The Rise of Skywalker Star Wars IX The Rise of Skywalker (JJ Abrams 2019)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, Star Wars has some awful dialogue 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

So far, hating sand hasn't attracted a girl's interest yet.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

On 5/19/2018 at 12:25 AM, crumbs said:

It's a brilliant movie, easily the best in the series since Empire. People will realise eventually.

Yeah, people need to come back to this in a few years when the Skywalker Saga has closed. Then it can all be looked at with a different approach. For example, after I saw TFA the novelty of its recency made me say "That one was the best". Then I saw Rogue One and said "That one was just as good, better". Then I saw TLJ and said " Now this". As long as they keep coming out, I feel very influenced by which was the latest to come out. Five years after IX, I think I'll be able to look back and actually say, okay I liked this one better, even though I was just as excited when I first saw them. I bet I'm going to say Solo was great after I see it, which it very well may be, but once it ages it will settle down into its proper place in the universe.

 

Weird philosophy. It's where I am right now.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I'm really not in the mind of engaging in a long discussion about The Last Jedi in a topic about Episode IX, so I'll just list pros and cons:

 

Pros: Its just fine!

Cons Its just fine...

[Balahkay 627]

First Mara, now Caro.  A Second Star Wars: Episode IX Character Description. All speculation, of course.  But possibly Lando's daughter? 

 

It's also been reported Billy Dee Williams is trying to get into shape.  

[mstrox 6,651]

I'm not confident in That Hashtag Show Dot Com's exclusive scoops, TBH.

[Chen G. 3,949]

54 minutes ago, someonefun124 said:

First Mara, now Caro

 

So, can we expect a Caro theme from Williams, complete with wood-blocks? 

[Holko 9,519]

There's rumour of Ewan being in this. How do we feel about Obi-Wan's ghost potentially getting younger?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Hello there!

[Balahkay 627]

I feel like if Kenobi wasn't in TLJ as a force ghost then he probably isn't likely to show up in IX either.

[mrbellamy 6,278]

I dunno about Obi-Wan, but Hayden's Anakin really should appear to Ben Solo at some point and smack him around like Yoda did to Luke. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

They're saving these cameos. TFA had Luke, TLJ had Yodel, R1 had Darth Vader, Tarkin, Leia, those guys from the cantina and stock footage of pilots from the original movie, Solo had Darth Maul. They're running out!

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

This will only create a bigger mystery surrounding the Force that can only get more messed up from here.

[crocodile 8,000]

6 minutes ago, Holko said:

There's rumour of Ewan being in this. How do we feel about Obi-Wan's ghost potentially getting younger?

Force(d) lifting can do wonders!

 

Karol

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

Just now, mrbellamy said:

I dunno about Obi-Wan, but Hayden's Anakin really should appear to Ben Solo at some point and smack him around like Yoda did to Luke. 

Wait to string in the prequels mister!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

19 minutes ago, mrbellamy said:

I dunno about Obi-Wan, but Hayden's Anakin really should appear to Ben Solo at some point and smack him around like Yoda did to Luke. 

 

Not sure how Anakin can appear as a force ghost when he's been reincarnated as Rey?

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Rey, meesa know who your REAL parents are! 

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

but Hayden's Anakin really should appear to Ben Solo at some point and smack him around like Yoda did to Luke. 

 

Why?

 

Its not just that its Hayden, its that there's no need to smack Kylo around. There's a need for him to die.

 

If Kylo turns to the light, it would be the biggest cop-out in the history of blockbusters, which is really saying something. I said as much after "The Force Awakens", but its all the more true after "The Last Jedi". What can a villain do, that Kylo didn't perform or attempted, which would make him irredeemable?

 

There's literally no narrative reason for him to be redeemed apart from "well, that's what happened in Return of the Jedi." Plus, there's too much satisfaction to be found in the death of a villain for the chance to be wasted.

[Arpy 4,145]

I'm looking forward to him being redeemed, I reckon they've been setting it up since TFA.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

He should go to a temple and remove the black suit, then take a shower and slick his hair back.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

We should take Star Wars and push it somewhere else!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's goin' nowhere! They gotch ya fer three trilogies!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Three trilogies of playtime!

[Chen G. 3,949]

5 hours ago, Arpy said:

I'm looking forward to him being redeemed, I reckon they've been setting it up since TFA.

 

I think that, as much as The Force Awakens is based in the original Star Wars, the ending of the film goes its own way. In so doing, one of the things it achieves is to make you think Kylo is on the traejectory to salvation (at least eventually) only to than have him kill off his father (and one of, if not THE most beloved character of the series) on-screen. To my mind, there’s no coming back from that, from a storytelling perspective.

 

Johnson saw that and ran with it in his film, toying with this idea of Kylo still being conflicted, only to eventually reveal it to be a facade with which he is leading Rey on, so that she can help him dispatch Snoke’s guards when he puts his assasination plot to action.

 

I guess that’s why it didn’t register with me: so many of the surprises Johnson threw at me in The Last Jedi were things I wasn’t invested in: he teases Rey’s parents and I’m thinking “who cares?” He teases Kylo turning and I, knowing Johnson is a better dramatist than this, was certain he was never going to come through on that, because it’s a trite story choice. There’s no reason, after Han’s murder, to go tha route other than “well, that’s what happened in Return of the Jedi.”

 

Kylo’s conflict between good and evil has been resolved in The Force Awakens, and he choose evil. Now, he needs to die. And done right, it will be one of the most cathartic moments of the series. Done wrong, or not done at all, however...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

10 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

I think that, as much as The Force Awakens is based in the original Star Wars, the ending of the film goes its own way. In so doing, one of the things it achieves is to make you think Kylo is on the traejectory to salvation (at least eventually) only to than have him kill off his father (and one of, if not THE most beloved character of the series) on-screen. To my mind, there’s no coming back from that, from a storytelling perspective.

 

Rey seems to feel there is hope.

[crocodile 8,000]

Anakin murdered a lot more people, including children, and he was still redeemed.

 

Why are we still talking about TLJ? That was six months ago!

 

Let's go back to Nolan.

 

Karol

[Chen G. 3,949]

19 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Anakin murdered a lot more people, including children, and he was still redeemed.

 

Why are we still talking about TLJ? That was six months ago!

 

 

We're not talking about The Last Jedi. We're talking about Episode IX.

 

Anakin didn't murder children until the prequel trilogy. I doubt, had he already been depicted as murdering children, that any filmmaker will have had him be redeemed. And, from a cinematic standpoint, killing children whom we don't know off-screen is not the same as killing a main character whom we do know (and very much care about) on-screen, much less when that character is the perpetrator's father.

 

Besides, Kylo is not Anakin. What works for the latter won't work for the former. Kylo needs to die.

[Incanus 5,714]

18 minutes ago, crocodile said:

Anakin murdered a lot more people, including children, and he was still redeemed.

 

Why are we still talking about TLJ? That was six months ago!

 

Let's go back to Nolan.

 

Karol

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-lan!!!!!

[Holko 9,519]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

had he already been depicted as murdering

 

killing children (...)  off-screen is not the same

 

Yeah, this Hitler guy was not so bad. Have you even seen actual footage of him personally killing people? Of course not, then that is what automatically makes him redeemable. There's hope yet for the poor underappreciated painter.

[Chen G. 3,949]

But this is a visual medium.

 

Besides, its not so much that its offscreen, its that we don't have a connection to these kids as we do Han when he is murdered. 

 

And again, no one will have written Anakin's redemption had the murder of the younglings already been depicted onscreen. You can't seriously look at the first three films and claim that they are genuinely informed (from a dramatic standpoint) by the intricacies of the prequel trilogy. I'm not a meme guy, but this puts it succintly:

 

 

Not to mention Kylo did kill Luke's students which probably weren't much older, either. They can be seen dead around the burning temple, although its not nearly as effective as the killing of the younglings in Episode III.

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

Kylo doesn’t need to die. Just have his ship spin off into space and then the audience can wonder what happened to him.

 

Let the people decide!

[Jurassic Shark 12,054]

Everything involving Kylo Ren was a dream! (to be stated in opening crawl of Ep. IX)

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

I read that Kylo tried to have dinner at the Mos Eisely Cantina and the owner politely asked him to leave.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

Is that thing still going? After the "Solo incident", I'd heard that it became a Taco Bell.

[Arpy 4,145]

@Chen G. Of course IX won't be a retread of everything the OT did, but Kylo's arc will be wasted if he's just a plain-old "Baddie". He killed his father, his master, he's clearly on a destructive path because he hates the past and what that represents - the supposed betrayal of Luke. In TFA we saw Kylo try to be the embodiment of Darth Vader, finally stripping that image away in TLJ. It'd be a shame for his character to go though all this shit and not have a redemptive moment where he realizes he fucked up. You don't need him to throw a Palpatine down an energy well on a Death Star and get electrocuted to do so.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yeah, but that he stripped away the mantle of Darth Vader didn't make him any less evil. His "killing the past" is a very dangerous and malicious world-view.

[Arpy 4,145]

To me, that's the setup for his character, his downfall into hatred and the dark side to reach his lowest point to then have in final chance at redemption. I could be wrong. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

His "killing the past" is a very dangerous and malicious world-view.

 

Indeed. Kylo Ren is a cultural Marxist (or Maoist)!

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

It does reflect some Marxist motifs, yeah.

 

As for dispensing of it, I dunno. There's a part of me that worries that a completely unhinged, uncontrolled, evil Kylo Ren might not be as compelling as he was up to this point.

 

8 minutes ago, Arpy said:

To me, that's the setup for his character, his downfall into hatred and the dark side to reach his lowest point to then have in final chance at redemption.

 

I think that moment already happened...just before he killed Han Solo.

 

And than came along Rian Johnson and spent a whole movie getting us to think that Kylo is internally conflicted, where in fact he's just fooling Rey into helping him take down Snoke for his own agenda.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

I think Kylo Ren is either extremely conflicted or extremely sneaky. Hell, even if he was just luring Rey his soul has every reason to be "split to the bone". Killing Han and trying to kill Leia were obviously hard for him, but I feel like he's now in such a psychological whirlwind if any, that he's incapable of really caring. He's killed Snoke, Han, Leia's leaving, he lost it against Luke, he hates Hux, he's angry with Rey. Even if there is another side to his emotion, he's going to keep on being bad, perhaps his worst, into IX, until of course that obvious moment where all comes into balance.

[SteveMc 2,674]

Kylo Ren can't choose.  That is his problem.  He gravitates towards the dark side, but can't shake off the light.  

He will not die a villian's death or a hero's.  He will die in limbo, unable to finally and completely decide.

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

7 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

He gravitates towards the dark side, but can't shake off the light.  

 

He can.

 

Its a charade. After killing his father, he is firmly on the side of darkness.

 

He just wants to rule instead of Snoke (the two having a very abusive relationship) but needs someone to help him do away with the guards (and to put the blame on).

 

The only real hesitation he has is killing his mother, and he seems to be over that soon enough, as well. Anyway, that there's one person in the galaxy that he is hestiant to kill doesn't make him much of a good guy...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Seems like an alright bloke.

[SteveMc 2,674]

12 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

He can.

 

Its a charade. After killing his father, he is firmly on the side of darkness.

 

He just wants to rule instead of Snoke (the two having a very abusive relationship) but needs someone to help him do away with the guards (and to put the blame on).

 

The only real hesitation he has is killing his mother, and he seems to be over that soon enough, as well. Anyway, that there's one person in the galaxy that he is hestiant to kill doesn't make him much of a good guy...

Not a good guy, but a conflicted character whose indecision will be his downfall.  He's powerful enough to rule the galaxy if on the dark side, commanding enough to have been a major leader if on the light.  

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

9 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

Not a good guy, but a conflicted character whose indecision will be his downfall.  He's powerful enough to rule the galaxy if on the dark side, commanding enough to have been a major leader if on the light.  

 

He's old enough to know what's right, but young enough to not choose it; he's wise enough to win the galaxy but fool enough to lose it.

[Chen G. 3,949]

51 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

Not a good guy, but a conflicted character

 

HE'S NOT CONFLICTED!

 

He's just fooling Rey.

 

He was planning to kill Snoke and take his place from the first minutes of The Last Jedi.

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

19 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

HE'S NOT CONFLICTED!

 

 

I don't think this is accurate. If you listen to the the commentary by either Abrams or Johnson, it's clear they regard the character as conflicted. He's written as such and I believe this is reflected in both the story and Driver's performance. 

 

Your view of him as a black & white villain is frankly just off the mark.  Whether he's ultimately "redeemed", and whether he's now chosen the dark side never to return, is another question. But he's clearly wrestling with internal conflict, even if his darker impulses are winning out...and even if he was manipulating Rey and even if he was was planning on overthrowing Snoke from the start.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I'm talking strictly about The Last Jedi (as a jumping-off point to IX). In The Force Awakens - yes, he's very much conflicted, and its very interesting to watch.

 

But in The Last Jedi its a facade, at least mostly. Like I said, he is conflicted about killing his mother in the early part of the film, but that's it. The rest is him fooling both Rey and Snoke. Still interesting to watch - but for a different reason.

 

That's the real twist of the movie - not that Kylo kills Snoke, but that he was planning to kill him all along, and not to undo Snoke's deeds or out of spite, but simply in order to supplant him. There's a telling moment in the fight with the guards where Ren sees Rey in a tight spot, but doesn't help her - because he didn't kill Snoke to help her. Its just to take his place.

 

Going forward, I guess one could make a big point out of the line about how "no one is ever really gone", but I believe just as important is that Luke acknowledges that he can't save Kylo, or that Leia admits that her son is gone.

[Nick1Ø66 4,711]

None of that means he's not conflicted. It's clear, again from the script and performance, that the character is conflicted. Just because he's making ultimately bad, self-serving "evil" choices doesn't mean he's not conflicted internally about what he's doing. And it's one thing to suggest that he had some plan wherein he's fooled by Rey & Snoke...it's another thing to suggest the character is being written to fool the audience.  Other characters in the movie describe him as conflicted, he describes himself as conflicted, and Driver plays the character as conflicted.

 

The entire character revolves around this conflict. The boy is conflicted.  Everyone see's that...why can't you?

[Chen G. 3,949]

I guess to truly get to the bottom of this would require a rewatch, which I am not planning to do in a long time.

 

I can't put my finger on it, but something about that film just left me not wanting to rewatch it anymore, but I digress.

 

8 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

it's another thing to suggest the character is being written to fool the audience. 

 

When so much of the film is intent on doing just that - I'm not sure its such a reach. But I see your point. I guess we'll agree to disagree.