard so much in modern trailer and film music...

 

... yet for me it still packs an incredible punch of excitement.

 

When did music like this originate? Very recently, or longer ago than I realized?

I think it borrows something from classic Westerns like Moross's Big Country (1958)

 

which owes a debt to the adventurous expansive Americana music of Aaron Copeland Billy the Kid (1938) and Rodeo (1942) especially at 1:12

 

Which could be further traced to German stage music:

 

Basically major arpeggios over bold chords.

[Will 2,215]

Very cool @karelm. Just this morning, before checking JWFan, I realized, "Wild West!" and I wondered if Copland had used this. But I never guessed the Wagner connection! (mostly because I'm not that familiar with him) 

[karelm 2,903]

19 minutes ago, Will said:

Very cool @karelm. Just this morning, before checking JWFan, I realized, "Wild West!" and I wondered if Copland had used this. But I never guessed the Wagner connection! (mostly because I'm not that familiar with him) 

 

I think the German connection is a little more complicated.  Remember Wagner and his obsession with Gesamtkunstwerk (an all embracing work of art that wasn't just pure music but merged space (instruments throughout the hall), story, acting, staging, singing, special effects like lighting and hiding the orchestra from view, etc.) which some would argue a theatrical experience is a modern version of this.  Wagner was deeply influential on the early film composers many of whom were Austrian/German transplants too.  So in a way it might not be the Copeland was taking from Germany, but that there was a long path back to Germany and early film took that as its starting point.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

More than anything, the Beauty and the Beast passage reminded me of this, which is Puccinian lyricism melded with Copland's Americana.

 

 

[Will 2,215]

Woah, that Morricone cue is great, @Sharky! I'd never heard that score before (or all that much Morricone in general, really). 

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

Change that ASAP

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Has anyone traced the origins of Howard Shore and Don Davis's pyramidal diatonic clusters AKA the "Rising Chords of Doom"?

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Too functional to be a real cluster I think, but in my limited knowledge of the repertoire, this is chronologically the first appearance of something like that.

 

 

It carries through Bartók, Rautavaara, Ligeti and Pendercki - in the case of the latter two, I'm thinking more of their later tonal works where their use of such devices stands out more against a less fully sound massy background, almost as cadences/climaxes/punctuation as Davis and Shore do.

 

It ultimately ends up in the Pärt, Górecki, and Tavener realm.

[karelm 2,903]

5 hours ago, Sharky said:

Has anyone traced the origins of Howard Shore and Don Davis's pyramidal diatonic clusters AKA the "Rising Chords of Doom"?

Ok, hear me out on this one.  One can argue this stuff goes way back if we can define the rising chords of doom (it is possible I don't know what section you are referring to but I assume you mean the slowly building cluster?) as a cluster spelled out over time.  Here is an example of 1737 of a cluster at the start followed by the notes being outlined one by one at 0:23:

The opening cluster is then outlined.  So you have two elements...a cluster and its gradual unfolding of the individual notes.  Basically seeing these as two separate elements harmony and melody (notes over time).  Like this:

 

Is that what you mean by chord of doom?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

4 hours ago, TheGreyPilgrim said:

It carries through Bartók, Rautavaara, Ligeti and Pendercki

 

I've just just scan-listened through the bulk of Ligeti and Penderecki's later works, and I can't find any of these accumulating diatonic clusters. There's some gristliness that resembles Shore in Penderecki's first two symphonies and some expanding chromatic clusters, but nada.

 

I'm not familiar with Rautavaara. Whereabouts should I start?

 

Bartók's an interesting suggestion. Maybe some of the string quartets?

 

54 minutes ago, karelm said:

 

 

Is that what you mean by chord of doom?

 

That's it. Credit goes to @Incanus for rising chords of doom.

 

It's basically a rising diatonic cluster, where each note is sustained, like an arpeggiated chord.

[karelm 2,903]

52 minutes ago, Sharky said:

That's it. Credit goes to @Incanus for rising chords of doom.

It's basically a rising diatonic cluster, where each note is sustained, like an arpeggiated chord.

One could also consider this dramaturgy.  The cluster is maximum tension and the composer wants to gradually increase the tension (though over just a second) because he is mirroring the cops mind..."that's impossible".  The cop realizes this by the evidence presented over a brief moment which the composer is mirroring but by using techniques that are centuries old.