Anakin's B-Theme- Episode 1

[Score_Fan 36]

Okay, so on Wookiepedia, for "Enter, Lord Vader" apparently there is "A rendition of Anakin's "B-theme", first heard in Episode I, and associated with Shmi's Theme, plays after the opening percussion". Where in the score for TPM can this be heard? Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

 

Wookiepedia

[mrbellamy 6,272]

 

Er, well, this would probably be Anakin's B-theme.

 

 

 

And I assume this is the bit of Enter Lord Vader?

 

 

 

 

So...no idea.

[Score_Fan 36]

Yes and yes. I am so confused as to where that article even got the B-theme lol

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I sort of hear Schmee's theme in there...

[Score_Fan 36]

I don't, unless i'm mistaken on Shmi's theme

[stravinsky 203]

I never knew Shmi had a theme. Where can I find this? Does it occur in episodes I and II? 

[Datameister 2,037]

Yep, it's always heard on English horn. Easiest spot to find it is in that cue from AOTC when Anakin finds her. 1:26 in this video:

 

 

 

[artguy360 1,843]

IIRC this is also Shmi's Theme from TPM:

 

And it repeats again at the 3:00 mark. And again at 3:53 in the same track and 4:33, both of these renditions sound closer to what we hear in AOTC. Man I forgot all about this theme. Apparently it plays one other time earlier in TPM that I can't recall right now.

 

It's a lovely melody. Just wonderful in Anakin Is Free. 

[Faleel 5,341]

Don't forget it also plays in grand fashion in The Racer Roars to Life, I have it's appearances listed here:
 

 

18 hours ago, Datameister said:

Yep, it's always heard on English horn. Easiest spot to find it is in that cue from AOTC when Anakin finds her. 1:26 in this video:

 

Mostly because that is its only appearance on the 1 disc OST's

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

it's also used in ROTS when palpatine mentions the tusken camp in grievous ship.

[Faleel 5,341]

Sounds more like a War of the Worlds quote to me 

[Score_Fan 36]

So my question is...what is the connection to Her theme and that snippet of Enter, lord vader?

[Faleel 5,341]

It could be referring to 1:45 of Anakin's theme and 1:42 of Enter, Lord Vader.

[Incanus 5,713]

14 hours ago, Faleel said:

Don't forget it also plays in grand fashion in The Racer Roars to Life, I have it's appearances listed here:
 

 

Mostly because that is its only appearance on the 1 disc OST's

I never really connected that moment to Shmi's theme. I don't buy it. Not for a dollar at least.

[Datameister 2,037]

Yeah, that's not her theme...in fact, it's not a theme at all.

[Faleel 5,341]

7 hours ago, Datameister said:

 it's not a theme at all.

Then how do you explain fragments of it showing up in Anakin is Free around 2:12-3:00-3:54 then?

[Datameister 2,037]

3 hours ago, Faleel said:

Then how do you explain fragments of it showing up in Anakin is Free around 2:12-3:00-3:54 then?

 

I'll admit I forgot how that moment foreshadows the melody that crops up a few times in that cue. But I'd argue it's nothing more than that - a melody Williams wrote for that one scene to convey the bittersweetness of Anakin leaving his mother, and which he chose to foreshadow once earlier on the film. When I hear the word "theme" (at least in a film score context), I tend to think of something that's heard in at least three or four different contexts or scenes. Even Shmi's theme, which is about as minor a theme as you can get, is heard numerous times in TPM and AOTC, and with a clear leitmotivic association with the character.

[Ludwig 1,120]

5 hours ago, Faleel said:

Then how do you explain fragments of it showing up in Anakin is Free around 2:12-3:00-3:54 then?

 

I'll second Faleel on this - I do think this is a theme that carries significance in the narrative. The moment when the podracer starts up is directly connected to the relationship between Anakin and Shmi as she looks lovingly on him, having succeeded at making the racer functional.

 

The thing about these prequel scores is that themes (which, for me and I think Faleel too, means the use of characteristic melodies or figures that potentially have a focused association with the narrative) are frequently used far more subtly than in the original trilogy. So a bit of melody often operates at more in the background than the foreground as in much of the OT's themes. All I'm saying is that it's easy to dismiss these snippets in the prequels as nothing of significance. But when the context in the film is considered, it becomes much harder to do so, IMO. This is a case where I think the connection is pretty clear, but that's just me.

[Datameister 2,037]

I suppose it's all a semantics quibble - and not even a semantics quibble that there's ever been a consensus on. So don't mistake me for claiming that your viewpoint on this is somehow wrong. But for me, something like, say, "Across the Stars" exists in a wholly separate category from something like the melody in question, and I find it important not to use the same classification to describe them. The differences are enormous in terms of frequency and manner of use.

 

I suppose the question is where to draw the line. No one could successfully argue that a melody heard only once is a theme; the question is how close you're willing to get to that and still call something a theme - a question that's complicated significantly by the variety of ways music can function within a film.

[Ludwig 1,120]

3 minutes ago, Datameister said:

I suppose it's all a semantics quibble - and not even a semantics quibble that there's ever been a consensus on. So don't mistake me for claiming that your viewpoint on this is somehow wrong. But for me, something like, say, "Across the Stars" exists in a wholly separate category from something like the melody in question, and I find it important not to use the same classification to describe them. The differences are enormous in terms of frequency and manner of use.

 

I suppose the question is where to draw the line. No one could successfully argue that a melody heard only once is a theme; the question is how close you're willing to get to that and still call something a theme - a question that's complicated significantly by the variety of ways music can function within a film.

 

The thing is that the terms we use to describe concepts are fundamental to the way we understand them. Even the distinction of having to be heard more than once is not part of the definition for some - Faleel's list demonstrates that. If we make that distinction, then a theme like the Cantina Band is not a theme, which feels odd given its prominence in the film. Then there is Qui-Gon's funeral music, which appears once in TPM, so one might say it's not a theme, but then it reappears in ROTS, so it might somehow become a theme at this point - that feels odd too.

 

But this is straying from the point - theme or not, the question is whether the melody heard at the start of "The Podracer Roars to Life" has associative meaning or whether it simply has more of an emotional function. My vote is a definite yes, but we are in the realm of interpretation here, and with something as subtle as this, there is no real right or wrong.

[Incanus 5,713]

Well bless me! So the material appears in fragments in other cues from TPM. It might have significance as emotional underscore between Anakin and Shmi. Williams mentioned in interviews how he began his scoring process from these intimate personal scenes and then moved onto the more action heavy material. He developed a certain kind of style for these scenes but I don't know is there a larger thematic or rather leitmotific significance to this melody.

 

And I would not signify Cantina Band as a theme or a leitmotif per se as it is only meant as diegetic underscore for a single scene. However if it was given a more leitmotific purpose in subsequent films then it would become a leitmotif, which it of course didn't. Same goes for Qui-Gon's funeral music, which I wager started off as a one-off setpiece of dramatic underscore and in Episode III gained a leitmotific meaning because of its use in other funeral scenes. This might or might not have been the composer's original intention or it more likely than not was something director had his input on. This is not to say Williams might not have figured out that it would be great to thematically tie these scenes together by utilizing a previous melody from the film series.

 

Interesting example of suddenly expanded prominence of a theme is Duel of the Fates. It had thematic significance already in TPM as the final setpiece theme of quasi-religious nature and was foreshadowed throughout the film before its final unveiling but it was Lucas who liked it so much he gave it a larger role in the Prequels, as he invisaged it underscoring the pivotal moment in Episode III after he heard it. We don't know if Williams would have himself used it in Episodes II and III.

[Datameister 2,037]

Well, I guess this really does show the extent to which we disagree on this, Ludwig - like Incanus, I would never dream of calling any of the melodic material from Cantina Band a theme. Iconic, memorable, and enormous fun, yes...but I'd hardly call it a theme in the sense that, say, the Force theme is a theme. Even if it weren't diegetic in nature, I'd still only consider that material to be a theme in the traditional sense, i.e. a musical building block for a composition - not a theme in the film music sense, which I would loosely define as a melodic idea that's used numerous times across different parts of a film or film series, often in a leitmotivic (representational) fashion.

[Ludwig 1,120]

I don't want to bicker about defining things that are not the same because we are actually describing different (though overlapping) concepts. What Inky and Data are describing are leitmotifs, which are generally foregrounded and recurring - that is, they are quite obvious. What I'm talking about are any characteristic passages that might be interpreted as having associative meaning, regardless of whether it recurs or lies in the background.

 

I would emphasize that because this is a matter of interpretation that, again, we are talking about different things. I'm talking about interpreting the final product - the film itself - regardless of whether the composer or filmmakers intended something to come across or not. To discuss compositional intent is something quite different.

 

All this is to say that studying "themes" can be defined as something apart from leitmotifs and compositional intent.

[Datameister 2,037]

I do tend to use the word "theme" in a...more leitmotivic sense than you do, yes, but I can think of plenty of things I'd call themes but not leitmotifs. Think of something like Hedwig's theme, which (despite the name) doesn't function in a leitmotivic sense at all. Same goes for just about any film with a strong "main theme" - it acts more like a musical glue that holds the film together than a leitmotif that pops up every time a specific character, setting, idea, or object comes into play.

 

I'm also a lot more interested in compositional intent than you are, I think, so again our viewpoints diverge.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

The Lament/Padme's Visit motif reminds me of Anakin's Theme.