The Mystery of "The Map Room: Dawn"

[Loert 2,510]

I've been listening lately to the ROTLA score (in preparation for the LtP concert on Saturday!), and of course I happily came across "The Map Room: Dawn", which is probably my favourite 'religioso' Williams track. It's just got a perfect build-up and dissolution:

 

 

Anyway, one of my favourite bits from the track is the women's choir starting at around 3:22. The way it just seems to hover and then disappear into the air, like a ghostly apparition...perfect.  

 

However, lately I've been reading up on counterpoint in music, and since the choir is clearly acting as a contrapuntal line against the high winds, I was interested in finding out what notes the women's choir was actually singing. Because they seem to fit so well and naturally with the main melody, and yet there's something...spookish about them. Something a little out of place, which makes it hard to figure out the notes that they're actually singing.

 

So I decided to take a look at the original score...and what I found surprised me, to say the least!

 

This is what the original handwritten score has written down:

 

This is what it sounds like on piano: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18637418/maproom1.mp3

 

Now, this is a classic example of a contrapuntal line below a main melody. It fits harmonically, goes in contrary motion to the main melody, is stylistically similar...all perfect. A+ goes to Mr. Williams.

 

BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU HEAR IN THE RECORDING!!! You can tell this immediately from rhythm, because the choir at the Dm chord (bar 4) sings a single note in the recording, not two notes like in the score.

 

In fact, THIS is what you hear:

 

And this is what it sounds like on piano: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18637418/maproom2.mp3

 

The choir part is singing an entire measure ahead of the orchestra! And, honestly, compared to the previous excerpt, it sounds horrible on the piano, like a two-legged cat walking across the keyboard. So how interesting is it, that when the choir sings these exact same notes against the woodwind and trumpets on the original recording, it doesn't sound so ugly at all? It actually sounds...kinda heavenly?

 

I'm intrigued by how this came to be. My guess is that: the choir was recorded separately from the orchestra, and the beat counting got cocked up somehow, so when the orchestra and choir was put together the notes were out of sync. But I don't actually know if the choir was recorded separately... It is also possible that the copyist cocked up the sheet music for the choir, and had a bar missing somewhere.

 

But surely Williams would've picked up the error, in both cases?

 

So what if Williams instinctively suggested at the recording sessions that the choir should sing a measure ahead? Or somebody else with a deep knowledge of the orchestral score? Could he have predicted that the music would still sound so good, to the point that nobody would even consider a mismatch between the recording and sheet music used for the sessions, despite the fact that what the choir is singing doesn't go with the orchestra at all, tonally speaking?

 

There is of course the possibilty that Herbert Spencer cocked up and misread Williams' original sketch, but that doesn't seem realistic considering that the choir in the original score appears to be a textbook example of a contrapuntal line in the first place.

 

It's strange...and yet fascinating. If simply nobody picked up on it in the recording sessions, then I guess it's a happy mistake. But if this was a conscious decision on Williams' part, then I guess you could say he's got musical balls of steel...and that he's a genius.

 

I suppose it just goes to show that, sometimes, musical theory cannot predict when the greatest beauties in music might appear.  

 

What do you guys think? (and has anybody noticed this before?)

[Romão 2,274]

I cannot comment on technical details, but that particular passage you are reflecting upon was pretty much silent in themix of the DCC Raiders release. It might contain the full unedited Desert Chase, but I much prefer the mix on the Concorde set, for all the criticism it gets

[Datameister 2,037]

Fascinating...I totally never noticed the discrepancy, but boy, that's a great passage in a truly great cue. The dissonance created by the (incorrect) choral writing is wonderful, and I think it probably works so well because the timbre of the human voice is just so different from that of the various orchestral instruments.

 

I really wonder how this wonderful mistake came to be! Thanks for posting!

[Incanus 5,713]

Interesting observation on the choral passage for sure loert423. As Romão above I can't comment on the theory side of things but it is either a huge stroke of luck if it is a mistake or a brilliant musical move from the Maestro if it is adjustment made at the sessions for added effect.

 

3 hours ago, Romão said:

I cannot comment on technical details, but that particular passage you are reflecting upon was pretty much silent in themix of the DCC Raiders release. It might contain the full unedited Desert Chase, but I much prefer the mix on the Concorde set, for all the criticism it gets

The OST and Concord versions have indeed a much more preferable mix for the choir than the DCC. One of my favourite JW cues ever.

 

[Jay 37,282]

Maybe a bonus track on a future release could have the choir pushed back a bar to match the sheets

[Incanus 5,713]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Maybe a bonus track on a future release could have the choir pushed back a bar to match the sheets

Yes hopefully some day when a label releases the Final Ultimate Last Boxed Indy Set You'll Ever Need version.

[Quintus 5,399]

Great OP, thanks for the read. 

 

Before I knew who JW was, before the year of the revelation ('93), The Map Room: Dawn had always been one of my top 5 favourite film music cues. It's a very special piece which oddly gets spoken of very little here I've noticed. Nice to see it getting some of the attention and analysis it deserves. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,494]

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

Great OP, thanks for the read.

 

Before I knew who JW was, before the year of the revelation ('93), The Map Room: Dawn had always been one of my top 5 favourite film music cues. It's a very special piece which oddly gets spoken of very little here I've noticed. Nice to see it getting some of the attention and analysis it deserves.

 

Not by me, dude! next to "The Miracle Of The Ark" "TMR:D" is the best piece of music on ROTLA, and I have thought that ever since I bought my vinyl copy, in June, 1981.

 

 

loert423, you might find some additional information in Emilo's book about JW. It features a whole chapter on the score for "ROTLA". Emilo is also a JWfaner, if you wish to pm him.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

 It's a very special piece which oddly gets spoken of very little here I've noticed.

 

Possibly because the track is universally seen as being brilliant, hence there isnt a lot to go back and forth about, discussion wise.

[Incanus 5,713]

1 hour ago, Richard said:

 

Not by me, dude! next to "The Miracle Of The Ark" "TMR:D" is the best piece of music on ROTLA, and I have thought that ever since I bought my vinyl copy, in June, 1981.

 

 

loert423, you might find some additional information in Emilo's book about JW. It features a whole chapter on the score for "ROTLA". Emilo is also a JWfaner, if you wish to pm him.

Emilio Audissino actually dedicates the main chapters of his book John Williams's Film Music to the analysis of Raiders of the Lost Ark, not strictly from musicological point of view though but rather from the perspective of how it functions as a continuation of the spirit of the Golden Age. Excellent material as is the whole book.

[Quintus 5,399]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

 

Possibly because the track is universally seen as being brilliant, hence there isnt a lot to go back and forth about, discussion wise.

 

Maybe, but it doesn't stop people from going on about other cues from other beloved scores. 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Have you read Frank Lehman transformation theory-centred analysis of Dawn: Map Room, loert? It doesn't cover the passage in question, but I think you'd enjoy it!

 

http://www.academia.edu/4309552/Music_Theory_Through_the_Lens_of_Film

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

7 hours ago, Quintus said:

Great OP, thanks for the read. 

 

Before I knew who JW was, before the year of the revelation ('93), The Map Room: Dawn had always been one of my top 5 favourite film music cues. It's a very special piece which oddly gets spoken of very little here I've noticed. Nice to see it getting some of the attention and analysis it deserves. 

 

The scene where Indy lowers himself into the map room and the cue begins is one of those ultimate moments in a JW score scored film for me.

[Jay 37,282]

5 minutes ago, E.T. and Elliot said:

The scene where Indy lowers himself into the map room and the cue begins is one of those ultimate moments in a JW score scored film for me.

 

Yea!

[Datameister 2,037]

It's utter brilliance from start to finish. Easily one of my favorite cues of all time. The early statements of the Ark theme are spine-tinglingly eerie, perfectly underlining the fact that Indy is entering a chamber that's been hidden under the sand since antiquity. Then the music slowly but steadily builds with immaculately paced twists and turns, leading to those climactic sustained octaves with hints of the Ark theme shivering underneath. This is of course followed by a few quieter passages, including the wonderfully creepy one this thread is about.

 

What I love is the way this cue is how it has such a clear dramatic arc, with exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, and denouement. Obviously, most film score cues can't really do this, but this was a perfect opportunity and Williams really ran with it. The result is a cue that's supremely satisfying to listen to. People just don't write like this anymore.

[Jay 37,282]

5 minutes ago, Datameister said:

What I love is the way this cue is how it has such a clear dramatic arc, with exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, and denouement. Obviously, most film score cues can't really do this, but this was a perfect opportunity and Williams really ran with it. The result is a cue that's supremely satisfying to listen to. People just don't write like this anymore.

 

Yes!

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

This reminds me of Toothless Lost from HTTYD2, in the album version the final section of the track you hear the choir singing esentially in sync with the rest of the orchestra, as you'd normally expect, but in the film and FYC version, the two sections of the choir sing slightly out of bar compared to the regular version, giving it a more echo-like effect that is quite chilling. Sadly the cue itself is not on on YT (the FYC version that is) but I also wonder if it's something that got changed up on the booth, seeing as Powell often record different sections of the orchestra separately.

 

But back on topic, yes, Map Room is one of the best movie-music matches of all time.

[Quintus 5,399]

43 minutes ago, Datameister said:

It's utter brilliance from start to finish. Easily one of my favorite cues of all time. The early statements of the Ark theme are spine-tinglingly eerie, perfectly underlining the fact that Indy is entering a chamber that's been hidden under the sand since antiquity. Then the music slowly but steadily builds with immaculately paced twists and turns, leading to those climactic sustained octaves with hints of the Ark theme shivering underneath. This is of course followed by a few quieter passages, including the wonderfully creepy one this thread is about.

 

What I love is the way this cue is how it has such a clear dramatic arc, with exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, and denouement. Obviously, most film score cues can't really do this, but this was a perfect opportunity and Williams really ran with it. The result is a cue that's supremely satisfying to listen to. People just don't write like this anymore.

 

Giacchino? 

 

1 hour ago, E.T. and Elliot said:

 

The scene where Indy lowers himself into the map room and the cue begins is one of those ultimate moments in a JW score scored film for me.

 

That soft noiresque harp accompaniment...  sublime. It almost sounds like underscore for a dimly lit crime scene. 

[Datameister 2,037]

56 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

Giacchino? 

 

 

Not even!

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Many Zimmer scores still manage that.  But I shouldn't waste my breath I'm sure.

[Datameister 2,037]

You could be right - I'm just not sufficiently interested in his style to pay much attention, in a lot of cases. And the Zimmer scores I do like are typically not great exemplars of the type of writing I'm talking about.

[karelm 2,903]

I have seen a few places were the sketch differs from the final recording but in ways that make sense.  For example, an interval becomes more manageable.  I think this is an example of that.  Though I have no direct evidence of this, most tracking of instrumental sections such as the chorus wasn't really common back in the good old days and people who work with JW on these scores have frequently stated that what you hear is in the room.  So this would be a very noticeable error and does not sound like an error but a deliberate choice.  Interesting observation.

[Loert 2,510]

14 hours ago, Datameister said:

Fascinating...I totally never noticed the discrepancy, but boy, that's a great passage in a truly great cue. The dissonance created by the (incorrect) choral writing is wonderful, and I think it probably works so well because the timbre of the human voice is just so different from that of the various orchestral instruments.

 

I really wonder how this wonderful mistake came to be! Thanks for posting!

 

I think I remember reading something about this in Rimsky-Korsakov's Principles of Orchestration, where he said something like: the greater the difference in timbre between instruments, the more you can get away with them playing different things (which makes total sense). Although he probably wouldn't have allowed Williams to get away with such stark dissonance! (unless he were to treat it as a musical effect...which you can argue, it kinda is, as it sounds on the recording)

 

8 hours ago, Richard said:

loert423, you might find some additional information in Emilo's book about JW. It features a whole chapter on the score for "ROTLA". Emilo is also a JWfaner, if you wish to pm him.

 

Thank you for the suggestion!

 

5 hours ago, Sharky said:

Have you read Frank Lehman transformation theory-centred analysis of Dawn: Map Room, loert? It doesn't cover the passage in question, but I think you'd enjoy it!

 

http://www.academia.edu/4309552/Music_Theory_Through_the_Lens_of_Film

 

 

Ooo, Raiders AND King Kong? I will certainly have to look into this...

 

2 hours ago, E.T. and Elliot said:

 

The scene where Indy lowers himself into the map room and the cue begins is one of those ultimate moments in a JW score scored film for me.

 

Agreed 100%!

 

2 hours ago, Datameister said:

It's utter brilliance from start to finish. Easily one of my favorite cues of all time. The early statements of the Ark theme are spine-tinglingly eerie, perfectly underlining the fact that Indy is entering a chamber that's been hidden under the sand since antiquity. Then the music slowly but steadily builds with immaculately paced twists and turns, leading to those climactic sustained octaves with hints of the Ark theme shivering underneath. This is of course followed by a few quieter passages, including the wonderfully creepy one this thread is about.

 

Right on! Williams' pacing in the cue is faultless, and good pacing is one of the hardest things to do in musical composition (I'd say that achieving good pacing in music is sort of like a "holy grail" for composers). Williams is often criticized for 'over-writing', and yet The Map Room clearly shows that he knows when to pull back, in order to convey that 'religioso' feel. That central, main statement of the ark theme when Indy discovers the location of the ark would be nowhere near as effective had:

• Williams not included a "spine-tingingly eerie", sparsely orchestrated version of the theme at the beginning
• Williams used the women's choir beforehand
• Williams not taken on the motif in the harps at the beginning into the woodwinds

Instead, Williams knew how to draw out that dramatic arc...resulting in a gorgeous standalone track.

 

2 hours ago, Michael said:

This reminds me of Toothless Lost from HTTYD2, in the album version the final section of the track you hear the choir singing esentially in sync with the rest of the orchestra, as you'd normally expect, but in the film and FYC version, the two sections of the choir sing slightly out of bar compared to the regular version, giving it a more echo-like effect that is quite chilling.

 

I know the part that you mean! I seem to recall that that echo-y effect was inspired by a style of singing from the Outer Hebrides of Scotland, and the film version was probably what Powell originally intended, but then thought that it would sound better more in sync on the album. 

[Datameister 2,037]

Yeah I've seen that noted in a few orchestration textbooks - all else being equal, the more disparate the timbres are, the less you perceive dissonance as dissonance.

[Quintus 5,399]

How about those mean fanfares at the end as well, huh. Along with the recent Resistance March ones they're among my favorite showboating brass moments ever. 

 

Another interesting and noteworthy element is the uncharacteristically muted timpani during the first Sallah cutaway. The snares in particular are so soft, there's a marvelous subtlety to the militaristic tension which bubbles above the surface of the pit, injecting a sense of urgency into the job at hand both above and below the desert floor; the swirling strings growing increasingly devout beneath the ground as we cut back to Indy and the staff - a MacGuffin mechanic which has now taken on a tangible otherworldly mystique and power, thanks to Williams. It's friggin' godly spotting and a masterclass in musical pacing and scene enhancement. 

[Faleel 5,333]

I love the strings bit at 0:56

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I love it all!

[Datameister 2,037]

3 hours ago, Quintus said:

How about those mean fanfares at the end as well, huh. Along with the recent Resistance March ones they're among my favorite showboating brass moments ever. 

 

Another interesting and noteworthy element is the uncharacteristically muted timpani during the first Sallah cutaway. The snares in particular are so soft, there's a marvelous subtlety to the militaristic tension which bubbles above the surface of the pit, injecting a sense of urgency into the job at hand both above and below the desert floor; the swirling strings growing increasingly devout beneath the ground as we cut back to Indy and the staff - a MacGuffin mechanic which has now taken on a tangible otherworldly mystique and power, thanks to Williams. It's friggin' godly spotting and a masterclass in musical pacing and scene enhancement. 

 

Very well said.

[Amer 2,080]

After rediscovering ROTLA, after becoming soundtrack sentient,  I began researching information on the lost Ark at the school  library. I would dig books on biblical history, archaeology. And when ever I'd come across something eyebrow raising or of some importance I would play the 'Map Room Tanis' cue on my walkman. It would give me goosebumps. LOL!

[That_Bloke 115]

On 3/10/2016 at 0:24 PM, loert423 said:

 

 

So I decided to take a look at the original score...and what I found surprised me, to say the least!

 

I'm just curious where you found the original score to look at. And good post by the way.

[indy4 155]

Definitely one of JW's alltime greatest cues/themes

[bgcat57 2]

I have seen the small parts of the original score to ROTLA and though I have seen many pages of Herbert Spencer work for JW in Spencer's handwritten orchestrated scores though none in the actual hand of Williams himself. (I too wondered where you had the opportunity to read it.)

 

Regarding the issue of dissonance, this can range from beautiful to dissonant depending on the orchestration. There are a number of places in Stravinsky's Rite of Spring where literally all 12 notes in the diatonic scale scale are used at the same time, but based on both instrumentation and distribution, they do not sound as they would on a piano. Similarly Ravel, and Korngold amongst others, often may have so have dissonances that appear beautiful rather than ugly for this same reason. 

 

This particular queue is my favorite in ROTLA both for its rendering with the visuals in the film as well as its abiity to stand alone. I would love the opportunity to just see this and/or The Miracle from ROTLA. Spencer was magnificent in his ability to create a huge sound without an orchestra as large as it sounded. This is given that the orchestra wasn't small either.

 

[karelm 2,903]

Haha, I once had to score a scene temped with The Map Room!! 

[SteveMc 2,674]

Excellent thread.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

Very interesting OP!

 

Unfortunately I'm a musical ignoramus and can't hear whatever it is you've noticed

 

Although my two cents... comes across to me as a podium change that JW decided to try to see how it sounded. Interestingly I was watching the music documentary from The Hobbit last night, and remember the bit where Pope has to make a podium change, and it took a couple of attempts to get it right.

 

Hence I'd always err on the side of assuming the composer has tried something (based on some professional judgement) and it worked great, where it could just have easily have sounded rubbish. In my limited creative experimentation, both happen all the time.

[TJH132 48]

100% agree about the pure genius of the cue.  But what about the way it was treated in the final mix:  In the versions of the film I've seen, the "laser beam" sound effect at the climax COMPLETELY overshadows the music.  Distracts me to no end!

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

My guess is that the women's choir was a late addition to the cue, and when he scribbled it into the score he erratically did it with a one bar offset.

[Fabulin 3,510]

.

[Pando 141]

This is a fascinating discussion! I created a MIDI mockup of this entire piece which can be heard here (the relevant portion starts at 3:25)

 

And this is what the piece sounds like with the choir as actually written in the score. It actually sounds pretty good as well, but I definitely prefer the recorded version, the dissonance makes it sound more other-worldly.

 

 

 

[Pando 141]

On 3/9/2016 at 5:24 PM, Loert said:

So what if Williams instinctively suggested at the recording sessions that the choir should sing a measure ahead? Or somebody else with a deep knowledge of the orchestral score? Could he have predicted that the music would still sound so good, to the point that nobody would even consider a mismatch between the recording and sheet music used for the sessions, despite the fact that what the choir is singing doesn't go with the orchestra at all, tonally speaking?

 

What do you guys think? (and has anybody noticed this before?)

 

To add to my previous post, I really think that it's a late edit done at the scoring stage. In the original version the choir appears to lead the melody to the next phrase. In the final (recorded) version, the choir finishes the phrase and it forms a direct counterpoint melody with the flutes. They both work as the key doesn't really change inside the phrase, but the final version sounds better structurally.