Star Trek Discovery

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I'm not bovvehd

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

25 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

NO! Game of Thrones works! The production is tight. Even if you hate the concept, if you randomly tune in to a scene it transfers an emotional mindset to you. 

 

You don't understand. I'm not saying it's anywhere near GOT in quality. I'm saying they're trying to make it GOT, and it's not, it's Star Trek. 

 

What works for one show isn't necessarily going to work for another, even when it's done right (and it's being done wrong in this case).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

An unmitigated disaster! The death of Star Trek!

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

3 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

I have to say, for a show that's as serialised as this one is, they do seem to drop major plot points pretty easily...

 

 

The timing of the show is all over the place, and that goes hand in hand with the score spotting. Those alone are enough to give it an unbalanced, unfocused and (not positively) enigmatic atmosphere. It doesn't seem to be deliberate either, yet it also seems too obvious to be a complete accident. Or consequent enough to be artistic, in whatever sense of the word.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is the music doing anything for you, Marian? For me its just there.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

51 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

It doesn't seem to be deliberate either, yet it also seems too obvious to be a complete accident. Or consequent enough to be artistic, in whatever sense of the word.

 

Yeah. They clearly were influenced by the GOT opening sequence and theme, and now I think this is their attempt at GOT style plotting...i.e. have different characters with different arcs and different agendas doing their own thing, and eventually it will all come together.

 

And there's nothing wrong with this approach, except that it doesn't work on a starship based show and really isn't the way Trek stories have typically been told.  

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

DS9 had a semi-serialized story style and it worked great.

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I really do prefer semi-serialization.  There have been great shows that are fully serialized of course, but an episode of television that functions as its own story with beginning/middle/end and advances a larger narrative is a beautiful thing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes! 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It's why I don't generally like Netflix original dramas.  IMO they're the worst offenders of having episodes that don't stand on their own.  I'm not a binge watcher!  I watch a MAX of two episodes of a show in an evening.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

13 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

DS9 had a semi-serialized story style and it worked great.

 

 

 

Yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What do you mean than?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

Is the music doing anything for you, Marian? For me its just there.

 

I think my main problem is that most of the time, it's "just not there", to twist your words. Meaning that even when there's score, it hardly registers. And it's not even because of the quality of the music; the main theme is virtually nonexistent, but every once in a while there's something in the underscore that sounds to me like, on its own, it might be nice enough. But I have to concentrate to even notice that there's music in the show. Contrast that with GoT's music, which is mostly irrelevant musically, but at least makes an impact by being *there*.

 

But as I said, that just seems to mirror the show's pacing. It's like they just place cuts and speed changes arbitrarily (Lorca's escape from the Klingons being an example), and the spotting is similarly random.

 

38 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

Yeah. They clearly were influenced by the GOT opening sequence and theme, and now I think this is their attempt at GOT style plotting...i.e. have different characters with different arcs and different agendas doing their own thing, and eventually it will all come together.

 

And there's nothing wrong with this approach, except that it doesn't work on a starship based show and really isn't the way Trek stories have typically been told.  

 

That's not what I'm saying though. GoT has a huge number of plot lines and more (at its best) or keeps them in balance. There is no sense of the flow of "real world time", but the narrative flow is always there.

 

11 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I really do prefer semi-serialization.  There have been great shows that are fully serialized of course, but an episode of television that functions as its own story with beginning/middle/end and advances a larger narrative is a beautiful thing.

 

I like full serialisation, and I like semi serialisation when it's well done. It's certainly more difficult to do a full serialised Trek, simply because traditionally, the series' concept was always based on a crew with a long time mission encountering many different phenomena. One might think that ST:D, focusing on a very specific story line, would lose some of the range (and thus some of the atmosphere) of classic Trek, but compensate by having more detailed character development and personal story lines. But all too often, it just seems to be empty, taking its time for nothing, and then when things get exciting, half of the excitement is confusing (with seriously ugly designs and exaggerated VFX and "cool" camera tricks) and the other half is just cut.

 

I do like it though, despite all the flaws. Or at least I think I do, to an extent. Perhaps just because it's Trek (and Meyer and Fuller) and I want to like it. I don't have much hope for season 1 to change into something seriously satisfying, but let's hope its weird flaws are half due to it being Trek (where a lousy first season is a must, apparently) and half because of its troubled production history, which might have less impact on S2.

 

Compared to TNG, the former probably was better at it's best moments in S1, but those were exceedingly rare. And so far, I haven't found anything in ST:D as cringe worthy as most of TNG.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I doubt Meyer and Fuller have a lot to do with what we're seeing now. Neither seem to be part of the production anymore

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Meyer is working on a different Trek project. And Fuller left. 

 

Marian likes the show because of people that don’t have much to do with it!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Different Trek project?

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

25 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

What do you mean than?

 

It's not the serialisation I dislike...as you said, DS9, which is by far my favourite Trek, did this incredibly effectively. It's the way they're telling the stories that feels disjointed to me. There's no sense of cohesiveness among the characters, plot points get added and dropped, etc.  DS9 had a serialised (or semi serialised if you like) format in the latter seasons, but it still always felt like Trek.

 

This show doesn't feel much like Trek at all to me, but once I let go of expecting it to I started to enjoy it a little more. And I remind myself that times change, and at one time TNG didn't feel much like the Trek that came before as well. So I'm trying to keep an open mind, and accept the fact that the Trek I loved is gone and probably isn't coming back.  I will say this...I like better than the Abrams era Trek.

 

In any event, it's not a great show, but it's early (EVERY 90's era Trek show mostly sucked during the first season, if not longer), and I'm going to give the show a chance to get its sea legs.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

4 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Different Trek project?

 

They says Meyer is working on a Khan oriented TV show. I don’t know who They is, but he seems trustable. Maybe They is working with Meyer?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

10 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I doubt Meyer and Fuller have a lot to do with what we're seeing now. Neither seem to be part of the production anymore

 

Not with the end result, no. But it's disjointed nature may spring from their earlier concepts. The "grittier", less tangible atmosphere reminds me of Fuller's take on American Gods, for example, and the focus on Michael's personal conflicts is something I imagine could have come from Meyer's concept. It all just doesn't seem to come together, perhaps partly because of an ultimately very different take on some early concepts.

 

We'll see how it all works out before long.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

11 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

They says Meyer is working on a Khan oriented TV show. I don’t know who They is, but he seems trustable. Maybe They is working with Meyer?

 

Yeah, I read about this as well.

 

Another terrible idea. Why are people responsible for producing a show about the future so obsessed with the past?  It's frustrating and baffling. Discovery could easily have taken place post Nemesis without missing a beat. I remember reading that everyone in the writer's room on Enterprise was frustrated with the story limitations setting the show pre-TOS placed on them, until they finally just decided to ignore most of the cannon. Which I guess is what these guys are doing as well.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

9 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Not with the end result, no. But it's disjointed nature may spring from their earlier concepts. The "grittier", less tangible atmosphere reminds me of Fuller's take on American Gods, for example, and the focus on Michael's personal conflicts is something I imagine could have come from Meyer's concept. It all just doesn't seem to come together, perhaps partly because of an ultimately very different take on some early concepts.

 

We'll see how it all works out before long.

 

I agree. The concept has immense potential. Shoot a human woman raised by Vulcans is fascinating. But man they just dropped the ball. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Burnham is so boring now!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad

 

Hey this one is actually fun. Derivative as hell, someone on the production saw TNG's Cause And Effect and though...hmmmm! But it's light, breezy and at times quite clever.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I thought it was the worst episode yet. STD trying to be classic Trek, but failing. The villain is a caricature (even more so than Q, who he is directly associated with near the end, even if it's probably just a lame inside joke), the plot makes little sense, and the characters make no sense at all. Paul especially has been out of character so much in this and I think already in previous episodes, he doesn't even seem to be a character anymore.

[YoYoMama 48]

On 10/26/2017 at 10:10 AM, Stefancos said:

Burnham is so boring now!

 

She's absolutely the worst character on the show for me. She rarely smiles, she's naive about any sort of normal human interaction (like dating..?) and there's nothing really likeable or relatable about her. 

 

On 10/26/2017 at 9:54 AM, Nick1066 said:

So I'm trying to keep an open mind, and accept the fact that the Trek I loved is gone and probably isn't coming back.

 

I see what you're saying, but the Trek you love is still very much alive and celebrated by millions of people every day, including in DIS. I watch episodes of TOS all the time and still discuss them with people who know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm actually making my way through DS9 for the very first time.  All aspects of Star Trek are celebrated, at least the main aspects, and I don't think the magic is going anywhere. To me, the show is boldly going where Star Trek hasn't gone before and I think that was the idea from the start. Sure there will be missteps at the beginning, but like most Treks by season two or three it will have found it's footing and reinvented itself. The theme song is absolutely the most disappointing thing about the show for me, which I guess in the long run isn't a big deal, but I was really looking forward to adding a new Trek theme to my already large library of great Trek music. The execs over at CBS are absolutely clueless, this is the second time they've screwed up a great Trek theme. 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

2 hours ago, YoYoMama said:

I'm actually making my way through DS9 for the very first time. 

 

Wow, I envy you, you're in for quite a ride! By far the best Trek. 

 

Which season are you on? 

 

BTW, welcome to the board. JWFan is one of the best places in the internet.

[Arpy 4,145]

I've just started DS9 too, I've always neglected it for TNG and VOY. I've heard good things about it, so I have no qualms or worries going in now.

[YoYoMama 48]

5 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

Wow, I envy you, you're in for quite a ride! By far the best Trek. 

 

Which season are you on? 

 

BTW, welcome to the board. JWFan is one of the best places in the internet.

 

 

So I hear. I'm at the end of season 2 right now, and apparently I'm just getting to the good stuff. Starting to hear about the Dominion, etc etc. It's good stuff. Thanks! I hear good things about this place. I don't know what I'd do without JW and need other like minded people to share in my hatred of all things related to crappy hollywood film scores (and of course the good ones)

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

While seasons 1 & 2 have their moments, DS9 doesn't start to live up to its potential until season 3, and then in season 4 it kicks into high gear and doesn't look back. 

 

Look to the beards. Once Sisko gets the beard, and later when Worf shows up,  it all starts to come together. Look to the beards!  😀

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Season 1 and 2 have more than their moments though.

Both are very uneven with a couple of real clunkers, but both have what I would consider some of the best episodes of the series. (Duet, Necessary Evil). And both have a bunch of episodes that are good and worthwhile eps of Star Trek or Star Trek: DS9. 

 

Worthwile season 1/2 episodes. (The ones in bold are ones I consider excellent)

 

Emissary

Past Prologue

Dax

The Nagus

Vortex

Battle Lines

Progress

Duet

In The Hands Of The Prophets

 

The Homecoming

The Circle

The Siege

Invasive Procedures

Cardassians

Necessary Evil

Sanctuary

Blood Oath

The Maquis part 1 and 2

The Wire

Crossover

The Collaborator

Tribunal

The Jem Hadar

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

That's a great run from Duet to The Seige. 

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Frank Langella on Star Trek, man!

 

 

[Quintus 5,399]

I watched most of episode four last night. It's half decent and watchable enough. But can I ask, would it be safe and is it viable to skip entirely the **AWFUL** Klingon scenes? I literally give no fucks about that subplot. Is it vital? 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

Well, given that the whole show is premised around a war with the Klingons, I'm not sure it could aptly be described as a subplot.

 

Though I do agree that the scenes are for the most part awful. They could go a long way by ditching the subtitles and maybe changing the appearance up a bit so that the actors can do some approximation of facial expressions.  Being able to tell them apart would be nice as well.

[Quintus 5,399]

What I mean is the staging of those scenes very quickly made me realise I have zero interest in their side of the story.

 

I think I'm just going to start fastfowarding their stuff from now on.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Episode 4 has the last of the long talky Klingon scenes so far. You're safe for atleast the next 3 episodes.

[Quintus 5,399]

Oh that's encouraging then.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That much is certain.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Klingon language being entirely constructed by a linguist based on a few lines from TMP must make it very unwieldy and frankly, not very interesting.

 

However, we have had a few scenes in other versions of Star Trek where characters spoke it for some length of time and it never sounded this stale. Of course having actors like Christopher Plummer sink their teeth into it may have something to do with it. 

[Wojo 2,453]

Heghlu me kak jajvam. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

[Wojo 2,453]

"it is a good day to die." 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I love Gowron! Sadly I can never unsee that he has a clitoris on his forehead.

[Quintus 5,399]

Is that the guy from Home Alone? Marv? 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No. But I guess I can kinda see from that pic why you might think that.

[Quintus 5,399]

Isn't there a long history of lower tier known faces making appearances in Star Trek? 

 

I must say the last person I expected to see pop up in Discovery was the presenter of Grand Designs.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wut?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

5 hours ago, Stefancos said:

The Klingon language being entirely constructed by a linguist based on a few lines from TMP must make it very unwieldy and frankly, not very interesting.

 

 

It worked fine on TNG and DS9. But of course that was after whatever incident turned the Klingons first into regular bearded humans and then the rigged forehead humanoids we're all familiar with, apparently ridding them of their speech impediments (though the females retained a bit of it).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There's very little prolonged Klingon dialogue in either. Probably wisely. 

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

I think I read somewhere that Dax actually has more complete Klingon lines than any other Klingon character (at least before Discovery).