Fal

The Thematic Material of the Star Wars Saga (Possible Community Project?)

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If the Rebel Rhythm never occurs away from the Rebel Fanfare, isn't it part of it then?

Yes. I just have it that way just in case.

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Great idea, Faleel!

One important thing I would ask is, what are we defining as a theme? Implied in your analysis above is a definition that includes:

- Both short motifs and longer melodies

- Some melodies that aren't repeated in other scenes, like the Cantina Band themes

- Melodies (long or short) whose association is a bit questionable like the Escape Pod theme or the Threepio motif

- Accompaniments without necessarily having a melody with them (Rebel Rhythm)

Myself, when something is borderline, I'd err on the side of inclusiveness to allow others to make a judgement for themselves. So I agree with including short motifs, non-repeated melodies, and questionable associations (repeated or not). The accompaniments I probably wouldn't call themes because they seem more like underscore due to being somewhat less memorable. The melody or motif is the thing that makes a theme, isn't it? Maybe you want to be more inclusive than that. In any case, I just think your definition should be made explicit somewhere in the OP so everyone knows what might be included in the list - if this is how you view it, anyway.

That said, I would say that the Landspeeder Travel Motif is a case of vaguely similar accompaniments. I find it hard to hear them as related because the intervals, harmonies, and melodies are all different. The rhythm is really the thing holding them all together, but that's not really enough to call them by the same name, IMO. The Unknown citations I would also argue against because they don't really have anything memorable about them, they're not repeated, nor do they have any clear association.

But I do like the classical references included. Newcomers are always interested to know where exactly they happen.

As I say, great idea. Hope this keeps going...

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Great idea, Faleel!

Myself, when something is borderline, I'd err on the side of inclusiveness to allow others to make a judgement for themselves. So I agree with including short motifs, non-repeated melodies, and questionable associations (repeated or not). The accompaniments I probably wouldn't call themes because they seem more like underscore due to being somewhat less memorable. The melody or motif is the thing that makes a theme, isn't it? Maybe you want to be more inclusive than that. In any case, I just think your definition should be made explicit somewhere in the OP so everyone knows what might be included in the list - if this is how you view it, anyway.

That said, I would say that the Landspeeder Travel Motif is a case of vaguely similar accompaniments. I find it hard to hear them as related because the intervals, harmonies, and melodies are all different. The rhythm is really the thing holding them all together, but that's not really enough to call them by the same name, IMO.

#1 The Accompaniments: I mention them just in case they are used on their own later, or if the theme is used without the accompaniment (for example the Rebel Fanfare is used without the Rhythm sometimes

#2 The Questionables: I mention them just in case I or someone else notices other occurrences of those melodies, or in case JW or another composer uses them in a later score (or in scores for extended editions of the films ;) )

#3 The Landspeeder Travel motif: that is actually a motif that Willliams points out in his notes to the OST album, I do think the string figures I list under that name in Binary Sunset alternate, Burning Homestead etc. are probably not that motif, but I figured I would include it

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Great idea, Faleel!

Myself, when something is borderline, I'd err on the side of inclusiveness to allow others to make a judgement for themselves. So I agree with including short motifs, non-repeated melodies, and questionable associations (repeated or not). The accompaniments I probably wouldn't call themes because they seem more like underscore due to being somewhat less memorable. The melody or motif is the thing that makes a theme, isn't it? Maybe you want to be more inclusive than that. In any case, I just think your definition should be made explicit somewhere in the OP so everyone knows what might be included in the list - if this is how you view it, anyway.

That said, I would say that the Landspeeder Travel Motif is a case of vaguely similar accompaniments. I find it hard to hear them as related because the intervals, harmonies, and melodies are all different. The rhythm is really the thing holding them all together, but that's not really enough to call them by the same name, IMO.

#1 The Accompaniments: I mention them just in case they are used on their own later, or if the theme is used without the accompaniment (for example the Rebel Fanfare is used without the Rhythm sometimes

#2 The Questionables: I mention them just in case I or someone else notices other occurrences of those melodies, or in case JW or another composer uses them in a later score (or in scores for extended editions of the films ;) )

#3 The Landspeeder Travel motif: that is actually a motif that Willliams points out in his notes to the OST album, I do think the string figures I list under that name in Binary Sunset alternate, Burning Homestead etc. are probably not that motif, but I figured I would include it

So this is truly a "cast the net as wide as possible" kind of project. I think that's good, even if it means drawing in some "probably nots".

If I may make a suggestion, the Unknown you mention in Hologram/Binary Sunset I believe to be an anticipation of the statement of Luke's theme that immediately follows. In other words, we lose that sense of development of Luke's theme if we siphon it off as a separate theme.

And this brings up another very important point for definitions - what about developments of themes? Would they be included too? The biggest example is the Battle of Endor from ROTJ. That thing is absolutely littered with Ewok theme developments, but it's hard to say whether they constitute the theme or not. They're obviously referencing the Parade of the Ewoks and therefore carry the association of the Ewoks, but whether it's they're themes, it's very hard to say. Again, it depends on definitions. Something seems to be lost either way - if we include them, then there are a vast number of other things that might be included as well. But exclude them and we lose the sense of association with the Ewoks, and it's clearly a crucial part of the narrative. Trickiness...

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If I may make a suggestion, the Unknown you mention in Hologram/Binary Sunset I believe to be an anticipation of the statement of Luke's theme that immediately follows. In other words, we lose that sense of development of Luke's theme if we siphon it off as a separate theme.

I listed it as a separate theme, because it is used in the Alternate version at the beginning and 1:00, and I think elsewhere?

A New Hope is finished. threw in the Gerhardt Suite version of Throne Room just for fun

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I was just thinking about starting this! There's a thread that does this for the force theme here. One caveat for this is when we get around to doing the prequels. Everybody's got their own fan edits, but there's no real consensus complete score, especially for AOTC.

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One caveat for this is when we get around to doing the prequels. Everybody's got their own fan edits, but there's no real consensus complete score, especially for AOTC.

I will probably do two seperate lists, one for the OST and one using Trents edits or the film itself....

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I think to do this effectively, there needs to be some distance from what may or may not have musically inspired something that Williams wrote.

Like 'Mars, Bringer of War Reference', we can all clearly trace the potential or obvious temp usage of the Holst music but that doesn't help us to understand the significance of what Williams wrote in relation to the story, it feels to me as a time is running out/impending doom idea, the heavy accents are like fate's clock.

For me the Main Title is the prologue of the story and the Throne Room is the epilogue, so really the meat of the story is from the Blockade Runner chase up until the destruction of the Death Star, what 'confirms' this for me are the similarities between the opening flourish of the Main Title and the opening of the Throne Room.

I think it's a cheeky connection but musically significant enough for me to believe that they do hold a certain amount of relevance together.

That music (Mars, Bringer of War Reference) perfectly bookends the film, in the beginning after the frantic strings we roll into an abbreviated presentation of the Rebel Fanfare and then into the heavy (Mars) accents, the cat chasing the mouse, time is running out.

At the end we have the mouse chasing the cat, time is running out again, will the Death Star be destroyed, will the Rebels be destroyed?

At its conclusion we then leave it via superimposed versions of the Rebel fanfare as Vader spins away and then retreats, whereas in the beginning it was the Rebel fanfare that introduced us to the 'time is running out/impending doom' idea.

I just think it's much more important to see how there things are used as story telling devices rather than their temp track inspirations and label them accordingly.

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I think to do this effectively, there needs to be some distance from what may or may not have musically inspired something that Williams wrote.

Like 'Mars, Bringer of War Reference', we can all clearly trace the potential or obvious temp usage of the Holst music but that doesn't help us to understand the significance of what Williams wrote in relation to the story, it feels to me as a time is running out/impending doom idea, the heavy accents are like fate's clock.

For me the Main Title is the prologue of the story and the Throne Room is the epilogue, so really the meat of the story is from the Blockade Runner chase up until the destruction of the Death Star, what 'confirms' this for me are the similarities between the opening flourish of the Main Title and the opening of the Throne Room.

I think it's a cheeky connection but musically significant enough for me to believe that they do hold a certain amount of relevance together.

That music (Mars, Bringer of War Reference) perfectly bookends the film, in the beginning after the frantic strings we roll into an abbreviated presentation of the Rebel Fanfare and then into the heavy (Mars) accents, the cat chasing the mouse, time is running out.

At the end we have the mouse chasing the cat, time is running out again, will the Death Star be destroyed, will the Rebels be destroyed?

At its conclusion we then leave it via superimposed versions of the Rebel fanfare as Vader spins away and then retreats, whereas in the beginning it was the Rebel fanfare that introduced us to the 'time is running out/impending doom' idea.

I just think it's much more important to see how there things are used as story telling devices rather than their temp track inspirations and label them accordingly.

Or I could just save myself the time coming up with a goofy title like "Cat and Mouse with the Rebellion Theme" ;)

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I found this file dating back to 2011 on my computer. I didn't make it (it says it was last edited by an "Aiwendil"), but I can't find the original source now. It's pretty comprehensive, but not in the most useful format.

Themes.xls

Edit: Found the source, but it's no longer an active site. For attribution, it was here, but I don't know what purpose a dead URL really serves.

Edit: GDrive link works now.

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Wow, it never even crossed my mind that the motif at 1:36 of Padme's Ruminations is the same thing at 0:51 of the Finale from AOTC!

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The fanfare at the 3:08 mark of Confrontation with Cout Dooku and Finale is a rendition of Across the Stars



I Can Fly Anything

1:19 Rey's Theme

That's the same theme as heard at 5:23 mark of The Jedi Steps and Finale, I don't think that's Rey's theme at all. Is it related with Finn or Poe?

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There's no reason for Rey's theme to appear in I Can Fly Anything.

Yeah, I wrote this after my first listen of the OST before seeing the film, and once trawling for themes with Audacity.

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Could there be a *possible* connection between 1:28-1:58 of "Torn Apart" from The Force Awakens and 3:47-3:53 of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from Revenge of the Sith? I understand that they're different, but they sound similar enough to me that I caught it on my first listen. And they both occur when

a Dark Side user is contemplating death--in Anakin's case, the murders he has already committed, and in Kylo's case, the murder he is about to commit.

Could that be stretching it a bit, maybe?

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20 hours ago, nightscape94 said:

Just seemed like a way to build up to a key change, not necessarily thematic.

Actually you can hear it in The Abduction too.

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On 18.12.2015 at 8:07 PM, KK. said:

That's Poe's theme. You hear it again around the climax at the 30 sec mark of "Farewell and the Trip". And again in the end credits at 5:20.

I was just about to point this out. Took me a while to notice Poe's theme at the beginning of Farewell and the Trip. It appears one additional time in the film for some of Poe's flying exploits.

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15 hours ago, libraloco said:

Could there be a *possible* connection between 1:28-1:58 of "Torn Apart" from The Force Awakens and 3:47-3:53 of "Anakin's Dark Deeds" from Revenge of the Sith? I understand that they're different, but they sound similar enough to me that I caught it on my first listen. And they both occur when

 

Hidden Content

Could that be stretching it a bit, maybe?

 

I think its just a dramatic Williams musical device. More a coincidence than an intentional connection.

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I have a question. Does Finn really have a theme? 5:06 to 6:05 in OST Track 23 is the Action motif (with a short statement of Poe's theme in the middle) but is not really Finn's theme right. It's more of a general action motif. It's not really a theme even, it's an action figure around which Williams builds a lot of orchestral activity.

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Like say a quite introspective moment when Finn is sitting and wondering, the theme cannot be used right? That's the reason I don't think it is his theme.

 

I am trying to locate an instance when the action motif is used when Finn is not around.

 

 

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Is it me or is "Han and Leia" in Torn Apart? At 2:14, I keep hearing a twisted variation of that melody on the horns, probably to accompany the fall.

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3 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Like say a quite introspective moment when Finn is sitting and wondering, the theme cannot be used right? That's the reason I don't think it is his theme.

 

That was a concern of mine as well.  Would like to see what he does with it in a dramatic moment, since he didn't seem to do anything with it during his confession scene.

 

3 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Beautiful!

 

It really soars!

23 minutes ago, Faleel said:

 

I hear the turn of their theme in the violas, not the horns, @ 2:15.  Unless I'm missing it.

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