.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

Yea seriously!

Onto DOS deleted footage?

[Faleel 5,341]

You could just add it to your list of sources under longer Radagast at Dol Guldur, and maybe get an image from it if you can.

I'll try to look into that. Do you remember in which specific EE documentary that footage could be seen?

10:05 of "Bastion of the Greenwood - RHOSGOBEL"

around 8:04 there is footage of him on his bunny sled too.

[Smaug The Iron 510]

Wasn't the original plan for the audience not to see Azog until the "Out of the Frying-Pan" scene anyway, for more of a shock?

Where did that idea come from?

While its true that originally, we wouldn't have seen the Azanulbizar flashback until after the Frying Pan sequence, there was always an orc shown spying on them from the ledge, and then chasing them into Rivendell. With the weatherop scene not existing until during pickups, that means that original orc had to either have been Azog, or Yazneg was dispensed in a different way that we've never heard about. Which is more likely?

I think it was only Fimbul that was chasing them to Rivendel.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

The only confusing aspect is why Tery Notary was shown filming as Yazneg for the warg chase in some EE documentary, since I would have that would would have been all Rawls there, with Notary only needed for the Weathertop scene! Ah, the head hurts indeed!

[Barnald 365]

No one is disputing that Yazneg was added after the Azog plan changed. He clearly borrows a lot from the Rawls Azog design - namely the armour - but it's obviously a different actor in different prosthetics.

[Faleel 5,341]

around 8:04 there seems to be (more?) footage of him traveling there on his bunny sled too.

[Bofur01 245]

Wasn't the original plan for the audience not to see Azog until the "Out of the Frying-Pan" scene anyway, for more of a shock?

Where did that idea come from?

While its true that originally, we wouldn't have seen the Azanulbizar flashback until after the Frying Pan sequence, there was always an orc shown spying on them from the ledge, and then chasing them into Rivendell. With the weatherop scene not existing until during pickups, that means that original orc had to either have been Azog, or Yazneg was dispensed in a different way that we've never heard about. Which is more likely?

I'm 80% sure the idea was true, cannot remember where, I've seen far too much stuff to remember...

The spying Orc would surely not have been seen, as the night camp scene wouldn't have existed if the Azanulbizar flashback were destined for later.

And, um, the other stuff I can't explain, but the Yazneg design is clearly not the same as old Azog, everything except the armour is different.

[Barnald 365]

Here's my thoughts on Radagast deleted/changed material:

Based on the soundtrack, I reckon his introduction was meant to play through with him riding onwards to Dol Guldur, perhaps having a brief fight with some spiders along the way. You would see him 'park' his sled, cross over, and then encounter the Necromancer, but the scene would cut with the close up on the Necromancer, leaving us to ponder the fate of Radagast until his arrival at the Trollshaws. Obviously, the flashback there would not have been as extensive, probably just showing his escape (if at all).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

Here's my thoughts on Radagast deleted/changed material:

Based on the soundtrack, I reckon his introduction was meant to play through with him riding onwards to Dol Guldur, perhaps having a brief fight with some spiders along the way. You would see him 'park' his sled, cross over, and then encounter the Necromancer, but the scene would cut with the close up on the Necromancer, leaving us to ponder the fate of Radagast until his arrival at the Trollshaws. Obviously, the flashback there would not have been as extensive, probably just showing his escape (if at all).

I believe BB's video for this track is right. Originally they thought they'd show Radagast and the Witch King at the end of his introduction, but later moved it, so Shore scored the same scene twice, and put both versions on the (Special Edition) OST.

[Faleel 5,341]

Which is pretty much what Barny said...

[Jay 37,322]

Ah, yes indeed.

[Barnald 365]

I think it's fairly obvious the OOTFP scene was meant to be the big reveal of Azog. Thorin hasn't seen him before that. The audience only sees him because we've already seen him at Azanulbizar.

Plus consider this - It's one thing to introduce your big villain halfway through a film, but another entirely to introduce him in the final act. I can see why they changed it with the move to three films.

[Faleel 5,341]

Here are some snapshots of the unused Radagast footage in the EE documentary I was talking about:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9RzZjTnY5ZzhVN0U/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9TmpMSUREaEp6YzQ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9ckQwQjFCTXBCRHM/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9RDVNYUVwTHZTcGM/view?usp=sharing

[Jay 37,322]

I think it's fairly obvious the OOTFP scene was meant to be the big reveal of Azog. Thorin hasn't seen him before that. The audience only sees him because we've already seen him at Azanulbizar.

Plus consider this - It's one thing to introduce your big villain halfway through a film, but another entirely to introduce him in the final act. I can see why they changed it with the move to three films.

OK.

BUT

If it was always Yazneg and NOT Azog who was to be the orc spying on the ledge, and chasing them into Rivendell....... then why does that orc wear the same armor as the Azog that was originally shot for the battle of Azanulbizar (before it was replaced with the CGI Azog)?

And how did Yazneg originally die?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,322]

Here are some snapshots of the unused Radagast footage in the EE documentary I was talking about:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9RzZjTnY5ZzhVN0U/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9TmpMSUREaEp6YzQ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9ckQwQjFCTXBCRHM/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxQSwI5aPja9RDVNYUVwTHZTcGM/view?usp=sharing

I don't get why PJ actually removed something potentially interesting like this after expanded the film from 2 to 3, when this would have actually enriched the first film he just removed the whole ending of!

[Faleel 5,341]

Technically the essentials of that scene (what we see of it anyway) is still in the film later on when Radagast is talking to Gandalf.

[Barnald 365]

I think it's fairly obvious the OOTFP scene was meant to be the big reveal of Azog. Thorin hasn't seen him before that. The audience only sees him because we've already seen him at Azanulbizar.

But that's the thing: we wouldn't have seen him before the OOTFP sequence, I believe, since we wouldn't have seen the Azanulbizar sequence before that.

Exactly, that's my point. That, coupled with the stubborn obliviousness of Thorin and the ominous looks after the flashback (and of course the Orcs spying on them thereafter), lets the audience know Azog is alive, so we may as well see him after that before the climactic scene.

[Jay 37,322]

Technically the essentials of that scene (what we see of it anyway) is still in the film later on when Radagast is talking to Gandalf.

I suppose. Overall, I wish Radagast had been given more to do after the High Fells...

I think it's fairly obvious the OOTFP scene was meant to be the big reveal of Azog. Thorin hasn't seen him before that. The audience only sees him because we've already seen him at Azanulbizar.

But that's the thing: we wouldn't have seen him before the OOTFP sequence, I believe, since we wouldn't have seen the Azanulbizar sequence before that.

Exactly, that's my point. That, coupled with the stubborn obliviousness of Thorin and the ominous looks after the flashback (and of course the Orcs spying on them thereafter), lets the audience know Azog is alive, so we may as well see him after that before the climactic scene.

But how do you explain that the orc shown spying on them and then leading the warg chase before Rivendell is never seen during the Frying Pan sequence?

[Barnald 365]

I think it's fairly obvious the OOTFP scene was meant to be the big reveal of Azog. Thorin hasn't seen him before that. The audience only sees him because we've already seen him at Azanulbizar.

Plus consider this - It's one thing to introduce your big villain halfway through a film, but another entirely to introduce him in the final act. I can see why they changed it with the move to three films.

OK.

BUT

If it was always Yazneg and NOT Azog who was to be the orc spying on the ledge, and chasing them into Rivendell....... then why does that orc wear the same armor as the Azog that was originally shot for the battle of Azanulbizar (before it was replaced with the CGI Azog)?

And how did Yazneg originally die?

Was it always Yazneg? Could it not have been Fimbul, and they changed it? You could easily re-do this scene I'm sure. We know there was always a night camp scene (first trailer), so this scene of the Orcs spotting them could have always been in the film and retained a sense of mystery, as we wouldn't know who the 'master' in question is without seeing the Azanulbizar flashback.

Technically the essentials of that scene (what we see of it anyway) is still in the film later on when Radagast is talking to Gandalf.

I suppose. Overall, I wish Radagast had been given more to do after the High Fells...

I think it's fairly obvious the OOTFP scene was meant to be the big reveal of Azog. Thorin hasn't seen him before that. The audience only sees him because we've already seen him at Azanulbizar.

But that's the thing: we wouldn't have seen him before the OOTFP sequence, I believe, since we wouldn't have seen the Azanulbizar sequence before that.

Exactly, that's my point. That, coupled with the stubborn obliviousness of Thorin and the ominous looks after the flashback (and of course the Orcs spying on them thereafter), lets the audience know Azog is alive, so we may as well see him after that before the climactic scene.

But how do you explain that the orc shown spying on them and then leading the warg chase before Rivendell is never seen during the Frying Pan sequence?

As above. But I will say this - it is very possible that we were to get our first glimpse of Azog at that moment, since it would not ruin the narrative surprise. We would have no idea who he is, of his significance to Thorin and the story. He would be fairly enigmatic. But I don't buy that he was ever involved in the chase to Rivendell.

[Jay 37,322]

Does Fimbull appear during the Frying Pan sequence?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yep, during a brief shot, if I remember correctly.

[Barnald 365]

I'm pretty sure he does

[Jay 37,322]

Interesting.

So maybe Fimbull lead the charge in the warg chase originally, but for some reason PJ felt it would be better if that first orc leader was murdered by Azog. So he had Terry Notary re-film all close-ups of the leading orc during the warg chase, in the old Azog costume as a new orc named Yazneg? And then had him murdered by CGI Azog on Weathertop?

How odd!

[Barnald 365]

That's what I'm thinking. I think he decided Fimbul didn't cut it as a prominent Orc leader when Azog wasn't around (perhaps he came to dislike the design during editing - it's not especially striking), since I also suspect Fimbul was originally to lead the Orcs during the attack on Lake-town in DoS, before he added Bolg.

[Jay 37,322]

Oh wow, now that's interesting. And logical, since we know originally he planned on having Bolg stay in Dol Guldur until the Battle of Five Armies started.

[Barnald 365]

Well I think we all agreed that while Legolas vs Bolg was added in pick-ups, it was always the plan to have an attack on Lake-town, where presumably Fimbul would be killed, as he is in the film.

The 'Bolg' thing is confusing. Consider this - it must have been Azog who remained in Dol Guldur at that point (when Conan Stevens played him), which makes perfect sense if we consider Fimbul led the Orcs presumably during the barrel escape and then onwards into Lake-town. Then, you anticipate, Azog would lead his armies to Erebor in BOTFA. Originally, I think PJ had no plans to include Bolg in these films at all.

But then Stevens' Azog became Bolg, and Bolg was to be a torturer/warden of Dol Guldur. Azog was now free to lead the attack during the barrel race, relegating Fimbul's role. But then PJ changed his mind again and decided he wanted Azog to remain at Dol Guldur (as per the original plan). So now he decides to create a new Bolg as an adversary for Legolas, and put him in Azog's place during the barrel escape and then onwards to the attack on Lake-town.

I need a lie down.

[Jay 37,322]

No, I don't think that's right.

Remember, all the scenes with Gandalf away from the company post-Rivendell and pre-Erebor were shuffled around in their placement. Originally, Film 1 was structured like this:

Everyone at Rivendell -> Gandalf and Radagast explore High Fells while Company deals with Stone Giants then is captured by goblins -> company w/ Gandalf go from Misty Mountain to Carrock to Beorn's to outside Mirkwood -> Gandalf (and briefly Radagast) explore Dol Goldur while company makes its way through Mirkwood then is captured by elves -> Film 1 climaxes with the Forest River Chase (and has the original Bilbo/Thorin bromance scene as the denouement).

So basically, originally we would have been shown Gandalf meeting Thrain (played by the original actor) and then getting captured by BOLG in Dol Guldur, while the Company is chased by AZOG down the Forest River in Film 1. At the end of the film, Gandalf would have been captured by Sauron for his cliffhanger, and the company would have Bard pointing an arrow at them as their cliffhanger.

The original plan was certainly that Bolg was like the chief orc at Dol Guldur, and Azog was the guy out roaming the countryside to find and kill Thorin and his men. The scene outside Beorn's in DOS where they switch places was entirely pickups.

Anyway, god knows what Azog and Bolg would have originally gotten up to in Film 2, and when...Did Galadriel originally kill Bolg when saving Gandalf? Which orc led the Dol Guldur army? Which orc led the Gundabad army? Was either one present for the Lake-town attack, or was that entirely Fimbull?

[Faleel 5,341]

I know that PJ said that NuBolg replaced Fimbul (or just empty space) in the "They have crossed the River!" scene after the barrels in the Commentary.

[Barnald 365]

No, I don't think that's right.

Remember, all the scenes with Gandalf away from the company post-Rivendell and pre-Erebor were shuffled around in their placement. Originally, Film 1 was structured like this:

Everyone at Rivendell -> Gandalf and Radagast explore High Fells while Company deals with Stone Giants then is captured by goblins -> company w/ Gandalf go from Misty Mountain to Carrock to Beorn's to outside Mirkwood -> Gandalf (and briefly Radagast) explore Dol Goldur while company makes its way through Mirkwood then is captured by elves -> Film 1 climaxes with the Forest River Chase (and has the original Bilbo/Thorin bromance scene as the denouement).

So basically, originally we would have been shown Gandalf meeting Thrain (played by the original actor) and then getting captured by BOLG in Dol Guldur, while the Company is chased by AZOG down the Forest River in Film 1. At the end of the film, Gandalf would have been captured by Sauron for his cliffhanger, and the company would have Bard pointing an arrow at them as their cliffhanger.

God knows what Azog and Bolg would have originally gotten up to in Film 2, and when...Did Galadriel originally kill Bolg when saving Gandalf? Which orc led the Dol Guldur army? Which orc led the Gundabad army? Was either one present for the Lake-town attack, or was that entirely Fimbull?

I think you're talking about the film at a much later stage of development. AFAIK, in the beginning there was Conan Stevens' Azog, and that was that. No Bolg. And again, I think that Stevens only filmed scenes in the knowledge that he was Azog - everything else would follow later.

I think, when talking about these films, we have to be careful with saying 'originally' and such. Clearly, its evolution was very varied and rapid.

I'm starting to think that before adding Bolg, and when Azog was still part of the river chase (so the version of DoS from early 2013, when the trailer was released), Azog would either have been recalled to Dol Guldur and told Fimbul to continue to chase (so the scenes with Gandalf could play out as normal), or he would go with Fimbul and then it would be his leaving Lake-town (without fighting) that drew Legolas away (after all, something must have done?). I'm really not convinced by this however, since I'd have to wonder who would lead the troops from Dol Guldur, as I doubt they'd have Azog going all the way back there. Unless, of course, he would ride to Gundabad and bring his troops from there, and Legolas would follow him? Again, this is unlikely, since we know they filmed Legolas on the shores post-Smaug attack in the first block.

As for Bolg, well, the biggest indicator of his role as initially conceived is the blurb from his action figure, which emerged around summer 2012. I believe he is referred to as the spawn of Azog, the torturer of Dol Guldur. It also says something about him meeting an unexpected foe. Now - was this Gandalf? Was it Galadriel? Beorn? I'm guessing Galadriel, but who knows?

[Jay 37,322]

I'm saying that when filmed, and during post-production, when there was still 2 films, the structure was as I said above. In the rough cut of Film 1 that would have existed just before the split, John Rawls played Azog, who attacks them at the Frying Pan Scene, is seen in the Azanulbizar flashback, and then chases them down the Forest River. Conan Stevens plays Bolg, who is also seen in the flashback, then is shown in Dol Guldur with Gandalf.

Then around the same time, PJ split the films from 2 to 3 and decided he didn't like the design of his primary villain, so everything got changed and muddled and confusing...

[Barnald 365]

Is there any point in me contesting this, or do you know this for sure from inside info?

In that case, I guess Azog would have gone on to Lake-town. Come to think of it, Stevens must have been aware of the change, as he must have filmed those scenes with Gandalf and Galadriel, so presumably he would have died there.

[Jay 37,322]

You guys may be right that maybe Fimbull led the Lake-town attack in the original Film 2, though. I have no idea.

[Barnald 365]

If you're right about Azog, could it be possible that he left Fimbul after the barrels, went back to Dol Guldur, arrived just after the capture of Gandalf, left there with his armies as Gandalf is tied up, and thus was absent during the showdown at Dol Guldur?

Actually, this makes sense to me, since it explains Azog's logic better. He knows the company have made it to Lake-town, and thus essentially Erebor. This would be the catalyst for him to bring his armies to finish the job, because otherwise we never find out why he does this in the film. Smaug isn't dead by the time he sets out, so obviously it's not in response to that. He hasn't heard anything from Bolg and his crew. Do we suppose that Sauron dispatches him with the army, to safeguard Smaug? That seems logical but if you had Azog coming back after the barrel race it would allow us to understand his reasoning also.

[Jay 37,322]

Wow, I like it!

[Faleel 5,341]

Referring to DOS:

In the appendices there is footage of Tauriel performing a sort of surgery on Kili and Bofur fainting and Sigrid waking him up with cold water.

[Jay 37,322]

So let's see if we can piece this together....

ORIGINAL FILM 1

1. Prologue and early Bilbo/Company adventure same as we know it

2. Some orc (Azog/Yazneg/Fimbull... probably Fimbull) spots the company during their journey, letting the audience know they're being followed

3. That same orc (probably Fimbull) chases them on the plains before they get to Rivendell

4. No orcs are seen while the company is at Rivendell, or while they go through the Misty Mountains, etc. The King's scribe being sent away because someone he knows would like to know Thorin's in the mountain is the first hint to the audience that it's really important to SOMEONE to find and kill them

5. Meanwhile, Gandalf finds evidence of opened tombs in the High Fells, indicating a possibility that previously-dead beings could be being brought back to life by THE NECROMANCER

6. The company escapes Goblintown, but outside the Misty Mountains, there's a HOLY SHIT moment where the orcs show up again, and learn that AZOG is alive!

7. They escape the orcs, get flown to the carrock, and meet Beorn. There, the Azanulbizar flashback is shown, explaining who Azog is and why its a surprise he's alive

8. They make their way from Beorn's to Mirkwood, where they get captured by Elves.

9. Meanwhile, Gandalf has explored Dol Guldur, is attacked by Thrain, and then has a HOLY SHIT moment when he finds out The Necromancer is actually SAURON!!

10. Bilbo frees the company from the elves, but AZOG has found them again, and chases them down the river.

11. Cliffhanger ending: Gandalf captured in Dol Guldur, rest of the company at the mercy of a stranger with a bow....

ORIGINAL FILM 2

1. The company meets Bard who sneaks them into Lake-town. Fimbull is shown to be hot on their scent.

2. Azog, pissed the company got away from him, returns to Dol Guldur and decides to rally his armies to attack The Lonely Mountain; they leave.

3. Bolg is going to kill Gandalf, but he is saved by Galadriel. Sauron reveals himself, and the fact that he's brought THE NINE back to life. The White Council defeats him.

4. The company makes their way to Erebor, leaving Fili/Kili/etc behind

5. Gandalf departs Radagast, sets out to meet the company at Erebor.

6. Tauriel and Legolas save Fili/Kili, etc from an attack on Lake-town by Fimbull, while Bilbo is inside Erebor meeting Smaug

7. Smaug leaves Erebor and destroys Lake-town, Bard kills Smaug.

8. Fili/Kili etc reunite with the other dwarves, Gandalf reaches Dale

9. Bolg, having fled Dol Goldur after Sauron's defeat, rallies the Gundabad armies to march on the mountain

10. The big Battle and everything else happens more or less as we have seen.

Something like that?

[Faleel 5,341]

I heard that Gandalf fighting the Nine was in there somewhere.

[Jay 37,322]

I was just thinking about that, actually! It's pretty lame in the final film how Gandalf gets sledded away from the whole kerfuffle and the other three wizards fight The Nine without him and Radagast.

[Faleel 5,341]

I wonder Gandalf fighting the Nine was what originally killed Thrain, instead of Sauron...

[Jay 37,322]

Yea, I have no idea if Thrain was still alive at the original end of Film 1 or not

Also, I have a feeling there was originally meant to be more about Sauron actually necromancing dead beings, as well as that Witch King blade, than was finally shown, but I dunno if that's list-worthy.

[Barnald 365]

Gandalf should have fought the Nine, during which Thrain died trying to help him. As Gandalf was gaining an advantage, Sauron should have appeared and done all that shit. Then, in the third film, when the Orc is interrogating Gandalf, the Witch-king should intervene and begin a conversation with Gandalf. This works on several levels: 1) It would offer a chance for some much-needed exposition and details about motives; 2) It would add substance to their rivalry in LOTR (I know people aren't big on LOTR 'callbacks', but this would be good I think, since the stuff in ROTK sort of comes out of nowhere). We could find out about what Sauron is doing there, his building work in Mordor, more about the Nazgul, more about the rings, why Sauron has utilized Azog, his intentions for Smaug and Erebor, etc. Then, just when things are getting heated and bad for Gandalf, Galadriel would emerge, causing the WK to cower in fear and retreat further into Dol Guldur.

I have some thoughts about how the rest of the scene should have played out (i.e., differently), but that's all I can be arsed to post for now. But it would be followed up by a White Council scene at the end in Rivendell, where Elrond would confirm that the Dunedain have heard from the Rangers of Ithilien that Barad-dur is being rebuilt, etc.

[Jay 37,322]

Hey, that sounds good too!

[Barnald 365]

Yea, I have no idea if Thrain was still alive at the original end of Film 1 or not

I think there is a great deal of merit in your plan, but, as I said, the production was clearly so fluid it's impossible to know if that particular two-film plan was ever in place at one time. I certainly suspect all of those ideas were in a version of the two/three film plans at some point though.

You know what might (I emphasize might) have been interesting? If they had gone to Barrow-downs early in their journey, and had an encounter with the Wights. Obviously it's not canon, but it would be a nice chance to see something omitted from LOTR, and, more importantly, would give Gandalf a more convincing hint that some evil had returned to these lands than merely some trolls coming down from the mountains. It could have made for a pretty effective set-piece as well. Then, having heard of Radagast's encounter, that would add more weight to the White Council meeting and his decision to go back to the High Fells.

I mean, if they were going to lift Gandalf battling the Nazgul from LOTR, why not take some other stuff? Better made-up stuff modelled on Tolkien than completely made-up bollocks!

[Jay 37,322]

Maybe someday we'll get a deleted scenes reel which just dumps all the footage replaced by pickups or otherwise unused.

[Faleel 5,341]

In reference to the alternate Traveling Montage, I would assume that the "Rain/Five Wizards" scene would have replaced part of the "World Is Ahead > Abandoned Farmhouse" cut then.

[Jay 37,322]

The rain / Five Wizards scene was created during pickups.