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The Force Awakens Disney Records OST


Not Mr. Big

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I don't think Lucas was the instigator of the choral writing in the Phantom Menace. It's only in Revenge of the Sith where you feel that Lucas watched Lord of the Rings (which he loved) as well as Gladiator and so on and went "Johnny, do THAT! 110-piece orchestra! Mixed choir! Boy choir! Two Timpanists! Taiko Drums! Moaning woman! All of it!![insert wicked laughter]"

 

Hell, even the album editing was made with the mindset of featuring those elements of the music.  Tracks like "Anakin's Dark Deeds" would even suggest that Lucas and/or Williams not only watched the thing but also has the OST to hand. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas had the Extended Editions around, as well.

 

But at the end of the day I love choral music so I sort of bemoan it's absence. I think the occasional taiko drum is still there, though.

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30 minutes ago, crumbs said:

And the influence in ROTS is undeniable. I'd say Williams has a very healthy level of respect for Howard Shore and what he did.

 

Although to be fair there's some Galdiator in there as well. Attack of the Clones has some Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon in it, as well. It all makes me think that it was more of a push on the behalf of George Lucas, who loved Lord of the Rings.

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What I mean is that as a composer, he was probably more sensitive to the little gestures and the thematic structure, at a time when we all were only scratching the surface. I'm sure that even if he did not like the music, he had probably appreciated the leitmotivic dexterity, and probably also the utilization of voices and none-orchestral instruments.

 

Although maybe I'm wrong. Williams always repeats his saying that his thematic work on Star Wars is "unique in film" which anyone who knows the Middle Earth scores (or even just one of the two trilogies) would understand isn't quite true. Also, didn't Conrad Pope (possibly Williams' biggest collaborator throughout the prequel era) say he didn't see or hear Lord of the Rings even once before he signed on The Hobbit? Maybe Williams is the same.

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16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

What I mean is that as a composer, he was probably more sensitive to the little gestures and the thematic structure, at a time when we all were only scratching the surface. I'm sure that even if he did not like the music, he had probably appreciated the leitmotivic dexterity, and probably also the utilization of Voices and none-orchestral instruments.

 

Possibly.

 

16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Although maybe I'm wrong. Williams always repeats his saying that his thematic work on Star Wars is "unique in film" which anyone who knows his LOTR would know isn't quite true.

 

And it's not even limited to LOTR and SW anyway.

 

16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Also, didn't Conrad Pope (possibly Williams' biggest collaborator throughout the prequel era) say he didn't see or hear Lord of the Rings even once before he signed on The Hobbit? Maybe Williams is the same.

 

Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me.

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26 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

And it's not even limited to LOTR and SW anyway.

 

True, but the size of the catalogue is important. Film composers tend to write a few themes for each film so the audience (which isn't singling out the music) can actually latch unto all of them. Horner said he only writes two or three "themes" for any film.

 

Shore's Middle Earth scores and Williams' Star Wars scores are probably the only works in the repetoire of film that have accomulated a catalogue upward of fifty themes each. And that number, the "density" of the score as it were, is indicative of its intricacy.

 

Now, Williams' themes never earned the same kind of analysis as the Middle Earth ones (although Adams did break-down the first four scores) but it seems like there isn't a whole lot of them: as long as we don't over-analyze every similar gesture we would probably end up with less than sixty themes, thus far, which is less than what there is just in The Hobbit.

 

Maybe Williams just doesn't consider his own thematic work to be in the same idiom as Shore's. He doesn't write themes that can be arranged into sets and subsets in the Operatic tradition (again, so that people don't get them confused) and he leans more to longer statements and even to longer ideas. He also tends, I feel, to use the themes more romantically, especially in the score in question.

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11 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

Maybe Williams just doesn't consider his own thematic work to be in the same idiom as Shore's. He doesn't write themes that can be arranged into sets and subsets in the Operatic tradition (again, so that people don't get them confused) and he leans more to longer statements and even to longer ideas. He also tends, I feel, to use the themes more romantically, especially in the score in question.

 

Star Wars has always had a healthy mix of long-lined themes and shorter motifs. I've never done a scientific breakdown comparing the scores but I feel like JW has leaned on shorter motifs lately rather than long-lined themes, perhaps due to modern film editing restricting his ability to present longer ideas?

 

On first glance, TFA appears to be filled with shorter motifs:

  • Kylo Ren's primary theme (often just the first 5 notes, 9 altogether)
  • Kylo Ren's "tragic" theme (8 notes)
  • Finn's Motif (repeating action motif that doesn't really develop)
  • Poe's Theme (primarily 11 notes but receives a nice presentation in the credits)
  • The Map motif (2 notes?)

And even Rey's Theme is a combination of three different ideas, two short motifs and the melody. Throughout the score it often receives only one of these ideas, The Scavenger being a rare example of all three in succession.

 

But we also received more developed themes in the Resistence March, the Starkiller Theme, even Jedi Steps. Off the top of my head that seems thematically richer than ROTS, where I only recall three new "themes" (Anakin's Betrayal, General Grievous, Battle of the Heroes).

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3 hours ago, crumbs said:

Star Wars has always had a healthy mix of long-lined themes and shorter motifs. I've never done a scientific breakdown comparing the scores but I feel like JW has leaned on shorter motifs lately rather than long-lined themes, perhaps due to modern film editing restricting his ability to present longer ideas?

 

On first glance, TFA appears to be filled with shorter motifs.

 

Williams has been gravitating towards shorter ideas ever since the prequels. He usually highlights one long-lined theme (Rey's, in this instance) as the main theme of each installment, but also writes one or two other such ideas (the ressistance, here), and the rest tend to be more cellular.

 

We have yet to see what becomes of the Jedi Steps in terms of thematic application. That it has a concert suite (not unlike the Flag Parade) doesn't necessarily make it a leitmotif. It needs to recur throughout the scores proper.

 

I don't know about Starkiller, either. But that's the problem about his scores (post Phantom Menace) not having a definitive analysis of themes. Every similar (but not necessarily identical) gesture becomes a leitmotif.

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Its not definitive in that he sat down with the composer and discussed his intentions, but Doug Adams' analysis of the first three scores and the Phantom Menace seems pretty thorough to me. At the time, he also would have had Matessino's liner notes to hand, too. 

 

In fact, I think that if anything, even Soug errs to the side of inclusiveness. e.g. classifying the B-Section of Luke's theme as a separate leitmotif? An action Ostinato that is merely one of the accompaniments of the Rebel Fanfare? The Flag Parade? Even the "Unknown chords" seem to be more part of Williams' style of evoking the unknown (case in point, the map motif from The Force Awakens) than part of the thematic construction of the score. Also, he listed Victory Celebrations, thinking that if Williams went through the trouble of rescoring it, than it will probably recur as a theme in the prequels, which it didn't so we can easily knock that one off of the list.

 

As for the two later scores, I think one can gather a list of leitmotifs on good authority based on John Takis' inspection of Attack of the Clones, and a later issue regarding Revenge of the Sith which also mentions parts of Attack of the Clones.

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17 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

In fact, I think that if anything, even Soug errs to the side of inclusiveness. e.g. classifying the B-Section of Luke's theme as a separate leitmotif? An action Ostinato that is merely one of the accompaniments of the Rebel Fanfare? The Flag Parade? Even the "Unknown chords" seem to be more part of Williams' style of evoking the unknown (case in point, the map motif from The Force Awakens) than part of the thematic construction of the score. Also, he listed Victory Celebrations, thinking that if Williams went through the trouble of rescoring it, than it will probably recur as a theme in the prequels, which it didn't so we can easily knock that one off of the list.

 

I found this a questionable of classifying themes even with his LOTR writings. But accept them because he obviously did work with Shore to some extent.

 

 

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In fact, with Lord of the Rings there are even more themes that simply do not recur on the Complete Recordings, which the book focuses on.

 

The OST revisits the choral material from "Forth Eorlingas", which is clearly a leitmotif for Shadowfax, and the Rarities have the Numenore theme (which Doug had, at one point, put in his menu of themes as an "unused theme") and several instances of the Emyn Muil choral material.

 

There's also the development of the Hobbit Outline under the Forth-age Shire material.

 

Returning to Star Wars, however, I do think that we can use Adams' et al's analyses to compile a list of fifty-some leitmotifs that is quite complete, even without having the composer's intentions to hand.

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We also have a weird situation with TFA in that we can't actually analyse Williams' score properly until we hear the entirety of it.

 

He wrote nearly 3 hours of music and that includes discarded renditions of many new motifs. Han Solo's Death was replaced with the Starkiller Theme, for one example.

 

As written, the score seems like a complete mess. I'm amazed that, in "complete" form (OST + FYC + Lego) the score is as coherent as it is.

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If it was just patched over his death is it really a leitmotif, though?

 

I think by listening to the soundtrack and listening to the movie with intent we can get a pretty good idea of the thematic work. Although some stuff like Jedi Steps would require hearing the next score or two for sake of context, in order to properly classify, as well.

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It wasn't really patched over his death. Torn Apart (Film Version) was a complete reworking of the original version. The film combines the two, with a heavy weighting on the revised version.

 

Jedi Steps is just too damn good a theme for Williams to discard, but he's done stranger things. That he started writing TLJ less than a year after finishing TFA gives me hope that there'll be a greater thematic continuity in this trilogy than the prequels. And given that TLJ begins right where TFA finishes, it seems only natural that JW follows through by developing Jedi Steps into a signature theme for the sequel trilogy.

 

But I won't be surprised if we never hear it again and he writes something completely different for TLJ, just as he discarded Darth Vader's/The Death Star's motifs after SW and wrote the The Imperial March.

 

Snoke seems the most likely for thematic enhancement, considering how abstract his music was in TFA. Surely he receives a more meaty theme in TLJ; Johnson's approach to his character is intriguing, so it'll be fun to see how JW presents that.

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I think those kind of hick-ups in continuity are part of his attempt to base each episode to the best of his ability on new thematic material, so we end with themes and motifs like the Imperial motif, the Droid motif or even Anakin's theme being all but discarded between episodes.

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Yet we end up with bizarre recurrences like the Trade Federation theme over the reveal of the clones, or Duel of the Fates over Anakin's search for Shmi.

 

Arguably the latter fits thematically, given what that theme represents (and where Anakin is heading as a result of Shmi's death), but they strike me as "George Requests."

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Well, if you strech the first one, you could draw parallels between the droid and the clone army. Both sides fight with expendable, programmed, mindless drones (I know clones get personalities in Clone Wars and such, but for the sake of this argument, I'm just looking at the imagery and details in AotC), but the Republic is actually expending lives instead of metal, so they may be worse. The parallel between the cloning facility on Kamino and the droid factory on Geonosis is pretty striking if you think about it, if the horrible CG and slapstick doesn't draw your attention away. The Trade Federation theme for the clone army reinforces this. Wow, I never thought I'd say this, but AotC actually may have at least one little thing going for it.

 

Of course, it may well be a case of Princess Ben, because they needed a big march and there was no republic theme, so the only other one was used.

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... or George just said, "Hey, John, the Trade Federation theme might sound good here!" :P

 

Just as Peter Jackson told Howard Shore, "you know, the Nazgul theme would sound really cool here..."

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Its called using the theme romantically. And, to be fair, virtually all composers do it, and I actually like is when its used sparingly. Although I'd say Williams does this a fair bit more than others, and quite possibly more often then he should.

 

The Force Awakens is one of the worst offenders in that regard. The Rebel Fanfare is used throughout as a theme for the Millennium Falcon. A lot of those are by the design of Williams himself, rather than the director forcing his hand. In Attack of the Clones, the Duel of the Fates is there even in the album version. The Princess theme for Ben's death is another example, as is Yoda's theme in Cloud City. Hell, in the original Star Wars, the Force theme was just Ben's theme. Then what the hell is it doing in the Binary Sunset scene or during the Throne Room sequence? Even later, when it became more of a theme for the force, it isn't always warranted, e.g. when an AT-AT is knocked down or when Dooku escapes. I guess one could find explanations for those instances, but they're all very tenuous. They are just used for their romantic effect, not for their thematic meaning.

 

Spin off composers like Giacchino sure aren't helping when they use The Force theme for wide-shots of ships taking off or for Bail Organa. And of course tracked music like the "Arena March" doesn't help either.

 

The Nazgul theme I would say isn't on par with that. It is entirely consistent with the way its used in the Prologue to Fellowship and on Amon Hen. Its also consistent  with the use of the Ringwraith chords under a lot of the Goblin and Warg music. Hell, Azog's own theme is a variation on one of the accompaniments that you'd often find under the Nazgul music. We need not forget that the Nazgul theme is derived from another theme: The Power of Mordor, which is fitting. 

 

Gondor Reborn, however....

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45 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Spin off composers like Giacchino sure aren't helping when they use The Force theme for wide-shots of ships taking off or for Bail Organa

 

I'm fairly certain they were talking about Obi-Wan during that scene. ;)

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Hell, in the original Star Wars, the Force theme was just Ben's theme. Then what the hell is it doing in the Binary Sunset scene or during the Throne Room sequence?

 

Well, I would disagree with your strict assessment of the theme.  Its use is most definitely consistent with representing the idea of the Force in a broad sense, and through it, it can also represent Ben in a more specific sense in Star Wars.  It completely works when taken in snapshot of the entire franchise, and doesn't stick out at all compared to the other examples you mentioned.

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Well, we do have a good idea of the composer's intentions from interviews, LP liner notes, etc. We also know that Williams' typically assigns themes to characters first and foremost. Williams refered to the theme as "Ben Kenobi's theme" although he did mention that it also refers to the Force, but it's clear from the notes that, in Williams' mind at the time, the theme was primarily for Ben. When Empire's LP came about, it was changed into "The Force theme."

 

Now, leitmotifs never have a one-to-one relationship with their subjects. They tend to stand for a number of closely associated ideas, often ranging from a broader meaning to a narrower one, and the broader meaning isnt always the dominant one.

 

The question is, therefore, which of the two applications is the most prevalent in the scores. In the original Star Wars, the theme is first for Ben, and has a broader association with the Force. In later scores it (gradually) goes the opposite way.

 

Anyhow, the point remains that Williams' often uses his themes as a suggestion of mood. It's not nearly as much as to make his thematic construction meaningless or anything like that, but to my mind it happens a bit too often.

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I definitely remember that, but I don't know if he didn't hear the music. He did say that Howard was famous as a "one man band" although that's true for many of his projects; and that doesn't necessarily apply to Williams himself.

 

To be fair to Conrad and possibly to Williams, Doug once said that they don't hang around quite the same social circles as Howard, and naturally that effects whether they'd be inclined to hear each other's works.

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On 9/23/2017 at 3:19 AM, Chen G. said:

 

From the few pictures of the recording sessions that have surfaced, it seems he is keeping the same 85-piece orchestra. We still don't know if the Hollywood Chorale is involved.

 

I don't want to come across as too pedantic, but this is the third or fourth suggestion I've seen here recently regarding the size of the orchestra on TFA. I don't think it was prequel-sized or anything, but assuming a full string section (60-64 pieces), a normal woodwind section and large brass section (6/4/4/2, I think, based on the videos that were released, though it could just be one tuba), plus the percussion, two harps, and two keyboards, that's pushing 100 pieces. Is there a firm source on an average ensemble size for this score? Just curious.

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http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/201512/17235/

 

I'm almost sure they returned to the string roster of the original: 14.12.10.8.6 and two harps. The brass section is six horns, four trumpets and trombones and a single tuba, I believe. The woodwinds I'm quite certain are 3.3.3.3. Two keyboardists, a timpanist and the rest are on percussion.

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Thanks for that; I think I vaguely remember reading that article around the time the film came out. I'm not necessarily surprised to learn it was a smaller string section this time.

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Williams only used a full string section in the prequels which, along with his expanded high woodwinds and percussion (for depicting machines), explains the size of the orchestra in the latter two prequel scores. Episode III also had two timpanists, probably because Lucas liked LOTR so much, although I believe Williams also did this with the contemporary War of the Worlds.

 

The forces for Force Awakens (and, it would seem, for The Last Jedi) are really no smaller than those deployed in the original. Its just the LSO's brass section (8.4.3.2 I believe) that gave it more volume, but it also had less woodwinds.

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12 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Williams only used a full string section in the prequels which, along with his expanded high woodwinds and percussion (for depicting machines), explains the size of the orchestra in the latter two prequel scores. Episode III also had two timpanists, probably because Lucas liked LOTR so much.

 

The forces for Force Awakens (and, it would seem, for The Last Jedi) are really no smaller than those deployed in the original. Its just the LSO's brass section (8.4.3.2 I believe) that gave it more volume, but it also had less woodwinds.

I do remember seeing the two timpanists in some of the ROTS scoring session photos from the old Hyperspace site, but I never did figure out what the second one was doing, even after poring over the leaked sheet music. Ah well. It really isn't worth worrying about.

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