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gkgyver

Will The Hobbit age as well as The Lord of the Rings?

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1 hour ago, TGP said:

This is an inaccurate post.

 

Was it two tenor trombones and one bass for the LPO, then? I know the NZSO's low brass section is larger by one piece. Plus, Shore occasionally augmented them with added horns or a second tuba.

 

Its certainly a more pronounced section of the orchestra, in all the parts of the sextet that were scored in New Zealand.

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I believe the NZSO's roster has the usual three trombonists.  But obviously an orchestra augments its players with what the piece requires.  The LOTR low brass is two tenor trombones, a bass trombone, and one tuba, both the London and New Zealand material.  This was consistent until DOS which featured a second bass trombone - a 2nd bass clarinet as well.  I don't believe there was ever a second tuba or more than 5 horns.  One never knows with trombonists though, or any brass players for that matter.  They will play the part on whatever instrument suits it best.  Entirely possible the third had a tenor along with the bass and switched.  Incidentally it can be argued that a decrease in the practice of selecting the right instruments for the parts in the brass section is part of the changed sound of Hollywood orchestras.  No more descant horns or principle trumpets on Eb's or D's with the second on C and three/four on Bb's.  

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Shore actually used multiple variations upon his basic lineup: there's definitely a second tuba in the Moria bits of The Fellowship of the Ring; There's a sixth horn in the Mount Doom stuff (and in the Symphony recording); two sets of timpani in multiple sections of the scores; two taikos for Helm's deep; eight trumpets for the charge of the Rohirrim; four flutes (instead of three) for some of the Rivendell material; The NZSO also rolls around with four clarinets, as opposed to the LPO's three, and also used a bass oboe (or heckelphone - the details aren't clear) for The Desolation of Smaug, which would add up to four oboes, as well; the size of the choirs, too, changed significantly between different pieces, I wouldn't be surprised to find subtle variations in the number of strings, etcetra.

 

The basic NZSO lineup for these seems to have been four trombones consistenty. The LPO's three trombones. I count at least three here, as well:

 

TTT1.png

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Where are you getting that information from?  The timpani and percussion and choir changed a lot of course but as far as I know the other sections were all consistent.  Doug or Jim are the only ones who could give definitive information though.

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The four flutes are mentioned a couple of times in the Two Towers' Anotated score -- "Four alto flutes ascend in their clement, airy tones, dreamily hailing the arrival of a soprano voice. Sheila Chandra performs 'The Grace of the Valar'" -- as is the sixth horn, in the Return of the King one: "Six French horns bellow the History/Evil of the Ring hybrid" . A sixth horn player is also credited in the Symphony recording. Later live performances would use seven, too.

 

Eight trumpets are from Dermot Crehan's memory: "Dermot’s fondest recollection of performing on this Hardanger was when Howard asked him to join an eight strong trumpet session to play the ‘Rohan’ theme. This fiddle was easily audible amongst the magnificent sound of the trumpet section of the London Philharmonic orchestra" - makes sense given how the piece sounds, too. I wouldn't be surprised if the other brass parts were increased similarly, and were recorded apart from the trumpets and hardanger.

 

I'll have to dig a bit more to recall the second tuba being used in Moria, but from memory it was Doug Adams who confirmed it.

 

EDIT: found it: "He was speaking generally [with regards to the layout of the orchestra - implying more variations elsewhere...]yes there are two tubas here. Shore expanded his low brass forces for the Moria music." Never let it be said that I'm not thorough!

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You know I always assumed some of those bits from Doug's book might have just been errors but who knows.  Unfortunately there isn't much to go by because the symphony score would certainly have been streamlined in its instrumentation so that isn't totally reliable.  And of course the original conductor's scores are not really out there so to speak.

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Interesting Doug thanks for that.  Lack of imagination on my part to think you'd have made errors rather than Shore being a little flexible with his lineup.  There are so many great tidbits of info about these scores from you spread around forums that I've missed, I think you need to compile them all into another volume.  Also - get those conductor's scores published somehow!

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8 hours ago, Doug Adams said:

They’re not errors. The orchestra membership changed when required.

 

I knew it!

 

Were there any other major variations in the orchestra to speak of, for either The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit?

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