Great Video Game Composers And Their Disinterest In Film

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

One of Wintory's concert pieces.  Challenging music.

 

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

There are woodwind parts right out of the 'Abzu' score. It's a very good piece. Someone give this man an epic!

[Quintus 5,399]

It's an ongoing frustration for me that the best score composers around today are so comfortable working in video games that they don't seem to be bothered about moving into film. 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

Jeremy Soule's work on Prisoner of Azakaban is heart-meltingly beautiful. I've never heard a piece of music encapsulate the feeling of a grey wintery day more than this:

 

I find Soule is at his absolute best when he's writing atmospheric or meditative pieces. another one of my favourites is the Manaan theme from KOTOR 1, no distinct melody but its so wonderfully calming:

 

[Marcus 390]

I'm still waiting for an epiphany with these composers... Perhaps it's a generational thing. Or perhaps it's got something to do with my never being much exposed to video games post the earliest Nintendo incarnations of the 80s and early 90s.

 

To me, most of it just sounds a bit flat and wishy-washy. I don't think the material is particularly strong or exciting, and the writing seems "patchy".

 

I really wanted to be impressed with the Wintory piece, but I feel he sabotages its structure by the suddenness of the choral element. Some of the writing is good (winds/some brass parts) , some of it not so good (strings/other brass parts). A lot of it actually sounds sampled, or as if composed for samples. I'm sure that needn't be a bad thing, but to my ears, it adds to the overall impression of a composer not entirely in touch with his medium. 

 

Then again, maybe I'm just old. 

 

 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

[Quintus 5,399]

Nothing really to worry about. It's just the same as the prejudices people hold against film music when they are ardently brought up on a strict diet of classical repertoire - the way some look down on the nearest orchestral alternative. So now uninitiated film music enthusiasts frown upon their perceived next alternative, which has become music for video games. It's an almost in-built difficulty to "understand" why the music for another "lesser" subgenre can possibly be of any kind of genuine quality, a working resistance to the idea of it. There's little consequence to that outlook of course and it'll be generational. A stance eventually made obsolete. As I said, it's nothing worth worrying about. 

[Marcus 390]

1 hour ago, Lonnegan said:

Nothing really to worry about. It's just the same as the prejudices people hold against film music when they are ardently brought up on a strict diet of classical repertoire - the way some look down on the nearest orchestral alternative. So now uninitiated film music enthusiasts frown upon their perceived next alternative, which has become music for video games. It's an almost in-built difficulty to "understand" why the music for another "lesser" subgenre can possibly be of any kind of genuine quality, a working resistance to the idea of it. There's little consequence to that outlook of course and it'll be generational. A stance eventually made obsolete. As I said, it's nothing worth worrying about. 

 

I never meant to imply that I see game music as a "lesser" genre. On the contrary,  I have only enthusiasm for any medium that may serve as a canvas for music, and in turn be part of its evolution. 

 

Which is why I really wanted to be impressed by Wintory's concert piece, as well as the many samples of game scoring in this thread. 

 

I'm sure there's great music written for games, and I'm sorry to not feel more excited about what I've heard so far. 

[Nic Cage Fugue 19]

I didn't know that Wintory piece existed. It's beautiful. 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

On 8/28/2016 at 6:03 PM, Lonnegan said:

Nothing really to worry about. It's just the same as the prejudices people hold against film music when they are ardently brought up on a strict diet of classical repertoire - the way some look down on the nearest orchestral alternative. So now uninitiated film music enthusiasts frown upon their perceived next alternative, which has become music for video games. It's an almost in-built difficulty to "understand" why the music for another "lesser" subgenre can possibly be of any kind of genuine quality, a working resistance to the idea of it. There's little consequence to that outlook of course and it'll be generational. A stance eventually made obsolete. As I said, it's nothing worth worrying about. 

 

Couldn't have said it better.   It's a phenomenon I've witnessed often, as I'm sure most of us have, and god knows I have no self control when it comes to getting into it with people over it.  I do think it's a cop out to call it generational.  Most of us here are within what, five years of each other?  It's just taste.  Who cares?

[Marcus 390]

I agree. "Generational" is inaccurate, and probably also misses the target. Rather, it's cultural: A symptom of taste and (p)references. 

 

My suspicion is that my own compositional experience, and my tendency to view the orchestra as something very concrete and performer-driven, leaves me less responsive to what I feel is generally a more abstract approach. 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, I have to say that I don't buy into the idea of composing in a "performer-driven" way.  This is something I heard often while coming up, that performers are easily bored and resent being given simple parts to play, and that I as a composer should always have this in mind and write in such a way that will keep them interested.  Well, sorry, but I think that's absolute bullshit.  I'm the composer, and I'm going to write what I feel I need to write, and it is the job of the performer to show up and give it their all, respecting the artistic discipline that they've chosen, whether every single member of the orchestra has a soloistic part or everyone has dozens of bars sustaining single notes.  When I've played in ensembles and orchestras, I practiced what I preach.  When I stand in front of a group of players, be it four or 100, I do what I can to inspire a good level of interest and commitment and humor and camaraderie as a conductor.   That, to me, is the time, place, and method for engaging the performers, not while composing, not by trying to keep everyone interested at all times through what you're writing.  And you'd better believe that if anyone gives me a hard time about something, or gives the impression of being disengaged from what we're doing, then I will say something and the situation will be rectified, one way or another.  But you know what?  I've found that this almost never happens.  I can count on one hand the number of times that I've encountered a moment involving "player disinterest or dissatisfaction," and those moments do not recur, because the people involved do not appear again.  No, with a bit of lightness and ease of attitude, the violas don't mind holding something for a minute and a half while an electronic prelay does something over top of them.  It's just what's written in their parts, not a source of artistic frustration or boredom.   

 

Anyway, a pointless tangent on something I could easily have misinterpreted.

[publicist 4,643]

Be that as it may, there are such huge differences in approach between video game (and tv) composers idiomatically as well as technical that i never would lump them together. A lot of this is, and alway will be, competent work for hire often done on small budgets and within these parameters, especially Wintory's more esoteric and compositonally sound writing continues to impress but McCreary's earthy offerings while more pop/rock-ish also spend some fun. Not all f-/utility music (music written not for its own sake) needs to be scrutinized like a concert work.

[Marcus 390]

5 hours ago, TheWhiteRider said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, I have to say that I don't buy into the idea of composing in a "performer-driven" way.  This is something I heard often while coming up, that performers are easily bored and resent being given simple parts to play, and that I as a composer should always have this in mind and write in such a way that will keep them interested. 

 

Well, sorry, but I think that's absolute bullshit.  I'm the composer, and I'm going to write what I feel I need to write, and it is the job of the performer to show up and give it their all, respecting the artistic discipline that they've chosen, whether every single member of the orchestra has a soloistic part or everyone has dozens of bars sustaining single notes.  When I've played in ensembles and orchestras, I practiced what I preach.  When I stand in front of a group of players, be it four or 100, I do what I can to inspire a good level of interest and commitment and humor and camaraderie as a conductor. 

 

That, to me, is the time, place, and method for engaging the performers, not while composing, not by trying to keep everyone interested at all times through what you're writing.  And you'd better believe that if anyone gives me a hard time about something, or gives the impression of being disengaged from what we're doing, then I will say something and the situation will be rectified, one way or another.  But you know what?  I've found that this almost never happens.  I can count on one hand the number of times that I've encountered a moment involving "player disinterest or dissatisfaction," and those moments do not recur, because the people involved do not appear again.  No, with a bit of lightness and ease of attitude, the violas don't mind holding something for a minute and a half while an electronic prelay does something over top of them.  It's just what's written in their parts, not a source of artistic frustration or boredom.   

 

Anyway, a pointless tangent on something I could easily have misinterpreted.

 

(Still tangential,  but here goes:) I see - and respect - where you're coming from. And I don't disagree. My point was rather centered on my own perception of the orchestra as a living, breathing organism. 

 

To me, the orchestra represents community. I think of it not only as a pool of available sounds, but as a collective of different voices. Different personalities. Different people.

 

What "bothers" me in some of the pieces posted in this thread, is not the simplicity or "uneventfulness" of the individual parts, but rather the lack of real orchestral thinking. 

 

Back in the day, there used to be this prejudice against organists-turned-composers that they would think of the orchestra in terms of stops.

And I think I harbor a similar prejudice against what I feel is a tendency to think of the orchestra as patches or samples. 

 

I get the idea of approaching the orchestra as "pure sound". I don't think it's particularly new (I have a hunch that Wagner saw it similarly), and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. 

I just tend to be more attracted to orchestral music that treats the medium with more curiosity. 

 

 

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Methinks there is a false dichotomy here. 

 

A composer with far greater achievements to his name than you or Marcus I think really nailed this false problem: the compositional process isn't done until the performance is complete. As I recall, our dear Maestro, John Williams conducts and rehearses with pencil in hand, changing and molding right up until he is satisfied.  

His work is pretty good, you both should check it out.

 

Quote

That, to me, is the time, place, and method for engaging the performers, not while composing, not by trying to keep everyone interested at all times through what you're writing

 

 

To artificially break up the writing process from the performance process reeks of arrogance or at least a huge immature blind spot. You two seem intelligent enough that I suspect arrogance, probably for the sake of argument. Both of you seem to think that you know all the variables: what the music should/will sound like (TGP), and what a performer will find interesting (Marcus). 

 

You probably don't. Again, arguably the greatest living American composer has a lifetime of experience and you still see him with pencil in hand with the performers (who also get pencils). 

[Marcus 390]

Blume, I have a feeling you're actually creating more of a false dichotomy than unraveling whatever may presently exist (if any) . 

 

I haven't yet entered a rehearsal without the anticipation of changing -improving- something on the spot. That's merely par for the course. I certainly don't differ from Williams (or most other professional colleagues) in that respect. Whatever gave you any idea to the contrary? 

 

[publicist 4,643]

34 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

You probably don't. Again, arguably the greatest living American composer has a lifetime of experience and you still see him with pencil in hand with the performers (who also get pencils). 

 

The pencil doesn't make the sustained 1,5 minute chord go away. That's happening during the composition process. What you describe is what you get when you send someone like me to the podium.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

24 minutes ago, Marcus said:

Blume, I have a feeling you're actually creating more of a false dichotomy than unraveling whatever may presently exist (if any) . 

 

I haven't yet entered a rehearsal without the anticipation of changing -improving- something on the spot. That's merely par for the course. I certainly don't differ from Williams (or most other professional colleagues) in that respect. Whatever gave you any idea to the contrary? 

 

 

My point being that a lone composer sitting by himself merely academically thinking through what will be interesting to performers, probably isn't writing anything interesting for the people who will perform the music. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Performers should be lucky to be hired these days, and certainly not dare to be critical of the music they are paid to perform.

 

 

[Jilal 569]

Adams and Reich write long sustained chords too and write them in a way that's interesting (and engaging!) performance-wise. E.g. piano's interlocking, the famous call-answer Reich staccato, etc.

[Marcus 390]

Just now, Blumenkohl said:

 

My point being that a lone composer sitting by himself merely academically thinking through what will be interesting to performers, probably isn't writing anything interesting for the people who will perform the music. 

 

I'm not sure I quite understand what "academically thinking through" is meant to convey. I certainly spend a great deal of time contemplating and mulling and obsessing over details, but "academic" seems to imply an intellectual aloofness that is the exact opposite of the kind of performer-conscious writing I'm advocating. 

 

The philosophy is really quite simple: Good writing tends to yield good, often enthusiastic, performances. 

 

I often dream about very spontaneous performance scenarios. More often than not, they entail my being catastrophically behind schedule, where I end up giving simple cue cards to the orchestra, in a sort of quasi improvisation under my direction. When I wake up, I'm usually grateful for the sheltered and slow process of articulating as lovingly and conscientiously as I can music as well as I can write it. And that process is still an active one not only during rehearsals, but often even after a premiere, as time gives one a better perspective of one's work. 

 

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Do you attend parties, banquets, and dinners or lunches with the performers you write for? 

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

Yes I think you misunderstand, Blume.  Composition can still happen at a performance, particularly with film music, though obviously that's not ideal.  My only point is what you've said yourself: writing with the attitudes of needlessly temperamental musicians (rare) in mind is a bland method.  And while my example of a lengthy held chord for violas was a hypothetical one, it should be accepted as readily as anything else by performers.  There's no room for arrogance and self importance in performance, and neither in composition, so rest assured however it reads I intend no arrogance.  My post was really just me arguing with people I haven't seen in decades and probably won't ever see again who taught somewhat archaic things about music.  And yes, it's good to be friends with the performers, as a composer.  

[Marcus 390]

@Blumenkohl: Often, yes. It depends. With orchestra musicians, the socializing you get in conjunction with a premiere or a performance is typically a bit more formal. I like to stay for the after parties, though, and hang out with the players.  Then again, most of my friends are musicians. I just happen to write semi regularly for quite a few of them. 

[Quintus 5,399]

Re: The "generational" argument. 

 

I'll clarify a little. I simply meant that at moment video games have come along some way in terms of their broadening appeal, but the medium is still very much on the fringes of what is considered to be 'mainstream' entertainment. In the eyes of older people gaming is essentially still seen as a hobby for geeks, so it stands to reason that their crafting is for now largely given short shrift, general disinterest and easy dismissal by the ignorant and the uninitiated. I suppose it's perfectly natural. However, the fact is the artistry which goes into the making of modern titles is nevertheless growing more and more sophisticated and worthwhile - inspiring an interest in the many working parts which make up a production, and that includes the music. Players begin to take notice of the underscore and an active appreciation is developed, CD soundtrack albums become available and are collected by fans. Like what happened with film music. But the ignorant and the uninitiated still happily remain indifferent and unimpressed. There is even a open snobbery of it. Like there is with film music. These people don't play games so they have never been 'caught up' in the powerful audiovisual experience which might have nurtured an ear for music they might never have otherwise been exposed to. 

 

I think this is, in part, generational. Why? Because just as movie music has been on the fringes of the mainstream for decades before becoming increasingly accepted by younger listeners (in this YouTube era, no less), there will come a time when the snooty elitists of yesteryear, with their offline 'closed' methods of consuming music, die out; and are replaced by those who have grown up accessing a very large spectrum of music from a much more diverse pool of different mediums than their parents and grandparents ever did. Listeners will simply have been exposed to much more different kinds of music, and they will accept it as the norm. They'll have an eclectic interest in lots of it in ways their analogue mothers and fathers never did.

 

Tldr; in 10 - 20 years there'll be many more people gaming than there are now. Game music will be more readily enjoyed by listeners. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thing were better in the old days though!

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

And you knew where you were then!  Girls were girls and composers were composers.

[publicist 4,643]

And every space movie had a big orchestral tutti as a bouncer. Those were the days.

[KK 3,307]

On 8/28/2016 at 0:11 AM, TheWhiteRider said:

One of Wintory's concert pieces.  Challenging music.

 

 

 

This is lovely. Has a rather Adams-esque tone to it, with his own unique stamp.

[Skelly 261]

On 8/24/2016 at 9:42 PM, Jay said:

Those Harry Potter games have good scores!

 

Indeed! As a lad I often played them just for the music.

The pause screen for the PC version of Chamber of Secrets had this lovely cue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwaLGCV58w0

 

Like Williams, Soule had a distinct style for the first two and switched things up a lot for the third.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

On August 29, 2016 at 10:40 AM, TheWhiteRider said:

Yes I think you misunderstand, Blume.  Composition can still happen at a performance, particularly with film music, though obviously that's not ideal.  My only point is what you've said yourself: writing with the attitudes of needlessly temperamental musicians (rare) in mind is a bland method.  And while my example of a lengthy held chord for violas was a hypothetical one, it should be accepted as readily as anything else by performers.  There's no room for arrogance and self importance in performance, and neither in composition, so rest assured however it reads I intend no arrogance.  

 

My post was really just me arguing with people I haven't seen in decades and probably won't ever see again who taught somewhat archaic things about music.  

 

And yes, it's good to be friends with the performers, as a composer.  

 

Got it. 

 

Also, speaking of elitism in music, have you seen this Reddit post? This particular comment caught my eye: http://www.reddit.com/r/Music/comments/50afjp/after_four_years_of_listening_to_music/d72h44q

[Dixon Hill 4,233]

I avoid Reddit, especially musical discussions.  Is it laughable?

[Quintus 5,399]

I'm much more of a lurker there, but I've grown quite accustomed to Reddit in the last year, it's a great little resource for very specific things I'm interested in. Also the friendliest communities I've encountered online.  

[Jay 37,319]

I don't have a reddit account so have never posted there, but have read a bunch of subreddits.  Lots of info in the Game of Thrones and Mario Maker ones

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Who's TGP?

[Jay 37,319]

http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20100-the-official-username-change-thread/

[Wojo 2,453]

Why does this thread title still mention TGP? 

[Jay 37,319]

Who goes back and edits old thread titles?  What a waste of time

[Wojo 2,453]

How sensitive. Linking to the name change thread is a better use of your time? 

[Will 2,215]

 

I was playing this repeatedly last night. So good. 

[Bilbo 3,709]

Soule's Chamber of Secrets is on fleek. Very good score. Willow Fight 3 is great and I love his Library cues. 

[Jay 37,319]

On 10/22/2016 at 11:54 AM, Bilbo Skywalker said:

Soule's Chamber of Secrets is on fleek. 

 

Thus marked the beginning of the end for JWfan....

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

 

Thus marked the beginning of the end for JWfan....

 

What?

 

No!

 

WHAT?

 

NO!

[Jay 37,319]

It has begun.  The milennials are here.  First this score is "on fleek", next John Williams will be called "the GOAT", then someone will splurge on an expensive box set yelling "YOLO", then the first sample of Episode 8 will make someone say its "Turnt Up"

 

There's no turning back now!

[Incanus 5,713]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

It has begun.  The milennials are here.  First this score is "on fleek", next John Williams will be called "the GOAT", then someone will splurge on an expensive box set yelling "YOLO", then the first sample of Episode 8 will make someone say its "Turnt Up"

 

There's no turning back now!

I don't have any idea what you just said in the above post.

 

I am old, Jason. I don't look it, but I am beginning to feel it in my heart of hearts. Well-preserved indeed! Why, I feel all thin, sort of stretched, if you know what I mean: like butter that has been scraped over too much bread. That can't be right. I need a change, or something.

[Jay 37,319]

It's millennial talk!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Those references make me think more of the current crop of teenagers, whatever that generation's called, not millennials.

[Skelly 261]

At least he's listening to good music.

[Incanus 5,713]

The end is nigh! Repent!

[Jay 37,319]

Just now, Disco Stu said:

Those references make me think more of the current crop of teenagers, whatever that generation's called, not millennials.

 

Oh, hmm, you're probably right.