if TFA soundtrack album was formatted like other star wars soundtracks, what do you think the track listing would be?

[JacksonElmore 69]

Since a new hope, the soundtrack albums have not been formatted in a chronological manner. Although the soundtracks have been re released and put in order, it was not how the original listening experience was supposed to be. The force awakens is the first soundtrack album where we really got a (for the most part) clear chronological representation of the music in the film. I know there is a lot of music that is NOT chronological, but for the most part it is...if TFA track listing was formatted like the original trilogy soundtracks, how different do you think the order would be? Do you think it would make a difference if after 'main title and attack' we heard rey's theme followed by march of the resistance/scherzo for x-wings, or do you think it's all the same shit? Kind of a pointless question, but i always found it interesting that many of these albums are put together for the listening experience of hearing it track by track, rather then worrying about where the music is in the film. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

There'd probably be a lot of combined tracks.

[mstrox 6,643]

 

Main Title and Finn's Confession and Finale

Rey's Theme

March of the Resistance

The Rathtars!

Attack on the Jakku Village (this track would not include the music for the attack on Jakku village, it would be "The Starkiller")

 

Scherzo for X-Wings

Maz's Counsel/On the Inside

Torn Apart

The Abduction

Snoke

The Jedi Steps and Finale

 

[artguy360 1,843]

Yeah it would be a mess and probably a far worse listening experience than it currently is. The first track would be listed as Main Title and the Attack on the Jakku Village but it would actually be the main title followed by a terrible edit into Follow Me then end on a cross fade into Snoke.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

This thread is probably the funniest thing I've seen on this forum in a long time.

[crumbs 14,297]

You forgot "Main Title (Reprise)," which would replace the end titles with a jerky edit after The Jedi Steps, followed by another awkward segue into "Rey's Theme (Reprise)" which would actually be an alternate of The Scavenger.

[Thor 7,463]

Is the TFA album really formatted that differently from the previous SW albums?

 

Seems like a great continuation to me -- arranged for listening (thank God!) by Williams himself.

[Jay 37,281]

7 minutes ago, Thor said:

Is the TFA album really formatted that differently from the previous SW albums?

 

Yes.  It's one of the most-chronological OSTs Williams has ever put out (off the top of my head only maybe War Horse is more chronological)

[JacksonElmore 69]

5 hours ago, Thor said:

Is the TFA album really formatted that differently from the previous SW albums?

 

Seems like a great continuation to me -- arranged for listening (thank God!) by Williams himself.

the new special releases of the original trilogy are all in order, but go look at the original releases for 4,5 and 6. I mean for the initial release of a new hope he goes from the jawa theme to ben kenobi's death/Tie fighter attack to more of the jawa's, then to rescue of the princess, then to "inner city" which starts with the cue that plays as the falcon is being sucked into the death star and then segway's into Ob1's theme (force theme) from his first appearance on tatooine, and then we go to the cantina band. it's ridiculous. But I must admit i don't mind it, it's a cool mix of variety, and feels more like a crafted album then the chronological versions do

[Thor 7,463]

13 hours ago, Jay said:

 

Yes.  It's one of the most-chronological OSTs Williams has ever put out (off the top of my head only maybe War Horse is more chronological)

 

Disconcerting if that's the case, but at least it's still not quite C&C, and Williams still manages to pick out the best cues for our listening pleasure. I'm still not totally warmed to the TFA score, but at least it's decently presented.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Chronological isnt a bad word, Thor!

[crumbs 14,297]

I think the refreshing part about the OST is that, unlike most of our fears anticipated, the score highlights are mostly all presented intact. No egregious microedits, no soaring fanfares left off. Barring The Resistance Arrives, all the highlights are here. 

 

A nice change from the prequel OSTs.

[Thor 7,463]

33 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Chronological isnt a bad word, Thor!

 

In terms of soundtrack presentations, it's the worst word on the planet! (OK, 'complete' is even worse).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But if John Williams decides that a near chronological order is the way he wants to present this score to his listeners, why are we...eeehhh...you to argue with that?

 

Hasnt that always been your angle? The music presented on album in a way the composer thinks its most listenable?

[Jay 37,281]

Williams always assembles his albums for listening experience, if the order of the music happens to be almost the same as the film's that's just coincidence.  While War Horse and TFA are very chronological, Tintin, Lincoln, and Book Thief are all over the place, so I wouldn't say his methodology has changed over the years.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed. I think just in those two instances a near chronological order is what came out best for him.

 

Lets hope for Thor's sake The BFG will have the End Credits as track 5.

[Jay 37,281]

18 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I think just in those two instances a near chronological order is what came out best for him.

 

Definitely.  In War Horse's case, the film and score is firmly structured as 3 separate acts, which each act having its own set of themes with very little spillover of themes from one act to another.  It would be a chaotic listening experience to hop back and forth between music from the different acts instead of the very nice flow the album program has.

 

While I have the War Horse FYC and also expanded edits made from blu ray rips, etc, I still find myself listening to the OST for War Horse more than any other presentation.  It's one of Williams' best assembled OSTs imho.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Another OST bashing thread?

[Thor 7,463]

57 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

But if John Williams decides that a near chronological order is the way he wants to present this score to his listeners, why are we...eeehhh...you to argue with that?

 

Hasnt that always been your angle? The music presented on album in a way the composer thinks its most listenable?

 

First of all, I doubt he'll ever do that (presenting something complete & chronological), unless he's approached to overlook some expansion initiated by a label.

 

Second, if he chose to do that, it would basically be a moot point. No artistic adaptation or re-contextualization has taken place, hence it disqualifies itself. I only consider a composer's input/choices valuable if there have been, you know, some actual choices (selection of cues, re-shuffling of cues etc.). Presenting something C&C is just a matter of technological transfer, really, so it wouldn't matter if the composer said this was his preferred presentation. It's a cop-out. No adaptive choices have been made. It's disqualified as an artistic adaption. But it does qualify as an archival/archeological/preservative item, if that's your thing.

 

25 minutes ago, Nick Tatopoulos's Beret said:

Another OST bashing thread?

 

Was there ever any other around here?

[Wojo 2,453]

Bullshit. 

 

Bull. 

 

And shit. 

 

Deriving inspiration from onscreen action is artistry. 

Writing the music is artistry. 

Playing the music correctly and expressively is artistry. 

 

Selecting certain passages of the recorded music to create an album is also artistry, but it's never been the final extent of the artistic adaptation. It's proficiency at cutting and pasting that tells the musical players that some musical passages they were paid to record aren't good enough for the consumer to hear outside the film. 

 

Which is bullshit. 

[Datameister 2,037]

4 hours ago, Thor said:

Presenting something C&C is just a matter of technological transfer, really, so it wouldn't matter if the composer said this was his preferred presentation. It's a cop-out. No adaptive choices have been made. It's disqualified as an artistic adaption. But it does qualify as an archival/archeological/preservative item, if that's your thing.

 

It still fascinates me that you're so vehemently opposed to hearing the music simply as it was written and recorded. I can completely understand enjoying certain "artistic adaptions" - there are some albums out there that truly rework a film score into something that works better on CD. But this quasi-religious belief that all film music absolutely must be changed in order to be a valid album is...perplexing, to say the least. It's as if you think the process of changing the music is the entire point of the album's existence.

 

For me, the value of music doesn't come from the effort put into editing and rearranging it. The value of music comes from the music.

[Thor 7,463]

33 minutes ago, Datameister said:

For me, the value of music doesn't come from the effort put into editing and rearranging it. The value of music comes from the music.

 

I agree. Which is why I think it's so crucial to adapt it to its new medium so it can shine in its full glory, not be hampered by a structure from some distant medium it is no longer part of. If I want to hear it in relation to, or as part of, the film in some way....well, I'll watch the film. For me, these are so self-evident aspects, it surprises me (well, used to surprise me, anyway) that I'm in such a minority on this.

[Jay 37,281]

@Datameister don't even try; @Thor will never change.

[Thor 7,463]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

@Datameister don't even try; @Thor will never change.

 

Jay is right. If anything, I've grown to hate this release philosophy even more than I used to.

 

I've been debating this for so long that I've seen pretty much every imagineable argument, and I always have a counter-argument ready to go. Not that it wouldn't be interesting to debate once again, but no one is ever going to convince either side that they're wrong. It's such a subjective thing; a fundamental difference in how one approaches soundtracks which will never be reconciled. All one can ask for is tolerance that both approaches exist.

[Wojo 2,453]

So when are you going to start tolerating C&C? 

[Thor 7,463]

2 minutes ago, WojinPA said:

So when are you going to start tolerating C&C? 

 

I will never tolerate C&C, but I do tolerate and accept the people who prefer it. I expect the same from the other side, but it has proven unusually difficult over the years.

[Wojo 2,453]

4 minutes ago, Thor said:

I will never tolerate C&C

 

29 minutes ago, Thor said:

All one can ask for is tolerance that both approaches exist.

 

Excellent points. Thank you for your refreshing honesty. 

 

Troll. 

[steb74 53]

You're certainly not in the minority Thor, countless thousands have been championing that approach a long, long, long time before you were ever interested.

Most if not all are not only tolerant of both approaches but enthusiastically welcome them and are perfectly happy to enjoy the merits of each.

It's you unfortunately that has the bad mannered obsession to consistently force your preference upon others.

There is no need for reconciliation on the majority's part, it's you that has to develop are more mature sensibility in accepting our differences and respecting them without resorting to trollish behaviour when others disagree with you.

 

Yes it's tough and challenging but it's all part of growing up, you'll love it .........

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

43 minutes ago, Thor said:

 

I agree. Which is why I think it's so crucial to adapt it to its new medium so it can shine in its full glory, not be hampered by a structure from some distant medium it is no longer part of. If I want to hear it in relation to, or as part of, the film in some way....well, I'll watch the film.

 

But the music was conceived to be heard in the film's order, and that order is encoded within every measure--especially so with composers like Williams, North and Goldsmith. Any linear development of motifs or ideas is harmed by disrupting that original sequence. Personally when listening to an album edit, the film sequence is like a phantom limb or a bad itch. It's there but not there, and its presence/absence is always felt.

[Thor 7,463]

18 minutes ago, WojinPA said:

 

 

Excellent points. Thank you for your refreshing honesty. 

 

Troll. 

 

So who is displaying the 'tolerance' here? I -- who accept and tolerate those who prefer C&C, even if I hate that particular approach myself -- or you, who resort to personal insults because I don't share your philosophy?

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you for proving my point.

[Wojo 2,453]

Yawn. 

[Thor 7,463]

How eloquent and mature.

[Wojo 2,453]

Not at all. That's me being tolerant. I pointed out the ridiculously hypocritical nature of your argument and I'm satisfied. 

 

Yawn. 

[Thor 7,463]

I'm curious to know why you think it's hypocritical. I never said you had to tolerate/like the way a soundtrack is presented (whether C&C or arranged for listening), but one should always tolerate another's differing preference, and that such a different preference exists. Just as you have to tolerate someone liking a particular type of food that you hate. This seems to be difficult for you, however.

[Wojo 2,453]

Still here? 

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

Hey, if you are thrice divorced, and are mad to us once or twice divorced that is only ridiculous!!! 

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

48 minutes ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

 

But the music was conceived to be heard in the film's order, and that order is encoded within every measure--especially so with composers like Williams, North and Goldsmith. Any linear development of motifs or ideas is harmed by disrupting that original sequence. Personally when listening to an album edit, the film sequence is like a phantom limb or a bad itch. It's there but not there, and its presence/absence is always felt.

 

Exactly this.  I can understand a desire to trim certain material for a more streamlined album, especially in the current climate of overscoring films with very samey music, but chronology is integral to the form of the music in almost all cases.

 

If you were one of the fools who thinks, say, Bruckner 4 is too long, you might cut certain material and passages to create a more concise piece of music.  But you would not decide to place the third movement ahead of the first.

[Loert 2,510]

I may be in a minority here but I do believe that film and the music to that film are very much inseperable - I think "understanding" the film itself is crucial to "understanding" the soundtrack, so to speak. Therefore setting up the tracks in chronological order, as they appear in the film, seems the obvious order to me.

 

I know that Williams says he likes to order the tracks differently to create a more interesting listening experience by balancing out the tempi, dynamics etc. to achieve a greater density of variety (like a menu...) But personally I am not really bothered by this - it is music for a film, and I treat it more like a catalogue of the main music pieces present in the film rather than one long "suite" tailored artistically to a listening audience (which is what concert music is for). It just seems more convenient and logical that the further into the album you go, the further into the film you go, if that makes sense. And if the first half is non-stop quiet string elegies, and the last half is non-stop brutal action music, then so be it - that's how the film was constructed.

 

But obviously some people believe that a soundtrack should be more like a "pleasant interesting experience" where the tracks are independent of the order in film. I don't mind it so much but...I would much prefer it if every soundtrack was arranged in chronological order, as a default state (and many of the ones I listen to the most are, anyway). 

[mrbellamy 6,272]

At least where Williams is concerned, when it comes to alternate artistic interpretations of a film score for an abridged "pure" listening experience, I place a lot more value on his theme/cue arrangements and suites for end credits and concerts. I always feel like more is communicated about his thought process and his feelings on the scores from the material he chooses for those and how they're adapted and presented for listening.

 

The OST arrangements, I guess there's a certain amount of artistry there but I can't remember any time where I felt like a track order or a micro-edit was making much of a statement. Sometimes the choices are interesting, what's left in, what's left out, which cues are paired together, but I've never found it very inspiring to ruminate on. The reasoning when things start moving out of chronology usually strikes me as fairly technical or superficial, sometimes clever, occasionally silly, once in awhile totally confusing, but profound? I mean...no. I couldn't really compare a soundtrack to a pop/rock album where the process of ordering disparate tracks is much more variable. Except for concept albums, where the music is of course conceived in a certain order and strangely enough also presented in that order.

[artguy360 1,843]

I don't mind JW re-ordering his music to make for a different listening experience on the OSTs but I can't stand it when the title of a track is not reflective of the music on the actual track. The Ep 1 OST is particularly guilty of this and that mis-association is really off putting. 

[JacksonElmore 69]

10 hours ago, artguy360 said:

I don't mind JW re-ordering his music to make for a different listening experience on the OSTs but I can't stand it when the title of a track is not reflective of the music on the actual track. The Ep 1 OST is particularly guilty of this and that mis-association is really off putting. 

i agree with this completely.

 

On another note:

this is late, but no, this is not "another OT bashing thread." I didn't mean to get everyones panties in a  bunch here, the reason for the post was just wondering what others thoughts were on the topic. If the soundtrack release is identical to the way it appears in the film and not altered at all, I am fine with that. I will admit though that if the content is mixed differently or presented in a way where it is very clear that the composer has a vision for what the album should sound like out of context from the film, it makes me feel like there was more thought put in to the experience I have listening to the album then when there is nothing altered. However, that doesn't take away from the music on either example of the album representation, the music is music. And that's what I judge it on

[Thor 7,463]

1 hour ago, JacksonElmore said:

I will admit though that if the content is mixed differently or presented in a way where it is very clear that the composer has a vision for what the album should sound like out of context from the film, it makes me feel like there was more thought put in to the experience I have listening to the album then when there is nothing altered.

 

That was a long sentence, but I think I know what you mean, and I agree.

For me, listening to a C&C release (and believe me, I've tried many times) is basically like "listening to the film" without the sound effects and dialogue. And if that's what I want, I'd rather watch the film with the images, sound and dialogue to hear it in its proper context.

 

The film doesn't really exist for me when I listen to soundtrack albums. The music may have been written for a film at some point, but with some artistic tinkering; some selection and sequencing from the composer (preferably), it plays out more like a concept album in the style of prog rock, classical music or instrumental electronic music -- which was my pathway into soundtracks in the first place.

 

To bring this back on-topic (sort of), it will be interesting to see what path Williams follows in his last few soundtrack albums -- if they'll be more or less chronological in the style of TFA and WAR HORSE, or if it will be more on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Tom 4,633]

3 minutes ago, Thor said:

his last few

Nonsense--his pacemaker is made of pure philosopher's stone. 

[Thor 7,463]

He, he...OK, let's say the "last few" is made up of dozens upon dozens of titles.

[Jay 37,281]

42 minutes ago, Thor said:

it will be interesting to see what path Williams follows in his last few soundtrack albums

 

Dude!  JW could have another 20 years of scoring films in him!  Don't say that!

[mstrox 6,643]

If Williams doesn't score Episode XV, I'll riot.  Nobody but him can complete the Star Wars quinceantillogy

[Thor 7,463]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

Dude!  JW could have another 20 years of scoring films in him!  Don't say that!

 

I agree. Well, not 20 years, perhaps, but at least 10.

[TownerFan 4,983]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

For me, listening to a C&C release (and believe me, I've tried many times) is basically like "listening to the film" without the sound effects and dialogue. And if that's what I want, I'd rather watch the film with the images, sound and dialogue to hear it in its proper context.

 

It's not that way every time, especially if we're talking about JW. When I listen to a complete presentation of a score I don't necessarily relive the film and its narrative, but I always focus on the music itself--how it's written, orchestrated, performed, as if I'm listening to a symphony or a ballet score and I get a lot of pleasure just from that. For example, I was listening to the complete Superman just the other day and I was struck once again by how beautiful is all the music JW wrote for that film. Even though it's not music born to be listened that way, there is plenty to enjoy just on the musical side at least with some composers and some specific scores. You can get the same experience from an abridged and more time-savvy presentation, but sometimes it's just great to have more music to listen to. Of course it's a matter of personal preference in the end and there's nothing wrong favouring one presentation over another. For me there are no rules and I choose on a case by case basis.

[Thor 7,463]

I'm envious that you can get that out of a C&C presentation, Townerfan. I don't. With a handful of exceptions, it's mostly a gruelling experience. But it goes to show how different our brains work; how we like the things we do and other things not so much.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What if it's a score for which you have not even seen the film yet?