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How would you rank The Force Awakens among the Star Wars prequel scores?


Josh500

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1 hour ago, indy4 said:

 

Well duh.  The whole point of this site is to state and argue opinions, and we're not always going to preface them with an "in my opinion..." because most of the time that goes without saying.  Also, if memory serves, this whole debate started when some of us expressed disappointment that the HSS would be replacing the LSO for TFA--absent any statement about one being objectively superior over the other--and you attacked us for being biased, etc.  If your point this whole time has been that there are legitimate differences between HHS and LSO, and you just don't think we can use these differences to determine objectively which is better than the other...then you're not in contradiction with us.

 

Oh please.  No one "attacked" you for anything, don't be absurd.  If you say the point of this site is to state and argue opinions, then let that play out and don't cogitate over whether or not there's any actual contradiction and thus any reason for me to state my opinions.  And be wary of using the royal "we" because while you might agree it's pointless to try and objectively rank the two groups against each other, there may be others who cling to that as a possibility.  And it's them who I address, or at least, those whose language doesn't clearly articulate that they're of sound mind on the subject, not you.

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I was trying to put into words why I love this score so much and why I like listening to it over and over. It turns out Conrad Pope already said it better than I could:

Quote

I think what touched me most in listening to this CD is that the music possesses so many of the qualities that made me love John's music so many years ago: the themes and motifs have a directness- an accessibility, if you will-- and architecture that make them thrilling and/or moving at first hearing and then the "composition" of these ideas into cues have the logic that shares more the organic development in concert pieces. Indeed, it is thrilling for me to hear the orchestration develop as in so many "inevitable", organic ways. Very little of the score sounds "cuey" to me. The transitions and connecting material are wonderfully conceived and engaging( In fairness, I feel much the same way about A.I.) For those of us who remember the "thrill" of the first SW score and the EMPIRE, I think this score has all the vitrues of the earlier scores combined --- or realized--- with more "abstract" (?), contemporary techniques of John's scores of recent years. If I could thank JJ Abrams for anything, it was trusting John to be John--and, though I have yet to see it, bravo to JJ for making a film that supports such a musical approach.

 

I think the bolded is really what makes this score unique. It has that direct, clear identification of motifs and ideas within a more complex framework that JW has been working in lately. That combination makes the score ripe for repeated listening and discovery. 

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There aren't many things about a performance that can be judged "objectively." I mean, sure, you can objectively say that at such-and-such moment the celli were producing a vibration in the air at about 220 Hz or what have you. But the meaningful stuff is pretty much all subjective, or based on comparison to widespread subjective standards.

 

I apologize if my reference to "LSO-level" performances seemed to indicate a belief that some performances are objectively better than others. Perhaps "LSO-style" would have communicated my thoughts better to you. Or perhaps you're not even talking to me - despite decrying the use of vague pronouns, you're not being much more specific, Senor Pilgrim.

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6 minutes ago, artguy360 said:

I was trying to put into words why I love this score so much and why I like listening to it over and over. It turns out Conrad Pope already said it better than I could:

 

I think the bolded is really what makes this score unique. It has that direct, clear identification of motifs and ideas within a more complex framework that JW has been working in lately. That combination makes the score ripe for repeated listening and discovery. 

 

I agree with you...and the Pope!

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  • 1 month later...
23 minutes ago, E.T. and Elliot said:

It's definitely not as entertaining as TPM or ROTS. It may best AOTC, but inevitably I don't care and my mood always changes. I just listen to them all!

It's peculiar how the perception of the prequel scores has changed over time. They certainly aged well.

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Although my opinion is sure to change at some point and given that we haven't heard as much of the music from TFA as we have from all the prequel scores or had as much time with TFA, right now my ranking is:

 

1. TPM

2. TFA

3. ROTS

4. AOTC

I've been on a huge Star Wars music kick lately and I'm surprised by how little I actually listen to from AOTC and ROTS. And of the two ROTS has far better musical moments but also feels very disjointed and uneven in quality. TFA is a much more consistent score and entertaining to listen to throughout, minus only 2 or 3 cues. TPM is still unrivaled in its freshness but TFA is really good in that regard too.

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aotc is the absolute worst score by williams in the 21st century.

 

The Force Awakes is far better.

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The only thing I'm really sure of is that Phantom Menace is the best. They're all great but TPM's energy is pretty unreal to me.

 

Still not really sure how I'd rank the others. They all have their particular strengths and weaknesses, sorta depends on what I happen to enjoy more at the time. I guess I would put ROTS over AOTC most days. For now TFA's softer emotional colors and thematic development take the edge over ROTS' balls-to-the-wall highlights, but I think it'll always be close for me.

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  • 2 years later...
On 12/23/2015 at 3:56 AM, Josh500 said:

My ranking (at this time):

1. The Phantom Menace

2. Attack of the Clones

3. Revenge of the Sith

4. The Force Awakens

 

 

What the hell! This thread is already over 3 years old? How time flies! 

 

That said, my opinion hasn't changed. I still consider TFA to be inferior to all the prequels scores. It's good, of course, but just not better than the prequels scores. And I consider TFA to be better than TLJ. This latter is my least listened to Star Wars score ever. 

 

Maybe my New Year's resolution this year should be to listen more to TLJ... :D

On 12/23/2015 at 3:56 AM, Josh500 said:

Is it better than The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and/or Revenge of the Sith?

 

As much as I love the score to The Force Awakens (and yes, it's a grower), I don't think it's better than any of the 3 prequel scores. At most, it's on the same level as ROTS (the weakest of the prequel scores, IMO). The 3 prequel scores, though not necessarily the movies, are instant classics. Not sure yet that TFA actually has that sort of longevity and impact. TFA, in my opinion, lacks strong set pieces like "Duel of the Fates," "Across the Stars," and "Battle of the Heroes" as well as standout action pieces, like "Star Wars and the Revenge of the Sith," "Zam the Assassin and the Chase Through Coruscant," and "The Droid Invasion."

 

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The Force Awakens is the best Star Wars score other than Star Wars or The Empire Strikes Back. It towers so far above aotc and rots. Its is better than ROTJ and TPM. It better than The Last Jedi, which gets better with each listening. TFA is my favorite score of the 10's. That's favorite score, not just JW but all composers and films in this tenth year of the 10's. Perhap that might change in December. 

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"Rey's Theme" 

"The Jedi Steps" 

"The Attack on the Jakku Village"

 

These 3 titles alone make TFA pretty much irresistible, but are these better than, say, "Duel of the Fates" or "Zam the Assassin" or "The Revenge of the Sith"? 

 

Personally, I don't think so. But it's all very close. They are all masterpieces of modern orchestral music!

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Masterpieces. MASTERPIECES? You misuse that term regarding zam and sith.

 

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1 hour ago, Josh500 said:

"Rey's Theme" 

"The Jedi Steps" 

"The Attack on the Jakku Village"

 

These 3 titles alone make TFA pretty much irresistible, but are these better than, say, "Duel of the Fates" or "Zam the Assassin" or "The Revenge of the Sith"?

Yes.

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47 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Masterpieces. MASTERPIECES? You misuse that term regarding zam and sith.

 

 

But you think "Rey's Theme" is?

 

Anyway, I do think these are masterpieces... among the orchestral film music canon, at least. Action scoring at its finest and most brilliant. I don't consider everything JW writes masterful, though (if I did that, the word lose would lose all meaning!). Out of the prequels scores, "Palpatine's Teachings" and "Jar Jar's Introduction," say, only serve their purpose and that's it.

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10 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

But you think "Rey's Theme" is?

 

Anyway, I do think these are masterpieces... among the orchestral film music canon, at least. Action scoring at its finest and most brilliant. I don't consider everything JW writes masterful, though (if I did that, the word lose would lose all meaning!). Out of the prequels scores, "Palpatine's Teachings" and "Jar Jar's Introduction," say, only serve their purpose and that's it.

I know Ray is. It is so much better those two mediocre pieces you mentioned. I had to give them listen which confirmed they are not amongs Johnny's best. 

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12 hours ago, Josh500 said:

"Zam the Assassin"

A ridiculously whimsical cue. My favourite part of Attack of the Clones. 

 

It's too difficult to compare to anything out of The Force Awakens, because while being a part  of the same musical universe, these cues you specify are so very distinct to each movie. The Force Awakens doesn't have a Duel Of The Fates equivalent. The Force Awakens doesn't have a Zam the Assasin equivalent. And the Force Awakens may just barely have a Revenge of the Sith equivalent. 

 

Does this mean that the Prequels are all superior? Not neccesarily. Just because you can put two excerpts from two Star Wars scores beside each other doesn't mean that you can directly determine the greater of them. 

 

On a broader level, putting two entire scores beside each other is not much easier, but gives a little more to work with.

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1 hour ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

A ridiculously whimsical cue. My favourite part of Attack of the Clones. 

 

Yes! I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the greatness and brilliance of AotC! (Well, the score at least.) ;)

1 hour ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

Does this mean that the Prequels are all superior? Not neccesarily. Just because you can put two excerpts from two Star Wars scores beside each other doesn't mean that you can directly determine the greater of them. 

 

 

So by your reasoning, no two different things can be compared with each other! And that's just crazy.

 

I'm not saying one score is superior over the other. That's all subjective! I'm just saying for me, one score is superior over the other. Meaning I personally like one score better than the other. A big difference. In fact, the difference is like the difference between night and day! And anybody should be able to look inside of themselves and honestly decide what they like and don't like... what they like better or dislike more, etc. Without being overly influenced by what others (meaning the "society" or the "community"!) say or think. 

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2 hours ago, Josh500 said:

So by your reasoning, no two different things can be compared with each other! And that's just crazy.

No.

 

I'm referring to determining the greater of them aside putting opinion aside, which is virtually impossible for people on this site who blur the line between fact and personal thought and then accuse others of doing so, all the while retaining their "innocence" and adding to their beloved post count.

 

So to directly confront your statement, no. I'm saying it's hard to determine which Star Wars score is actually greater, as opposed to just picking favourites.

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8 hours ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

So to directly confront your statement, no. I'm saying it's hard to determine which Star Wars score is actually greater, as opposed to just picking favourites.

 

Couldn't agree with you more! 

 

But if questions such as these are posed (Which score is the best? Or Which track of the new album is the greatest? or Which Harry Potter installment is the weakest? etc.), I think it's tacitly understood that it means in your opinion. It's just the few chumps that believe their opinion is the only one that matters and that could be right!

 

"Great" means all sorts of different things to different people, after all. So it's not just hard to determine the objectively greatest Star Wars score, I'd say it's impossible! 

 

7 hours ago, TGP said:

Of course they happened - on a soundstage, directed by Kubrick, who was later killed for trying to reveal the secret through Eyes Wide Shut.

 

WTH you talking about? Wrong thread?😂 

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3 minutes ago, TGP said:

 

People who aren't very smart often respond to new ideas with cussing.  😂

 

WTH isn't cussing. Cussing would be What the hell! 😂 

 

Besides, if you have a new idea, create your own thread! This thread is for discussing Star Wars!

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Prequel scores much better imo. The majority of John Williams melodies and orchestration I feel I could never come up with on my own, prequels that would be Across the Stars: a melody and ethereal orchestration I could never imagine in my mind, absolutely brilliant. But The Force Awakens was much more replicable and forgettable, the melodies more simplistic and I have written lots of stuff like that before. That's how I have to personally judge on a subjective level.

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Actually yes, all the time actually. You have very basic rhythm and triads that carry a meter similar to ballads if you take that simple motif and overlay relative harmonies, you will discover it's like a lot of music out there. John Williams uses a strategy of randomization. I composed something just like Rey's Theme 12 years ago. It's absolutely nothing like any of his master melodies, ET Flight, Jedi Theme, The Banquet, Raiders, the majority of the original Star Wars motifs. Those are incredibly more advanced and iconic, my level isn't that high. I'm just opinionated on this matter.

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39 minutes ago, crumbs said:

The brilliance of Rey's Theme doesn't come from the complexity of that "basic" melody, but rather the musical colours John accentuates it with, the orchestration perfectly befitting her character, and the musical storytelling at work which brilliantly captures the character's journey.

 

I agree with this, but I would replace Brilliance with Use. I think something can fit a scene well, but musically it doesn't have to be something that captures everybody's interest. Happens all the time in movies. Something like the following is 90 times more captivating to me than anything in TFA, and it doesn't matter to me if TFA's music "fits" better (I constantly improve TFA's score in my mind throughout the movie, it's not a big hit for me.) I would have loved John Williams to do more original compositions outside of this musically bankrupt industry.

 

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It took until my second viewing of TFA to realise just how well JW's score fits that movie, like a glove.

 

Clearly the score's restraint took people by surprise ("WHERE'S DA CHOIR!! THIS SUCKS! DUEL OF DA F8's WAS SO MUCH BETTER!! DIS SOUNDS LYK ARRY POTTER COZ OF THE CHELESTE?!") but it's a perfect example of John writing to accentuate the film's storytelling rather than being the storytelling. This was, in large part, due to a competent director actually getting off their ass and directing the movie, rather than barking orders from a chair 50 metres away while clutching their morning coffee.

 

Just because people got used to John doing all the heavy lifting in the prequels doesn't necessarily mean that's how it should be. A prequel-esque score with unchallenged musical extroversion would be completely at odds with JJ's film.

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I prefer the Force Awakens over any of the precuel scores. IMHO the thematic material is stronger and I enjoy the action pieces more. It would be something as: 1. TFA, 2. TPM, 3. RotS and 4. AotC.

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