Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Stefancos said: Wrong! You MUST choose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocodile 8,012 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Harry Potter has a nice theme (or even collection of themes) but it also feels very much like a rehash of Home Alone/Hook/The Phantom Menace. There is nothing new about it. It is no match for A.I. which is among Williams' most unique scores. Karol Not Mr. Big and crumbs 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,511 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Exactly. A.I. is one of Williams' most unique, "unlikely" scores. Tracks like "Journey through the Ice (Part 1)" or "What is Your Wish" contain music that you wouldn't expect from typical Williams. I mean, overall, A.I. has a peculiar dream-like quality that makes it stand out from the rest. I noticed it when I first saw the film a little under a year ago and it immediately struck me as something different and special. It quickly became among my favourite Williams scores. Given that BFG obviously has a theme related to dreams, I can foresee Williams touching upon that dreamy, other-worldly sound he used in A.I. But there will be more Hookish, kiddish elements in there as well, as we've already heard. Which I don't particular mind, as long as it isn't overdone. In any case...I'm looking forward to it! Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 34 minutes ago, crocodile said: Harry Potter has a nice theme (or even collection of themes) but it also feels very much like a rehash of Home Alone/Hook/The Phantom Menace. There is nothing new about it. It is no match for A.I. which is among Williams' most unique scores. Karol Well said, Brother Karol. You are strong in the True Faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will 2,215 Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Not sure if people realized, but it's not that the AI bit I posted above generally sounded like the same type of stuff in the BFG premiere video; what I meant is it specifically sounded very similar to one of the BFG main themes, just for a few seconds. Specifically, 11:19 of the AI YouTube clip corresponds to 0:44 of loert's piano playing of the BFG score found here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 On May 19, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Bill said: Sounds like BFG there, am I right? OMG, lol, they don't sound anything alike. That "For Always" is very broadwayesque and the BFG theme from what I hear with the chord progression is very Tchaikovsky from his Sleeping Beauty era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,658 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Another review that does not intend to praise Williams's score (though it neither dismisses it), but ends up giving it the sort of description that makes me look forward to the score: "It’s directly down to him [Rylance] that the ending brims with an emotion you barely suspected was there – rare for a filmmaker as sentimental as Spielberg, who has composer John Williams otherwise working overtime to wring out feelings that trickle rather than flood forth." http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/18/the-bfg-review Will and Loert 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 5 hours ago, crocodile said: Harry Potter has a nice theme (or even collection of themes) but it also feels very much like a rehash of Home Alone/Hook/The Phantom Menace. There is nothing new about it. It is no match for A.I. which is among Williams' most unique scores. Karol Out of Williams Harry Potters I would go with 3 any day. I think it's a fantastic score. From his parents haunting "bridge to the past" theme, to aunt Marge's waltz, to the bus jazz cue, to whipping willow, to Buckbeak's flight and the tick tock going back in time cue, to the voices with those burka covered flying dementors etc etc etc, so much in that score to love. Cerebral Cortex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerebral Cortex 3,357 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 26 minutes ago, ocelot said: Out of Williams Harry Potters I would go with 3 any day. I think it's a fantastic score. From his parents haunting "bridge to the past" theme, to aunt Marge's waltz, to the bus jazz cue, to whipping willow, to Buckbeak's flight and the tick tock going back in time cue, to the voices with those burka covered flying dementors etc etc etc, so much in that score to love. I remember going into that film expecting a score from Williams that would be very much steeped in the musical lexicon of the first two films, and I struggle to think of instances where my musical expectations for a film were more blown away. Never would have guessed the score would have been as different as it was. I think the PoA score ranks as one of Williams finer, and definitely more unique, musical achievements. Certainly a masterpiece in my book. ocelot and Once 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 The thing that pissed me off when other composers took over the Potter franchise was how they threw all those themes for different characters and settings out. I was like are you that dumb? Had I been blessed to take over that franchise I would have used all the themes when appropriate. Chamber of Secrets for example. I would have taken Bridge to the Past about his parents and made it about Sirius Black since he became his surrogate father and losing him affected him the same way. What dumb composer goes into a franchise that Williams has beautifully played down an incredible foundation and then think they can match any thematic material.... Sorry, rant over.... Horrid scores after his. Didn't like one of them even. I did prefer the darker tones of the films and that's what saved them for me, but scores 4 to 8? Serviceable at best and some areas were downright dreadful. Such a tragedy and totally showed you the difference between people's abilities. Oops, OK, sorry, rant over now.... I mean I could go on, but that would show how much of a bitch I can be..... I mean quidditch, year 3... SLOBBER!!!!!! That fugal section is brilliant! justaguy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
publicist 4,643 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Not every composer wants to be a showman (Hooper obviously didn't) and your rant ignores the obvious requirement of the production team - a wild guess might be that a Patrick Doyle or even Desplat aren't 500 pound gorillas like Williams, with whom studios probably wouldn't fuck around for a variety of reasons. Bottom line: the movies changed very much in tone and what you suggest might only have worked in a negligible handful of scenes and the new tasks at hand made it easier to make up a new tune like 'Obliviate' instead of noodling around with long-lined Williams themes just to make a handful of fans happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I understand people's distaste for the last four Potter scores, but I was thankful we also had new themes to hear other than the composers working overtime to quote Williams, which as much as I like hearing other composers' ideas or arrangements of Williams' themes, I would find it distracting or that the producers didn't trust the new composer to establish new musical identities. That said, it felt odd in Deathly Hallows for Hedwig's Theme to play for those brief scenes towards the end of the film, it was like: "Hey, it's Harry Potter, don't you remember?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TownerFan 4,983 Posted May 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2016 7 hours ago, ocelot said: The thing that pissed me off when other composers took over the Potter franchise was how they threw all those themes for different characters and settings out. I was like are you that dumb? Had I been blessed to take over that franchise I would have used all the themes when appropriate. Chamber of Secrets for example. I would have taken Bridge to the Past about his parents and made it about Sirius Black since he became his surrogate father and losing him affected him the same way. What dumb composer goes into a franchise that Williams has beautifully played down an incredible foundation and then think they can match any thematic material.... Sorry, rant over.... Horrid scores after his. Didn't like one of them even. I did prefer the darker tones of the films and that's what saved them for me, but scores 4 to 8? Serviceable at best and some areas were downright dreadful. Such a tragedy and totally showed you the difference between people's abilities. Oops, OK, sorry, rant over now.... I mean I could go on, but that would show how much of a bitch I can be..... I mean quidditch, year 3... SLOBBER!!!!!! That fugal section is brilliant! Point is also that, in subsequent films, music became a lot less important as a central element to establish feelings, tone and narrative flow. Just compare the role of music in the first film with the last one. Of course it's also a matter of directorial style, which probably lent itself much less to the typical grand symphonic gesture Williams used in the first three films. Columbus used a very Spielberg-like style (albeit only in a superficial way) that really called for the Williams-type of sound. Cuàron went on a very different path, but at least inspired Williams to come up with a very diverse and eclectic piece of work (from Renaissance-inspired orchestrations to the Rossini-esque waltz, passing through Stravinskian jazz for the bus ride and avant-garde writing for the Dementors). Yates instead came up with a directing style that was more like television miniseries routine, something that probably needs mostly atmospheric underscore. Not Mr. Big, Cerebral Cortex, Will and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 Nicely analysed and stated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ocelot 508 Posted May 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2016 12 hours ago, publicist said: Not every composer wants to be a showman (Hooper obviously didn't) and your rant ignores the obvious requirement of the production team - a wild guess might be that a Patrick Doyle or even Desplat aren't 500 pound gorillas like Williams, with whom studios probably wouldn't fuck around for a variety of reasons. Bottom line: the movies changed very much in tone and what you suggest might only have worked in a negligible handful of scenes and the new tasks at hand made it easier to make up a new tune like 'Obliviate' instead of noodling around with long-lined Williams themes just to make a handful of fans happy. Sorry but you can change direction because the movie gets darker, you can infuse so much of yourself WITHOUT ignoring the themes given to you for certain things. The scores were just not that great. You don't even have to be a showman. But when you just have celli and basses repeating the same low note and that is your basis of the whole chase scene then that is either 1. Lazy scoring or 2. inept scoring. 4 hours ago, TownerFan said: Point is also that, in subsequent films, music became a lot less important as a central element to establish feelings, tone and narrative flow. Just compare the role of music in the first film with the last one. Of course it's also a matter of directorial style, which probably lent itself much less to the typical grand symphonic gesture Williams used in the first three films. Columbus used a very Spielberg-like style (albeit only in a superficial way) that really called for the Williams-type of sound. Cuàron went on a very different path, but at least inspired Williams to come up with a very diverse and eclectic piece of work (from Renaissance-inspired orchestrations to the Rossini-esque waltz, passing through Stravinskian jazz for the bus ride and avant-garde writing for the Dementors). Yates instead came up with a directing style that was more like television miniseries routine, something that probably needs mostly atmospheric underscore. Again, the tone of the darker tone of the movies are one thing, but to ignore themes given to you means you ignore making the world one. I'm not saying that you have to have the same TYPE adventure score, it's gone way beyond that, but you still should adhere to the thematic material given to you rather than go, Oh I can write a theme, uuumm, no. Just my two cents, I just think they failed which is why they ended it with Williams and why anything related to Potter, theme parks etc, give you mostly if not all (as far as I heard so far) William's themes. He can go dark and still give you incredible chase scenes to listen to that get your blood running. It seems these days, scoring has gone so banal as to be OK with whatever people throw at us. It's quite sad actually. Look at War of the Worlds. Williams went dark, not much thematic material, but still very exciting and interesting. 11 hours ago, RPurton said: I understand people's distaste for the last four Potter scores, but I was thankful we also had new themes to hear other than the composers working overtime to quote Williams, which as much as I like hearing other composers' ideas or arrangements of Williams' themes, I would find it distracting or that the producers didn't trust the new composer to establish new musical identities. That said, it felt odd in Deathly Hallows for Hedwig's Theme to play for those brief scenes towards the end of the film, it was like: "Hey, it's Harry Potter, don't you remember?" Imagine someone going into star wars and not quoting the force theme when appropriate or imperial march when needed. What I am saying is not that we should only hear William's themes, but they should be part of the whole as it's part of that world. There are plenty of new places, new chase scenes and new characters to score and add to and create your own personal touches, but you do not ignore what is appropriate for already established characters and places. artguy360, Pieter Boelen and justaguy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,658 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I would call the Hooper scores "ineffectual." They don't detract from but neither do they significantly add anything to the cinematic experience. ocelot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,688 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Are there any franchises where a new composer has taken over and actively continued the themes? I don't think it happens very often. I guess Don Davis comes the closest I can think of, with JP3 using all of JW's primary themes in a couple of places. The problem with Potter is that the subsequent composers have all had such different approaches to scoring, and no doubt different requests from directors too. We were spoilt (IMO) with an amazing first score, and it set a benchmark which thematically was never going to be matched by the scores later in the franchise. It has a childlike sense of magic and innocence (and the antagonist in the plot isn't particularly potent) which just isn't there in subsequent films. For example, I don't think Harry's Wonderous World had a place beyond the first few films. There's nothing 'wonderous' about Hogwarts by the end. Will 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 Quote Are there any franchises where a new composer has taken over and actively continued the themes? I don't think it happens very often. The James Bond franchise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Penna 3,688 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 That needs one theme to be continued.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 The Superman films up untill MOS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted May 20, 2016 Author Share Posted May 20, 2016 Beltrami used Kamen's Die Hard themes in his sequel scores. Superman 2-4 & Smallville & Supergirl used Superman 1's themes. Tyler & Elfman used Silvestri's Avengers, Black Widow, and Hellicarrier themes All Terminator sequels use Fiedels theme All (?) Star Trek films used the Alexander Courage theme Debney made extensive use of Silvestri's Predator themes in his sequel score Jaws 3 & 4 use Williams' shark theme. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 20 minutes ago, Jay said: All (?) Star Trek films used the Alexander Courage theme STTMP doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 It does use Courage's actual theme, and the fanfare is based on that, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 4,658 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 33 minutes ago, Richard Penna said: Are there any franchises where a new composer has taken over and actively continued the themes? I don't think it happens very often. Jaws and the horrific Home Alones 3 and 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post publicist 4,643 Posted May 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2016 2 hours ago, ocelot said: Sorry but you can change direction because the movie gets darker, you can infuse so much of yourself WITHOUT ignoring the themes given to you for certain things. The scores were just not that great. You don't even have to be a showman. But when you just have celli and basses repeating the same low note and that is your basis of the whole chase scene then that is either 1. Lazy scoring or 2. inept scoring. I think the fan in you just totally doesn't get how blockbuster films today are made in regards to scoring. The least of the problem these guys faced was the incorporation of some themes for the prior movies. It was writing 120 minutes of something that didn't clash with the millions of sound effects and didn't make Yates nervous who probably would have needed a John Williams score on his movies like he needed a second asshole. The scores you hear now in the movies proper are exactly what Yates ordered and Desplat probably smuggled some more depth into them than actually required of him. Dixon Hill, Once, Sharkissimo and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 So will the farting sounds make it on to the album or will it be a film-only type of thing? (I hope it's the former) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,511 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 If the farting is part of the music then Williams should put it in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrbellamy 6,287 Posted May 20, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2016 I really want to know if he just wrote general comedy music for those scenes or if he actually incorporated fart effects into the orchestration. Because this could really be his greatest masterpiece. Loert, crumbs and Will 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I hope they're authentic farts and not that stock-sound effect shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbellamy 6,287 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 I hope Spielberg and Williams recorded the farts themselves. Once and JacksonElmore 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted May 20, 2016 Share Posted May 20, 2016 2 hours ago, Stefancos said: It does use Courage's actual theme, and the fanfare is based on that, so... I've always considered them two separate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post nightscape94 965 Posted May 21, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2016 23 hours ago, Tom said: Another review that does not intend to praise Williams's score (though it neither dismisses it), but ends up giving it the sort of description that makes me look forward to the score: "It’s directly down to him [Rylance] that the ending brims with an emotion you barely suspected was there – rare for a filmmaker as sentimental as Spielberg, who has composer John Williams otherwise working overtime to wring out feelings that trickle rather than flood forth." http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/05/18/the-bfg-review It is funny how much we, as Williams fans, are continually and further encouraged by critical statements which articulate the nature of the music as mawkish. Bring on that sugary goodness. Not Mr. Big, crumbs and Will 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,315 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Distracting, obnoxious, saccharine, intrusive, manipulative and heavy-handed are all dirty words used to describe Williams by critics, but they're music to the ears of JWFans. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I have all the Williams sugar I need with the first Potter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Go back to the Zimmer boards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Who are these people? This name changing mania is confusing. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Indeed! It should never have been allowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,363 Posted May 21, 2016 Author Share Posted May 21, 2016 Changing names has always been allowed here. Hornist you yourself changed many times. And there is a very convenient thread that lists all the changes. You guys are complaining just to complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 54 minutes ago, Stefancos said: Go back to the Zimmer boards! We have Zimmer boards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 No! And we never will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Jay said: Changing names has always been allowed here. Hornist you yourself changed many times. And there is a very convenient thread that lists all the changes. You guys are complaining just to complain. Ok, thanks. I forgot that thread of changes. Now I know better. If you are months away from this site and there are a boost of changes, it is confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus 5,399 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 3 hours ago, crumbs said: Distracting, obnoxious, saccharine, intrusive, manipulative and heavy-handed are all dirty words used to describe Williams by critics, but they're music to the ears of JWFans. Most not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 To me they are. And that is all I care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 4 hours ago, TheWhiteRider said: We have Zimmer boards? If there was enough demand, it wouldn't be a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,193 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 8 hours ago, Jay said: And there is a very convenient thread that lists all the changes. You guys are complaining just to complain. I have a really bad memory for names. I'd have to print out the name change thread and check it every time I see a previously unknown name. I've honestly lost track of who half the regulars are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 20 hours ago, publicist said: I think the fan in you just totally doesn't get how blockbuster films today are made in regards to scoring. The least of the problem these guys faced was the incorporation of some themes for the prior movies. It was writing 120 minutes of something that didn't clash with the millions of sound effects and didn't make Yates nervous who probably would have needed a John Williams score on his movies like he needed a second asshole. The scores you hear now in the movies proper are exactly what Yates ordered and Desplat probably smuggled some more depth into them than actually required of him. Fan in me? I'm a composer. I'm definitely not talking from a fan prospective at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 I say no name changes allowed on the MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelot 508 Posted May 21, 2016 Share Posted May 21, 2016 22 hours ago, Richard Penna said: Are there any franchises where a new composer has taken over and actively continued the themes? I don't think it happens very often. I guess Don Davis comes the closest I can think of, with JP3 using all of JW's primary themes in a couple of places. The problem with Potter is that the subsequent composers have all had such different approaches to scoring, and no doubt different requests from directors too. We were spoilt (IMO) with an amazing first score, and it set a benchmark which thematically was never going to be matched by the scores later in the franchise. It has a childlike sense of magic and innocence (and the antagonist in the plot isn't particularly potent) which just isn't there in subsequent films. For example, I don't think Harry's Wonderous World had a place beyond the first few films. There's nothing 'wonderous' about Hogwarts by the end. I totally agree with what you are saying, and Lord, I'm not saying that all the themes should be brought back and absolutely, the tone gets darker and nothing is magical. But lets say I was fortunate enough to get the reins to score the latter movies (I am a composer and hope to be scoring movies of this style at some point), I would have brought back the chamber of secrets theme in a darker way when we go there in the latter movies. When Sirius dies, I would use that haunting theme that was Harry's love for his parents, because it wasn't a theme strictly for them but one of his feelings towards a parental figure and the loss of them. It would be dumb to bring in many themes, but there are key ones to use effectively here and there and you would have gotten a more cohesive overall experience. Plus, as a composer I cannot stand lazy chase music. I think you can go as light and magical and quirky, to as dark and low and aggressive as all hell but still give a totally interesting chase cue for the scene, for moviegoers and for listeners of scores. Look guys, in the end music is subjective, this is just my take on it and it's great hearing everyone else's difference of opinions too. If we all liked the same thing, boy would this world be boring. And hey, if you only knew what I listen to in the gym, I won't mention names but one of the bitches keeps telling me to "Work Bitch". How many points did I lose now? justaguy and Pieter Boelen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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