Will The Hobbit age as well as The Lord of the Rings?

[Naïve Old Fart 9,516]

They are well made, competent films, but will EPs I - III be remembered as fondly? Essentially, they are afterthoughts, as are the Hobbit films. They will always be in the shadow of TLOTR, but, like Eps I - III, that is not necessarily a bad thing. At least they will be remembered.

 

Richard - only 18 hours later, this time.

[Jay 37,352]

I will probably watch the Hobbit films again someday.

 

I don't know if I'll ever watch the Star Wars prequels again.

[Wojo 2,453]

It might be fun to experiment with a child to watch the prequels first... But I don't know if my health care covers therapy. 

[Jay 37,352]

Hmm, actually Marcy has never seen them, so maybe we'll watch them together sometime.

[Wojo 2,453]

When we studied for TFA, she only wanted to watch the originals, which of course were Harmy's cuts 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

Hmm, actually Marcy has never seen them, so maybe we'll watch them together sometime.

 

If you love her...don't!

 

Or watch them drunk.

[mstrox 6,651]

Kids love the prequels.  My nieces loved Darth Maul, Padme, and Yoda.  Of course they've seen all of the movies now so they also love Chewbacca and R2 and Leia.  And Ahsoka from the Clone Wars.

 

The prequels are completely different movies when they are a) viewed by young eyes and b) viewed without nostalgia and anticipation.

 

While I find it personally difficult to watch the prequels (and my spouse still hasn't been able to make it through the second half of Attack of the Clones, which is a bummer because everything cool in AotC happens at the end), there are some people that grew up with those movies and that IS "Star Wars" to them - as much as or more than the OT.

 

The Hobbit movies were fine, and without the experience of LOTR before, would have been considered completely acceptable, fun, even good adaptations.  I still haven't gotten around to watching the extended BOFA though.  Someday.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It really will go down as one of the more boneheaded decisions in the history of filmmaking to turn it into a trilogy.  No amount of rationalizing by PJ or Boyens will convince me it was anything other than a financial decision.  It was right in the middle of when everybody was splitting their genre adaptations up in the wake of Deathly Hallows.

[mstrox 6,651]

I thought so too, and still do think so to some extent, but there is a LOT of footage from Hobbiton to Beorn's house, and a LOT of footage from Beorn's house to Hobbiton.  Even without reshot footage, it would have taken some very judicious editing to get anything close to two three-hour movies.  Jackson probably requested another film to revel in his excesses, and the studio surely pounced on it because $$$$$$.

[Jay 37,352]

Nah, 2 3-hour films is exactly right for this story they shot.

Don't forget, a lot of the reshoots in '13 were used to REPLACE footage originally shot, not simply extra stuff.  There's tons of original material we've never seen.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I still think the trilogy was a nice decision. It's just that both AUJ and DoS may be 20 minutes too long, and BOTFA is 30 minutes too short.

[Jay 37,352]

I don't mind that they made a trilogy out of these storylines, but the problem was that they wrote it as two then expanded it to three via quickly written reshoots, rather than writing it as a trilogy from the start

[Disco Stu 15,495]

This is my real answer to the thread question.

 

Speaks for itself :/

[Jay 37,352]

[Barnald 365]

To be fair, it's kind of mesmeric in gif form

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Right? I almost went into a fugue state watching it.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,352]

I'm referring to footage that was written to replace footage that was originally shot.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

I still wonder if PJ's decision was largely motivated by a realization that there was no way he was going to get AUJ completed in time (with convincing effects) and so had an idea to shave off some effects heavy sequences (Beorn, spiders, barrels, Dol Guldur?) from the back end of it. I mean, when you think of how hectic the post-production of AUJ was anyway, and how some of the CGI looks a little ropey as it is, doing all that other shit probably would have killed him and most of his crew. And how the hell was he fixing on filming a giant battle so late in the first filming block? He knew it couldn't be done, and so tried to buy time (and it wasn't like the film could be delayed again). He probably looked at it and worked out he could probably stretch it to three films, but that was on the basis only of what he'd filmed already and rough estimates of other bits and pieces, rather than anything fully formed. He probably knew Warner would warm to the three films idea, and I suspect wouldn't have wanted them to panic, so span it as a case of him having enough footage/story for three films.

 

This idea is also given traction by the fact that he admits 'winging it' for most of films 2 and 3. We know he had no idea of a 'climax' for DoS until a late stage, no idea of how the battle would go. Probably a case in 2012 of 'Oh let's make our lives (slightly) easier now and worry about the hard shit when the times comes'. All things that a long and steady pre-production would probably have fixed, but alas it was not be.

[Jay 37,352]

28 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

 

Well yes of course... I mean what scenes specifically?

Well, like the first two that come to mind would be

 

-In the 2-film cut Gandalf goes to the High Fells in between Rivendell and saving the Dwarves in Goblintown, and he has a conversation with Galadriel about that before he leaves.  In the 3-film cut, that Gandalf/Galadriel dialogue is gone forever (never heard by us) and they had to add that stupid scene where he has that vision or whatever outside Mirkwood and that sends him to the High Fells

 

-In the 2-film cut Gandalf goes to Dol Goldur outside of Mi

Well, like the first two that come to mind would be

 

-In the 2-film cut Gandalf goes to the High Fells in between Rivendell and saving the Dwarves in Goblintown, and he has a conversation with Galadriel about that before he leaves.  In the 3-film cut, that Gandalf/Galadriel dialogue is gone forever (never heard by us) and they had to add that stupid scene where he has that vision or whatever outside Mirkwood and that sends him to the High Fells.  Also in the 2-film cut, Gandalf goes to Dol Goldur outside of Mirkwood, not High Fells, so whatever he originally said there is gone

 

-In the 2-film cut after being saved by the Eagles then head down the carrack and meet Beorn.  In the 3-film cut we have that ridiculous chase sequence and have lost whatever was originally said on top of hte carrack.  The whole "resolving of tension between Thorin and Bilbo" was originally to happen after the barrel chase, so however that originally went is gone forever.

 

etc.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,352]

The entire conversation Gandalf and Radagast has outside the High Fells is a reshoot

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

Well one might argue that PJ's need to change Azog may well have been one of the considerations behind him seeking to lessen additional workload for post AUJ. I mean, it's not like they could jettison their main villain at that stage.

 

I think Manu Bennett was filming stuff in July or August - after the three-film decision - so it could be that they only pursued that option after the fact. Maybe if they had to stick with 2 films they'd have thought 'fuck it' and just gone with what they had.

[Jay 37,352]

52 minutes ago, SafeUnderHill said:

Interesting, I didn't know this, thanks for the info. What were they originally talking about?

 

I have absolutely no idea what any dialogue cut from the 2film version would be unless it appeared in the BD special features

[gkgyver 1,645]

7 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

This is my real answer to the thread question.

 

Speaks for itself :/

 

Nope, that is the only semi decent shot of that scene. What kills it are the awful green screen shots.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I love that scene.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Not surprising ...

 

Anyway.

 

@ Jay

 

I never took that moment on the entrance to Mirkwood as a vision or something by Gandalf, but rather him remembering what Galadriel told him in AUJ, a quasi flashback to dialogue we didn't see. The drawing of the Great Eye told him the matter was urgent, as evil is spreading, and reminded him to go. He most likely also thought the dwarves needed his help more confronting Smaug, as that was why the dwarves took him with them, so better go now instead of later. He told them to not enter the mountain under any circumstance without him for that reason.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Either way, the entire scene outside Mirkwood is awkward and clumsy storytelling.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Blame the book.

Would have been even clumsier if shot as written.

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Barnald 365]

For various reasons, I'd have much preferred the High Fells scene in AUJ. They could have given Gandalf something else to do in DoS. Maybe his journey through Mirkwood could have been shown, facing a few dangers along the way. Perhaps he stops at Rhosgobel, I don't know. Perhaps they might even have integrated Beorn into this storyline (given that he was supposed to be captured and held in Dol Guldur by the time of the third film).

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I'm still pissed off Beorn's incarceration didn't make it into the extended editions. 

[Jay 37,352]

"pissed"? That's extreme

 

I'm more annoyed by the lack of people actually speaking at Thorin's funeral.

[Barnald 365]

Maybe we'll get the 'Beorn Cut' of BotFA some day. You get the impression the moment they decided to cut him from the front end of the film they couldn't be arsed to bother with him at the end, which is a huge shame. That pre-vis sequence is a real tease.

[Incanus 5,714]

I am still annoyed by the whole Azog plotline.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its origins are from Tolkiens writings. They just changed a name. No biggie.

[Incanus 5,714]

15 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Its origins are from Tolkiens writings. They just changed a name. No biggie.

It is the origin of a larger mess plotwise. Explaining deviations from the original plot and Tolkien's writings only got them deeper into the mire of their own fabrications.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

10 hours ago, Jay said:

"pissed"? That's extreme

 

Yes, pissed, I tell you!

 

Seriously, though, I was really looking forward to seeing that expanded upon. Particularly when they teased there would be "more Beorn" in the EE. What we got was about three extra shots of him fighting and him attending Thorin's funeral. He is entirely inconsequential in the larger scheme of the trilogy. They could have cut him from the trilogy altogether and it wouldn't make much of a difference (except they'd need to reshoot the Company entering Mirkwood without horses, but that's pretty much it). Such a waste.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Is Thorin's father and the fact that Gandalf met him mentioned at all in the Five Armies EE?

[Barnald 365]

Nope. You sense they must have cut something when he's exchanging words with Thorin at the walls. It's probably that which really sends Thorin over the edge (if the Arkenstone business hadn't already).

 

Setting up things without proper resolution was a real problem with BotFA. Thrain, Beorn - it's hard to see why PJ greatly expanded on these elements in DoS EE without resolving them in the third film, even in its EE. Even the Dol Guldur plotline felt unresolved, in need of a brief White Council scene at Rivendell near the end which clarified the situation with the rings, established the intents of various characters (like Radagast and Saruman), and perhaps hinted at things to come. To be quite honest the film could have done with another half hour - or rather, half hour of good material which might have replaced more inconsequential scenes. You can't help but feel there's still stuff on the cutting room floor which would prove very good additions (such as the initial meeting with Thranduil in DoS, or the acorn scene in BotFA), which is frustrating.

 

In addition to lots more Beorn, Boyens also promised a 'lovely' scene between Dain and Bilbo in that Empire podcast. How great it would have been to see Dain ask Bilbo about his share of the treasure, for Bilbo to ask only for the necklace, then give it to Thranduil before he leaves. I think the post-battle section could have done with another 10 minutes at least, but Jackson probably wanted to avoid the ROTK criticisms, even with the EE.

[Gollum Cat 24]

1 hour ago, Barnald said:

but Jackson probably wanted to avoid the ROTK criticisms, even with the EE.

 

I loved the way he handled the end of ROTK - I remember even my father remarking in theatres years ago on how he appreciated that PJ didn't just chunk the ring into the fire and finish, but that he spent generous time wrapping up all the loose ends.

[Barnald 365]

I think most fans of the films did. I don't get the criticism at all, but we've all heard it down the years. I can't help but think Jackson was conscious of that with BotFA. No extended farewells with the Dwarves (which we know were filmed); no Bilbo meeting Dain (filmed); no suggestion of Balin's intentions for Moria (I have to think this would have been filmed); no Bilbo giving the necklace to Thranduil; a very brief funeral with very brief Dain 'coronation' which could do with expanding; no Bard coronation; no suggestion of stronger ties between Erebor and Dale going forward; a very short return journey for Bilbo and Gandalf cutting out Beorn's house, Rivendell and the Trollshaws; no final White Council meeting (this would be my invention of course, but it makes sense, tying up some loose ends). I think that's everything. And to be fair, you could fit most of that stuff in about 10-12 minutes, it wouldn't need be long. It would just...help.

 

I didn't even include Gandalf and Balin's visit in this, which seems impossible to include as things stand. I would instead have had a very brief epilogue in which old Bilbo finds among his birthday letters one from Bofur, in which he brings Bilbo up to date with what has happened (we'd see a brief montage, with Nesbitt voiceover). Things like Erebor and Dale prospering (I guess Bain could be ruler now); Beorn and the Beornings; perhaps that they haven't heard from Balin's expedition for some time (just an ominous shot of Balin and co arriving at Moria - we wouldn't see too much); some updates on the the company (Bombur being so fat he requires several Dwarves to carry him would be an obvious visual); maybe something about the Woodland Realm (maybe trade related, showing closer ties). Old Bilbo smiles, puts the letter down, then hears a knock at the door. I don't imagine it would be too intrusive. It would also improve the tone of the climax, which is a little too downbeat and foreboding for my tastes.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

To be fair, LOTR absolutely earned its extended, emotional denouement.  I don't think The Hobbit would have earned it.

[Barnald 365]

I don't really see the 'earning' argument myself (I guess I'm fairly myopic when it comes to these things - as in I wanted to see it, that's all that matters), but if the EE's are truly for the fans, and disregard the typical cinematic rules of pacing and whatnot, then I can't see why some of that wasn't included (providing it was filmed).

 

Watching the DoS extras, I knew something was up when Jackson said he didn't reinstate the proper introduction to Thranduil because it harmed the pacing (or something like that). Surely that's not an overriding concerns with the EE's? I thought the logic was that they were for the fans, and the fans would have appreciated something like that drawn (seemingly) from the book. You got the impression with the LOTR EE's they set about adding as much as possible, even if it meant harming the pacing or ruining certain reveals (like the Corsairs for example).

[gkgyver 1,645]

The Hobbiton ending is perfect. If an epilogue was to be added, then during the journey montage after Bilbo's goodbye. Doesn't even need narration.

 

But PJ didn't add it in RotK too. 

[Barnald 365]

That's a point. The epilogue isn't necessary of course - that's just personal preference. I'd still love to see the ROTK one someday.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I do not need an epilogue. But the detail that annoys the crap out of me, and that shows PJ really didn't give a shit anymore, is that the box of gold that Bilbo brings home was cut and never reinstated.

 

It's like PJ knew it really didn't matter anymore, and turned BOTFA EE into his personal canvas for ridiculous combat scenes.

[Incanus 5,714]

7 hours ago, gkgyver said:

I do not need an epilogue. But the detail that annoys the crap out of me, and that shows PJ really didn't give a shit anymore, is that the box of gold that Bilbo brings home was cut and never reinstated.

 

It's like PJ knew it really didn't matter anymore, and turned BOTFA EE into his personal canvas for ridiculous combat scenes.

These films really needed more personal Bilbo moments and less battles.