MrScratch 294 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 It's been years since I've listened to these but I gave them a good long listen over the weekend. I don't recall them being discussed here in a good while either so I'm starting this thread to show some more love on these recordings and discuss them.Star Wars (I'm only talking about the Star Wars recordings, not Close Encounters but feel free to)To me, this is my least favorite of the three. The main title is a decent enough recording and performance, but is too slow for me. Princess Leia's Theme is a very fine performance, but this is a theme that is on countless other recordings so this particular one doesn't stand out but is still excellent. Here They Come is very good, but not as good as the Utah Sympony recording in my opinion. The Little People is excellent and one of the reasons to get this album. The standout piece for me on this recording is The Final Battle, why haven't other orchestras recorded this? For as classic a score as this is, very little of it gets performed other than the Main Title and Princess Leia's theme. The Throne Room and Finale is also excellent, and the closing credits are improvement over the opening main title track.Empire Strikes BackThis is my favorite of the three and is an outstanding representation of the score. The main title is my favorite all time rerecording of the opening crawl. It is flawless. However, the inclusion of the unused Hoth music immediately following is perplexing. So much great music in Empire, not sure why they went with that on an album that needed to make a lot of other cuts. The OST segues into the Mynock cave music, that would have been very cool to rerecord that. Overall, the performances are on par with the soundtrack and the tempos are spot on. At one point over I listened to Luke's First Crash three times in a row. Absolutely fantastic. I'd have left off Training of Jedi Knight & Magic Tree and instead included Yoda and the Force & Hyperspace. Though not definitive, the Imperial March is excellent and I dig the added intro. Han Solo and the Princess IS definitive and one of the reasons to buy this album. The End Credits is, I believe, the only such rerecording of the End Credits from Empire Strikes Back and the performance is exhilarating.Return of the JediThis is an album of highs and lows. This album suffers from some really poor choices, but the performances are top notch throughout. With so much ROTJ music being unavailable at the time, this was a wasted opportunity to put some more of it out there. Into the Trap/Fight In The Dungeon is excellent, a highlight of the album. However, Heroic Ewok and Ewok Battle are baffling choices to include. Heroic Ewok is centered around the Ewoks theme and is a bit redundant to include along with Parade of the Ewoks. Same with the Ewok Battle, which is just the film version of Forest Battle. To go with those two pieces with so much at-time-time unavailable music is a crime. The Emperor's Theme, the Final Duel, the Fleet Goes Into Hyperspace or Through the Flames would have been better choices. Though not the fault of Gerhardt, I personally find the Jabba's Palace music to be the dullest and most skippable music of the original trilogy. Han Solo Returns is a perfectly ok piece with a very acceptable performance of it. I'd have replaced it with either Yoda's Death or Faking the Code. Jabba's Theme is required here because I guess Williams is so high on it, but I rarely ever listen to it. It's my least favorite theme from the original trilogy. The Ewok Celebration and Finale is a real treat and surpasses the OST Yub Nub version for me, it is perfectly arranged for orchestra and percussion sans lyrics. I would have preferred if the Yub Nub version were replaced with something like this instead of 1997's Victory Celebration. (By the way I don't dislike Victory Celebration, I just prefer the original Ewok Celebration.) Bespin and Stempel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I enjoy pieces of all of them greatly. A one CD compilation of all the best bits would be killer.I have always really loved the Han Solo and the Princess concert arrangement that appears on the Empire disc. Shame Williams didn't record that with the LSO during the original TESB recording sessions Stempel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Fantastic companion pieces, I've worn my old discs out. I love all three. Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Beware the cavernous Dolby Surround mix of the CD's - the old LP's sound much better (for 1-and ). Ricard and Stempel 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 They pressed stereo and Prologic versions of the Gerhardt CDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stempel 136 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Gerhardt´s EMPIRE is one of my favorite Soundtrack-Albums.There are better recordings of the whole Star-Wars-Suite but "The Little People Work" is great.I like the "Ewok Celebration" without the Ewoks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Fantastic companion pieces, I've worn my old discs out. I love all three.This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 They are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrScratch 294 Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Favorite album of the three? Favorite track? Least favorite track? Anyone? Bueller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,630 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 it's the only re-recordings that seem to sound close to Williams conducting himselfIt was the first time I heard the concert version of Han Solo and the Princess and I was pretty amazed. This is one of my single most favorite of all Williams tracks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stempel 136 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Favorite album of the three? Favorite track? Least favorite track? Anyone? Bueller?Favorite Album: The Empire Strikes BackFavorite Tracks: The Little People Work, The Battle In The Snow, Han Solo And The Princess, Yoda´s Theme, Imperial March, Parade Of The Ewoks, Luke And Leia, Ewok Celebration And Finale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I like the "Ewok Celebration" without the Ewoks.If only Gerhardt directed the movie as well. Imagine the Moon of Endor without Ewoks! Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,490 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Great discs, all of them. People in this thread are fond of them because they're a nice supplement to the original soundtracks. I would have liked them even if they WERE the only soundtracks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I would have liked them even if they WERE the only soundtracks! You really can be presumptuous at times Thor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,490 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Presumptous? Hardly. It's the truth. If the Gerhardt discs were the only STAR WARS soundtracks that existed in this world, I would be fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 At leas they sound better than the real deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Star Wars: Brilliant, probably still the best recording of this music. The performance may not be entirely flawless, but there's a *musicality* to these interpretations that can't be matched by the fixed timing of an actual film score, yet also hasn't been matched by any other concert recording I've heard. Tempos are perfect. The Empire Strikes Back: Odd interpretation, poor performance, lousy recording. It's the only Gerhardt album I've heard that I find sub par. I still completely fail to understand all the excitement about it. Return of the Jedi: A slightly mixed bag, perhaps, and the sequencing is certainly strange. But when it's good, it's very good indeed. Approaching the Death Star, Into the Trap and Finale are awesome. It's a shame these are missing from Sony's remastered edition of the series. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The Empire Strikes Back: Odd interpretation, poor performance, lousy recording. It's the only Gerhardt album I've heard that I find sub par. I still completely fail to understand all the excitement about it.You listened to hungarians mangling 80's Goldsmith and still call this performance lousy? Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilal 569 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 At leas they sound better than the real deal.The Empire Strikes Back recording is awful, or at least what I've heard (I don't know about the LP or the Pro Logic releases). It has a very thin, cold sound, and the high frequencies are overly emphasized (the cymbal crashes are hardly bearable). The original LP release of Empire Strikes Back sounds much better.EDIT: One positive remark: the brass seems to be more clear and vibrant on the Gerhardt CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stempel 136 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The Empire Strikes Back: Odd interpretation, poor performance, lousy recording.??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The Empire Strikes Back: Odd interpretation, poor performance, lousy recording. It's the only Gerhardt album I've heard that I find sub par. I still completely fail to understand all the excitement about it. You listened to hungarians mangling 80's Goldsmith and still call this performance lousy? I've fortunately never had to hear Hungarians play Star Wars. It's not as bad as those, but it's more distracting (because I know other versions) and not a match for Gerhardt's RCA recordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The Gerhardt TESB is a stunning album! Stempel and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stempel 136 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The Gerhardt TESB is a stunning album!That´s right.Here you can see the great Foldout-Cover from the LP:(from my collection) Bespin and Gruesome Son of a Bitch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The Empire Strikes Back: Odd interpretation, poor performance, lousy recording. ??????? Odd interpretation, poor performance, lousy recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stempel 136 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Okay, you´re right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,630 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'm a bit lost with those comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 It's a bit rough and unpolished but apart from the digital shrillness i cannot detect terrible performance mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent B 337 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Eh they're not too bad. I personally prefer Williams original recordings. Most of your re-recordings can be either too painfully slow or too fast... I've never really cared for re-recordings to much. Now unless it's something like Tadlow then that's a whole different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Eh they're not too bad. I personally prefer Williams original recordings. Most of your re-recordings can be either too painfully slow or too fast... I've never really cared for re-recordings to much. Now unless it's something like Tadlow then that's a whole different story.Although Williams often makes strange decisions concerning how fast of slow these pieces should be played. Not so much on Star Wars but with many other concert suites e.g. recent Adventures of Mutt or the Lost Boys Ballet or Jim's New Life from Empire of the Sun where the performance is fine but the speed lags and makes these sprightly pieces feel lethargic. Surely the orchestras can play these without resorting to making them this slow so there must be some personal aesthetics thing for him. A contrary example would be the JP concert suite which is played just too fast in the opening hymn section and JW conducts it himself this faster way so I guess he prefers it like that.I really like the Gerhardt suite from Star Wars, have listened too little of his RotJ to give an opinion and think the ESB album is a hit and miss throughout.Hey at least it is not the Graunke Symphony Orchestra. Bill Conti's Masters of the Universe is a true testament to their inexperience and ineptitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I can't hear any performance issues in MOTU. What's wrong with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 It is certainly not awful from start to finish by no means but at least I can hear some lack of finesse throughout. Most audible things are the really bad horn flubs in the few final tracks (The Battle Begins/The Final Battle for example). Conti himself says diplomatically in the LLL liner notes that the Graunke players were not that good and that they could not play the pieces through so the cues had to be assembled from the sections they had gotten right, which apparently was rather arduous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 The Graunke seems to have suffered from this throughout the 80's.They were unable to play Jerry Goldsmith's Total Recall score, so Jerry had to rope in the NPO instead. Same for Courage for Superman 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Who hires these incompetent musicians?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Who hires these incompetent musicians?!Hollywood in the 80s apparently. I am sure these players were not bad musicians or incompetent in normal circumstances. I think they just didn't fare well in the film scoring environment where they have to play this stuff right off the page, record very quickly and still play everything with precision and finesse. Or so I would suspect. It is not like they hired just anyone off the street to be in this Graunke orchestra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 According to Bruce Botnick the Graunke were really only used to playing marches in those days and unable to meet the requirements of a very complex score like Total Recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowe T Robot 0 Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I just listened to the three Gerhardt recordings this week, since it'd been awhile and I appreciate the fact that they're a great way to enjoy music from the original trilogy in a condensed format. I mean, who always has time to listen to 2-disc editions? The Gerhardt ROTJ has always been a favorite, but I agree that there were odd choices, such as "Heroic Ewok" and the film version of "The Ewok Battle". I always found it strange that there were no versions of the Emperor's theme, but it seems to me that this was orchestrated for choir, it would have meant hiring choral members for the NPO performance. That might not have been financial feasible, so instead of performing ROTJ cues based around The Emperor without choir, the decision was made to just not include them. Same for any duel cues. I also was very happy with the Kojian/Utah Symphony recordings, since it included "Fight with TIE Fighters" and "Darth Vader's Death". Back in the day (the 80's), it was amazing to own these records and have that music at all, since they weren't included on the official soundtrack album. I always thought that since the Polydor Records didn't allow for a 2-LP set, Williams decided to farm out for re-recordings the cues he would have included if he had been allowed a double album set. In terms of his preference for combining short cues into longer suites, he might have even combined "Into The Trap" with "Fight In The Dungeon", as it was presented by Gerhardt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent B 337 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I also was very happy with the Kojian/Utah Symphony recordings, since it included "Fight with TIE Fighters" and "Darth Vader's Death". Back in the day (the 80's), it was amazing to own these records and have that music at all, since they weren't included on the official soundtrack album. I always thought that since the Polydor Records didn't allow for a 2-LP set, Williams decided to farm out for re-recordings the cues he would have included if he had been allowed a double album set. In terms of his preference for combining short cues into longer suites, he might have even combined "Into The Trap" with "Fight In The Dungeon", as it was presented by Gerhardt. I had the Kojian CD a long time ago...need to get it again. It's one of the re-recording CDs that I like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,331 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I always thought that since the Polydor Records didn't allow for a 2-LP set, Williams decided to farm out for re-recordings the cues he would have included if he had been allowed a double album set. In terms of his preference for combining short cues into longer suites, he might have even combined "Into The Trap" with "Fight In The Dungeon", as it was presented by Gerhardt. In my country (and in all of Europe, I think), even The Empire Strikes Back was released as a single LP and not a double LP like Star Wars (1977). Grrrr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,345 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Now unless it's something like Tadlow then that's a whole different story.I'm not really a big fan of Tadlow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,345 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 Why not?I am not a big fan of the sound (of the studio/orchestra) they usually use.For example, their El Cid recording sounds more "generic epic", somewhat losing that "spanish" sound that is in the original and Munich recording.The overmodulation is a problem as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I've never had any issue with Masters of the Universe, by the way. I think it's a pretty bitchin' recording.As for Gerhardt, his versions kick ass. The extended fanfare in Luke's First Crash is one of the best John Williams moments, and I don't even think he arranged it like that. It's like Gerhardt just decided to keep it going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 15, 2014 Share Posted November 15, 2014 I doubt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb408 3 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Not sure why everyone seems so wrapped up in these Gerhardt recordings. Check out "Luke's First Crash", for instance; at 0:50 the tuba/trombones don't sound nearly as clear and strong as in the OST version, and at 1:58 there is a really nasty trumpet clam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 They are great versions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb408 3 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 The OST version sounds more convincing, coming from a brass player. There are intonation and articulation issues littered all throughout the Gerhardt recordings. And some players simply have bad tone. "National Philharmonic" actually isn't very well known. On the other hand, LSO and their brass are both legendary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,345 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 "National Philharmonic" actually isn't very well known.Isn't that the same orchestra who performed a lot/few of Goldsmith's scores? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 The National Philharmonic was a recording orchestra assembled from the finest players of the London Orchestra scene. William Bard should have known that as a brass player! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,191 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 Not sure why everyone seems so wrapped up in these Gerhardt recordings. Check out "Luke's First Crash", for instance; at 0:50 the tuba/trombones don't sound nearly as clear and strong as in the OST version, and at 1:58 there is a really nasty trumpet clam... Don't compare ESB to the others. In fact, it's a Varese release, while the others are part of RCA's Classic Film Scores series. The NPO being a pickup orchestra, I wonder if the (presumably) different production circumstances might mean a different orchestra setup? wdb408 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,336 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 I thought they all originally came out on the same label, and Varese simply re-issued TESB later after it went OOP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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