The Force Awakens Rey's Theme – John Williams' Best Theme Yet?

[crumbs 14,313]

https://youtu.be/rWF0f183tSA?t=8s

 

Oops, correction, a loud "metal" sound covers the start of the edit, and a lightsaber clash hides the end. It's simply a clunky edit without sound effects. Wonder what Williams was thinking when he first saw this?!

 

I do love the way JJ dials out all other sound until the lightsaber ignition and gives Burning Homestead total precedence in the mix; really gives poignancy to the moment, if the evocative music didn't already.

[Jay 37,353]

I completely understand wanting the "feel" of Burning Homestead instead of the feel that what JW originally wrote has.

 

But I think they should have had JW write an Insert that matches the tone of Burning Homestead without directly copying it, and is in the right key to segue back to the rest of the cue, instead of just tracking in the 1977 recording of Burning Homestead.

[Datameister 2,042]

That would have been ideal, naturally. I assume the decision was made too late in the game for that to happen.

[Quintus 5,399]

40 minutes ago, Jay said:

Since they are in different keys, there will never be a satisfactory edit

 

Nonsense. 

[Jay 37,353]

27 minutes ago, Datameister said:

That would have been ideal, naturally. I assume the decision was made too late in the game for that to happen.

 

Yea, I'm sure that was the case.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

12 minutes ago, Lonnegan said:

 

Nonsense. 

 

It's not

[Quintus 5,399]

You're saying a change of key can't work in such music? Lol okay. 

[Jay 37,353]

A change of key can certainly be worked into music, obviously.

 

But combining this 1977 recording in one key with the rest of the cue from 2016 in another will never sound correct when not using sound effects to mask the inorganic key change.

[crumbs 14,313]

Yep, I'm assuming the decision to use Burning Homestead was very, very late in post. Probably even during the final sound mix.

 

Especially when you consider how slavish the producers were to Williams having multiple sessions for re-writes, alternates, etc. as the edit constantly evolved. They went to great pains to avoid any repeat of the prequel tracked music situation.

 

I would've loved to hear a brand new interpretation of the aforementioned cue as written by modern John Williams, too. 

[Datameister 2,042]

13 minutes ago, Lonnegan said:

You're saying a change of key can't work in such music? Lol okay. 

 

That particular key change in those particular recordings won't work. The difference in sound quality is stark as well. Works well enough as part of the film mix, but as a standalone listening experience, it's never going to sound like one organic whole.

 

I might give it a shot later, though, just for the hell of it.

[Tom 4,654]

If Rey turns out to be Luke's daughter, then the point of the direct quote is the obvious parallel of how the force/fate affect both of them.

 

Speaking of which, why on earthy would JJ not have told Williams Rey's parentage? 

[Jay 37,353]

It's possible that the powers that be at Lucasfilm hadn't fully committed to who Rey's parents were by the time the score was being recorded.

[Quintus 5,399]

22 minutes ago, Datameister said:

The difference in sound quality is stark as well.

 

This would potentially be the actual problematic aspect. 

 

22 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I might give it a shot later, though, just for the hell of it

 

Please do

[Datameister 2,042]

I tried. The musicality was a bigger issue than the sound quality - I'd already polished up the sound of ANH for my edit of that score, and the difference didn't sound that awful. But musically, the two passages just don't belong together.

[Quintus 5,399]

That's a matter of fact. But back in my music editing days (a looooong time ago) I'd have made this work if I had access to clean sections of music. Presumably that is the biggest issue here. 

[Datameister 2,042]

Well, we have the ANH cue as it was recorded. There seems to be some editing in the TFA OST track, but it's unclear whether it would have been any easier with the music presented as recorded. The biggest problem is the transition back into the TFA material. That dramatic horn passage from ANH desperately wants to resolve to C minor, which is why Williams wrote the following Death Star motif statement in that key. But the statement of Rey's theme that we're cutting to is in D minor. Awkward.

[Jay 37,353]

4 minutes ago, Datameister said:

That dramatic horn passage from ANH desperately wants to resolve to C minor, which is why Williams wrote the following Death Star motif statement in that key. But the statement of Rey's theme that we're cutting to is in D minor. Awkward.

 

Exactly.

 

Thank you for explaining it so succinctly.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lee will still claim "rubbish".

[Jay 37,353]

Indeed.

[Quintus 5,399]

Which keys were involved during the transition between Theoden's speech and the change to the Rohirrim charge? How about whenever ET takes flight? What about the Asteroid Field fanfares? 

[Jay 37,353]

You can WRITE a key change into the music of course, but you cannot force two separate pieces of music in different keys to blend seamlessly without a passage written to resolve one key and begin the next.  That's the whole point, and why in the film itself, they masked the switch over with sound effects.

[Datameister 2,042]

10 minutes ago, Lonnegan said:

Which keys were involved during the transition between Theoden's speech and the change to the Rohirrim charge? How about whenever ET takes flight? What about the Asteroid Field fanfares? 

 

I didn't bother with Shore's increasingly dull scores after FOTR. ET uses spiced-up versions of an authentic cadence, very much like the ANH passage in question (and unlike the TFA edit). One of the transitions into the broad, brassy passages in The Asteroid Field does, too; the other bursts out of nowhere in a key a whole step higher than the preceding one - kind of an orchestral "truck driver's key change."

 

None of these share the same awkward modulation created by editing the ANH material into TFA, so I'm not sure what your point is.

[Quintus 5,399]

14 minutes ago, Jay said:

You can WRITE a key change into the music of course, but you cannot force two separate pieces of music in different keys to blend seamlessly without a passage written to resolve one key and begin the next.  That's the whole point, and why in the film itself, they masked the switch over with sound effects.

 

Yeah I'd just dial out the previous cue. Of course it'd never sound like one seamless piece of music - because it isn't. However I've heard studio micro edits over the years which wouldn't sound any less awkward than this one. Sod it I might have a crack at it myself. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

 

2 minutes ago, Lonnegan said:

Sod it I might have a crack at it myself. 

 

Please do if it will stop you whining about it!

[Quintus 5,399]

I used to do all my own edits like you guys do. It was I who first shared the film version of the Pelennor, which was my edit of the Battle for Middle Earth game music. Everyone thought it was the original Shore version till I said it wasn't. 

[Datameister 2,042]

5 minutes ago, Lonnegan said:

 

Yeah I'd just dial out the previous cue. Of course it'd never sound like one seamless piece of music - because it isn't. However I've heard studio micro edits over the years which wouldn't sound any less awkward than this one. Sod it I might have a crack at it myself. 

 

I believe I originally said that it's probably not possible to make it sound natural - "natural" meaning "like one seamless piece of music." So evidently we're in agreement.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

49 minutes ago, Datameister said:

 

I didn't bother with Shore's increasingly dull scores after FOTR.

 

I'll pray for you.

[Datameister 2,042]

You won't be the first.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Rey's Theme was played last night at the Closing Ceremony of the Cannes film festival for the Best Actress prize.

 

Hearing it out booming out in a cavernous auditorium confirmed it as one of those epic themes of yore which are routinely used in big ceremonies. Its absolutely as sweeping and staggering as you expect a large scale theme to be. And also quite lovely.

 

http://www.canalplus.fr/cinema/festival-de-cannes/pid6996-ceremonies-cannes-2016.html

 

You can catch the moment beginning from 48:55 into the video above.

 

PS: There's like a reaaaaaaally long ad before the video like 3-5 minutes but stick with it, you will like what you hear.

 

Also anybody wants to speculate which cut they used. I think its the one from the End Credits.

[justaguy 68]

24 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Also anybody wants to speculate which cut they used. I think its the one from the End Credits.

I think it's looped (EDIT: Really nicely looped!) Rey's Theme concert suite from 1:40 to about 2:08.

 

Nice find proving that whoever is in charge of Cannes music has good taste.

[artguy360 1,843]

Rey's Theme for best actress! That was pretty good.

[Tom 4,654]

More evidence that Rey's theme is going to be remembered long term.

[mrbellamy 6,286]

Our little baby's making its way out in the world. I'm so proud.

[ocelot 508]

I really love how everyone is arguing whether Rey's Theme is his best or in the top 10 or even better in the top 100. That in itself tells me how amazing it is to have modern day Tchaikovsky (tunesmith) in our time... How many other living composers have written THAT MANY themes and motifs that warrant this much of an argument about what is the best theme. Lovely!

 

Personally I think it's a beautiful theme that has part of it's roots in Dvorak's New World symphony, and it's harmonically, at least the start of it, is The Force Theme. It's feminine yet adventurous, and most importantly, for me, as I love to write themes, I love how it's simplicity can make you orchestrate it so differently, change it, use different parts of it and it's still Rey. I definitely won't say it's his best theme, but the way he wrote this, for a female adventuress, is genius in it's own way. I figured out, and Steef will back me up on this because when I first heard it, before the movie came out, I said to him, She's the one with the force. If that was known previously, it wasn't known to me, but the chord structure starting in d minor, then hitting the G major on the last chord in the first passage is the force theme's chord structure. Plus the intro, very feminine, the Dvorak inspired intro, with the same rhythm as the last 4 notes of each of Princess Leia's theme.

 

Anyway, I love that this is what people are arguing about. /popcorn

 

Edit: One of my favorite uses of the theme is in the end of The Abduction (1.35 on) with the 6 or 8 French horns blasting that counter melody. GAH! Brilliant scoring and music in that section I think I repeated over and over when I first heard it. 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

14 hours ago, ocelot said:

Edit: One of my favorite uses of the theme is in the end of The Abduction (1.35 on) with the 6 or 8 French horns blasting that counter melody. GAH! Brilliant scoring and music in that section I think I repeated over and over when I first heard it. 

Seconded!

[TownerFan 4,983]

On ‎24‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 4:18 AM, ocelot said:

Personally I think it's a beautiful theme that has part of it's roots in Dvorak's New World symphony, and it's harmonically, at least the start of it, is The Force Theme.

 

I can't help but hearing shades of Mendelssohn in Rey's theme. Not as specific quotes, mind you, but the general feeling is quite Mendelssohn-ian, imho, especially as the theme dances around the whole woodwind section.

[ocelot 508]

49 minutes ago, TownerFan said:

 

I can't help but hearing shades of Mendelssohn in Rey's theme. Not as specific quotes, mind you, but the general feeling is quite Mendelssohn-ian, imho, especially as the theme dances around the whole woodwind section.

Orchestration wise you mean, nice

[SzPeti42 49]

I'm not a master of great academic musical words, so I'll keep it simple. It's still giving me goosebumps, that's a good thing, no?

[Incanus 5,714]

On 25.5.2016 at 1:48 AM, SzPeti42 said:

I'm not a master of great academic musical words, so I'll keep it simple. It's still giving me goosebumps, that's a good thing, no?

Yup. Very good and yes it still has the same effect on me too.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

It does cause Johnnygasms.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Yes it does. For me it is almost too much that this guy can write this kind of music that can touch me this much. He has written this so many times and is 84 years old. I didn't hear it before the showing and I have never cried in the premiere(because of the music). This man is special.

 

Now I'm prepared that Publicist and use to be Pilgrim call me Fanboy but what the hell. Fuck You!!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I'd never call you or anyone else a fanboy, shithead!

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Hey! It's a trap!!

 

He is ex Pilgrim

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

On 5/25/2016 at 5:48 PM, SzPeti42 said:

I'm not a master of great academic musical words, so I'll keep it simple. It's still giving me goosebumps, that's a good thing, no?

Same, particularly with the brass at the end.

[Quintus 5,399]

45 minutes ago, hornist said:

Yes it does. For me it is almost too much that this guy can write this kind of music that can touch me this much. He has written this so many times and is 84 years old. I didn't hear it before the showing and I have never cried in the premiere(because of the music). This man is special.

 

Now I'm prepared that Publicist and use to be Pilgrim call me Fanboy but what the hell. Fuck You!!

 

Go Pasi

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yawn.  The old guard try to remain relevant by inventing rivals to boldly wave their enthusiasm in front of, and others cheer them on.  It's the same everywhere.  

 

I wonder how long I'll have to be here before Lee D rallies behind my Williams enthusiasm, which is not lacking here.  There is the problem of me liking the wrong scores by him though. 

[publicist 4,643]

Will they die with Williams?

[Quintus 5,399]

8 hours ago, TheWhiteRider said:

Yawn.  The old guard try to remain relevant by inventing rivals to boldly wave their enthusiasm in front of, and others cheer them on.  It's the same everywhere.  

 

I wonder how long I'll have to be here before Lee D rallies behind my Williams enthusiasm, which is not lacking here.  There is the problem of me liking the wrong scores by him though. 

 

I think you're reading far too much into it tbh. And the only person I see inventing rivals is you. Inferiority complex? 

 

FYI my silly post above was a reply to Hornist's gush post, nobody else, and any perceived agenda there was invented by yourself.  

 

Out of interest, what makes you think I have no enthusiasm for the Williams music you like?  

[publicist 4,643]

But it's still nice to earn a mention once in a while, eh?

[Quintus 5,399]

I have no idea really why Pilg has the impression his taste in Williams music if of no interest to 'the old guard'. Seems a bit precious to me.