Complete "Breaking of the Fellowship" NZSO

[Gollum Cat 24]

Sorry to start a new thread if this is addressed elsewhere - but does there exist a complete version of the Breaking of the Fellowship cue performed by the NZSO? I know much of it was in the extended Fan Credits for FOTR, as well as the Andrew Lesnie tribute.

[Jay 37,346]

IIRC those are the only two places it's leaked, though @Fennel Ka would know better than I.

 

 

No need to apologize for starting a new thread; that's the whole point of this place!

[Faleel 5,346]

There are a few appearances un the LOTR appendices but I have not gone through them paying attention those appearances

[Jay 37,346]

I must have gone 10+ years before even realizing the fan credits version was edited.

[Jim Ware 526]

FYI the complete NZSO recording is 8:30 in total, just under two minutes longer than the Fan Club credits edit.

[Jay 37,346]

[Barnald 365]

Did Doug clarify why this wasn't included on the Rarities Archive? I think the previous logic was that it could be ripped off the fan club credits, but obviously that was before we were aware the piece was a good bit longer.

[crumbs 14,306]

Such a stunning piece that always feels at least a few minutes shorter than it deserves to be -- now I know why!

[Jay 37,346]

19 minutes ago, Barnald said:

Did Doug clarify why this wasn't included on the Rarities Archive? I think the previous logic was that it could be ripped off the fan club credits, but obviously that was before we were aware the piece was a good bit longer.

 

I think you answered your own question

8 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Such a stunning piece that always feels at least a few minutes shorter than it deserves to be -- now I know why!

 

This means the end of the film used to have 2 whole more minutes of stuff happening before the credits rolled; I wonder what?

[Jim Ware 526]

15 minutes ago, Barnald said:

Did Doug clarify why this wasn't included on the Rarities Archive? I think the previous logic was that it could be ripped off the fan club credits, but obviously that was before we were aware the piece was a good bit longer.

 

That was the logic.  I don't think the existence of the longer version was known at the time.

 

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

This means the end of the film used to have 2 whole more minutes of stuff happening before the credits rolled; I wonder what?

 

I'm not sure if this was actually recorded to picture, but the April 2001 cut would in all likelihood have been less tight than the release cut (hence the numerous trims in the Moria compositions).

[Jay 37,346]

1 minute ago, Jim Ware said:

 

That was the logic.  I don't think the existence of the longer version was known at the time.

 

I don't understand this.  Howard Shore wrote and recorded it; Of course he was aware of its existence

 

Do you mean the session element of the full take had gone missing?

[Jim Ware 526]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

 

I don't understand this.  Howard Shore wrote and recorded it; Of course he was aware of its existence

Do you mean the session element of the full take had gone missing?

 

No - I'm sure that the session elements are fine.  With the sheer quantity of material to be reviewed when curating the rarities archive it was probably just overlooked.

 

[crumbs 14,306]

30 minutes ago, Jay said:

This means the end of the film used to have 2 whole more minutes of stuff happening before the credits rolled; I wonder what?

 

I just did a quick comparison of the alternate cue (the 6:42 we do have) with the final film and there's a few key differences. Frodo standing in solitude on the beach is brilliantly unscored in the final film but Shore clearly wrote music to accompany all of that in the alternate. Presumably the other missing two minutes accompanied Boromir's death, because there's no obvious microedits in the music we do have. Was that scene included in the LOTR reel which this music accompanied?

 

I'd be very interested to see the alternate cue matched up to vision of the final film; would provide a great indication as to what footage was removed (probably a few shots here and there to tighten the cut). There's enough similarities between the early and final versions of the cue to line things up, IMHO.

[Jay 37,346]

13 minutes ago, Jim Ware said:

 

No - I'm sure that the session elements are fine.  With the sheer quantity of material to be reviewed when curating the rarities archive it was probably just overlooked.

 

 

I don't think it was overlooked when assembling the rarities; I'm sure given the choice between including this 8 1/2 minute track (6:42 of which we already have via the DVD/BD) or 8 1/2 minutes of music we've never heard, the choice was obvious.

Of course, if the rarities could have been 2 discs instead of 1, it would have been a must-have track!

[Jim Ware 526]

In any case, its existence has definitely been noted now.

[crumbs 14,306]

I did a little editing test and matched the Breaking of the Fellowship alternate to the final film. Incredibly, it fits almost perfectly. 

 

The only footage edit I had to make was a 10 second extension to shots of Aragorn watching Frodo & Sam reach the opposite shore and head into the forest. It's remarkable how little Jackson changed this film's ending throughout months of post-production; just imagine if this were a Hobbit film!

 

I don't know how to embed video clips from VidMe (never used it before) so hopefully this link works:

 

https://vid.me/AuAU

[Jay 37,346]

Sweet!

[Kühni 485]

What I would give to hear this complete piece in all its sublime glory just once... 

[Jay 37,346]

Indeed!

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[gkgyver 1,645]

7 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

 

No - I'm sure that the session elements are fine.  With the sheer quantity of material to be reviewed when curating the rarities archive it was probably just overlooked.

 

 

You know, I usually am a polite fella, but ...

 

WHAT THE FUCK?

 

This isn't an obscure cue alternate for Pippin and the apple that nobody ever heard or would miss, this is a MAJOR alternate of THE MAJOR scene in FotR, and people HAVE heard it, and WERE expecting it. The simplest logic dictates to go to the centerpieces of the films, and see if there are worthy alternates. 

I don't believe for a moment that it was just "overlooked", when there was a conscious decision made, as stated repeatedly, to not include the edited version.

 

It was probably overlooked in the Same way the intact edits on FotR CR were artistic decisions.

 

Shore doesn't just "forget" these things. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

More LOTR themed fanboy entitlement, with Gyver as the biggest whiner. Boooowhooohooo!

 

Typical JWfan

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Personally, I only ever care about an alternate if it's a radically different composition for the same scene (e.g., the first version of "Binary Sunset"), but other than that they're the tracks I never play on expanded releases. Glad others enjoy them!

[Richard Penna 3,684]

I somewhat share Gyver's sentiment - this is a major alternate for a pivotal scene - certainly more different and notable than some cues that were included on TRA.

 

If they were going with cues that had never been heard before, ok, but if there's a version with several minutes' more music, I'd say it would've been a perfect way to close the CD!

 

Should we feel 'entitled'? Well, last time I looked, most people here really want the prequel sessions, which I'd imagine is hours of music and zillions of alternates. I think we have the right to dream about what a LotR session leak might be like.

[Jay 37,346]

Gkgyver - again, facing a choice between 8 1/2 minutes of something we already had 80% of vs 8 1/2 minutes of music completely new to us, they absolutely made the correct choice.

 

And, again, surely if they had given us 2CDs instead of one, it would have been a no brainer on that type of release. But they only had one, and made the right choices.

 

 

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

 last time I looked, most people here really want the prequel sessions, which I'd imagine is hours of music and zillions of alternates.

 

You're wrong. TPM had three inserts, AOTC had three, and ROTS had one I think. Williams didn't do a lot of revising on those films; he had to move on to other projects, and GL just tracked music to get the tone he wanted.

[gkgyver 1,645]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

Gkgyver - again, facing a choice between 8 1/2 minutes of something we already had 80% of vs 8 1/2 minutes of music completely new to us, they absolutely made the correct choice.

 

And, again, surely if they had given us 2CDs instead of one, it would have been a no brainer on that type of release. But they only had one, and made the right choices.

 

 

 

You're wrong. TPM had three inserts, AOTC had three, and ROTS had one I think. Williams didn't do a lot of revising on those films; he had to move on to other projects, and GL just tracked music to get the tone he wanted.

 

Is it really that comfortable for you to support the assumption they obviously made in that case, that people buying this stuff are not only few, but utter geeks who ripped the piece from DVD Ages ago, instead of treating it as a legit, widely popular release consumed by people

who want to hear proper mastering and CD tracks, which always was said to be the intention?

[crumbs 14,306]

What's everyone's opinion on Shore's unused opening minute or so of the cue? Gives it a drastically different feeling to the poignant silence in the final film (which I probably prefer), yet works wonderfully in its own way. That beautiful theme (I'm not a scholar on these scores, so I don't know what it's called) during the long dolly-in shot of Frodo is just dripping with sadness, giving such emotional weight to Frodo's decision.

[Jim Ware 526]

8 hours ago, gkgyver said:

You know, I usually am a polite fella, but ...

 

WHAT THE FUCK?

 

Eight and a half minutes is a lot of disc space to sacrifice for something that is already available in some form, especially considering the sheer quantity of other previously unheard material.

[Richard Penna 3,684]

11 hours ago, Jay said:

You're wrong. TPM had three inserts, AOTC had three, and ROTS had one I think. Williams didn't do a lot of revising on those films; he had to move on to other projects, and GL just tracked music to get the tone he wanted.

 

Regardless, wouldn't you be disappointed if there was a re-release with alternates, which omitted a key revision? Heck, you were commenting on Varese leaving the original 'Klendathu Drop' off ST. In that case, you've got the track already on your OST! You can't make that argument, and then criticise others for wanting an alternate of equal magnitude.

 

In this case, clearly there were capacity considerations, but that should not remove from the argument that this alternate cue would have been a very worthy and important inclusion.

[mstrox 6,651]

15 hours ago, Stefancos said:

More LOTR themed fanboy entitlement, with Gyver as the biggest whiner. Boooowhooohooo!

 

Typical JWfan

 

Ford?

[Jay 37,346]

On 15/07/2016 at 7:50 AM, Richard Penna said:

 

Regardless, wouldn't you be disappointed if there was a re-release with alternates, which omitted a key revision? Heck, you were commenting on Varese leaving the original 'Klendathu Drop' off ST. In that case, you've got the track already on your OST! You can't make that argument, and then criticise others for wanting an alternate of equal magnitude.

 

In this case, clearly there were capacity considerations, but that should not remove from the argument that this alternate cue would have been a very worthy and important inclusion.

 

The Rarities disc was packed to the brim; There was simply no room to add another 8 1/2 minutes track.

 

The Starship Troopers set runs 104 minutes total; They had 56 minutes of empty space they could have filled up with the original OST + all the other alternates they didn't include at all + the source cues Basil recorded, but they chose not to.  Two complete different scenarios; It's apples and oranges

[Jim Ware 526]

11 minutes ago, Jay said:

What are you talking about?  The Rarities disc was packed to the brim; There was simply no room to add another 8 1/2 minutes track.

 

Exactly.  Had the rarities been released on a format with a higher capacity as originally suggested, I'm sure that this and other compositions could have been included.

 

Even if that had been the case people would still be complaining. 

[Jay 37,346]

The best solution is to re-release FOTR as a 4 disc set, where discs 1-3 are the same format as before only with all the tracking and editing undone, with the original intended mixes instead of final film mixes with lower choir (basically: Rebuild the complete score from scratch from start to finish from pristine studio elements, don't take anything from the film's music stem), and have disc 4 be a collection of alternate versions.  Start right with the alternate prologue and go chronologically through the film until you end with the NZSO finale cue (unless there is some alt end credits stuff worth including too).  

 

Now THAT would be a killer 4CD set (and the gem of my film score collection).

[Faleel 5,346]

23 hours ago, crumbs said:

Had the CR been done with out tracking in the first place there would have been more room on the rarities too

[Jay 37,346]

That's not true; There is no rarities track that repeats a FOTR track only with tracking removed.

[Barnald 365]

Jay has the right idea with that 4-disc set. It's been what, 10 years now since the CR was released? That seems long enough to avoid complaints.

 

To be honest, I can understand this composition not being included, but I'm more intrigued by the idea that its existence in the longer form may have been unknown for some time. Makes you wonder if anything else might have turned up in the meantime...

[Faleel 5,346]

29 minutes ago, Jay said:

That's not true; There is no rarities track that repeats a FOTR track only with tracking removed.

The Uruk-Hai is just Fighting Uruk-Hai without the intro edited out, To Rivendell theatrical could have bee edited down like other rarities tracks were if it were'nt for the music that was edited out of the CR

[Jay 37,346]

19 minutes ago, Barnald said:

Jay has the right idea with that 4-disc set. It's been what, 10 years now since the CR was released? That seems long enough to avoid complaints.

 

To be honest, I can understand this composition not being included, but I'm more intrigued by the idea that its existence in the longer form may have been unknown for some time. Makes you wonder if anything else might have turned up in the meantime...

 

@Fennel Ka has found so many amazing alternates digging through all the DVD, Blu Rays, games, etc etc that I have to think most things have been heard, but I'm sure a future set could include a few surprises even for those who follow all that, and for everyone else there will be tons of stuff unheard to enjoy on CD properly, it would be great!

 

 

6 minutes ago, Fennel Ka said:

The Uruk-Hai is just Fighting Uruk-Hai without the intro edited out, To Rivendell theatrical could have bee edited down like other rarities tracks were if it were'nt for the music that was edited out of the CR

 

It is a shame that opening Uruk Hai music wasn't on the CR.... I mean, its not really an alternate, just a section of music dialed out of the film that the CR didn't restore.

[gkgyver 1,645]

8 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

 

Eight and a half minutes is a lot of disc space to sacrifice for something that is already available in some form, especially considering the sheer quantity of other previously unheard material.

 

Yeah, well, there is Sammath Naur, and last time I checked, half of it, if not more, was already on album and CR.

Anduril is another example where much of it was already out.

 

That is no proper excuse.

 

Also, the sheer quantity of other unheard material sure made its presence known in not very large amounts, especially Fellowship. I find that a remarkably inconsiderate remark, given that the CR is what it is, and that the rarities are crammed as hell.

 

It was not smart from the beginning to have one CD for mockups AND alternates AND an interview, for what was supposed to give a lot of background for 12 hours of music.

[Jay 37,346]

13 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

 

Yeah, well, there is Sammath Naur, and last time I checked, half of it, if not more, was already on album and CR.

Anduril is another example where much of it was already out.

 

That is no proper excuse.

 

You're coming across as very angry and extremely ungrateful for no real reason I can uderstand, GK

 

We're all on the same page that we love the FOTR score and hope more music comes out some day; Why bother getting literally angry about decisions made 6-11 years ago?

 

 

 

Quote

Also, the sheer quantity of other unheard material sure made its presence known in not very large amounts, especially Fellowship. I find that a remarkably inconsiderate remark, given that the CR is what it is, and that the rarities are crammed as hell.

 

It was not smart from the beginning to have one CD for mockups AND alternates AND an interview, for what was supposed to give a lot of background for 12 hours of music.

 

That wasn't the idea from the beginning;  Originally it was a 2 DVD set with video content.  We would have gotten lots more alternates, and lots more of the Doug/Howard discussion, and we would have seen them talking too (they were all filmed).

 

Then it became 1 DVD, then it became 2 CDs, then ultimately 1 CD as a freebie with the book...

 

 

Frankly what happened from 2005-2010 is completely fine with me - it is what it is.

 

But its 2016 now, and a new standard has been set by the specialty labels of how to re-release older scores, and a new product is hopefully being seriously considered by all parties that need to be on board to make it happen.

[Faleel 5,346]

There really are not that many true alternates, mostly overlay differences and theatrical versions

[Jay 37,346]

Sure, but a disc dedicated to FOTR alternates could be a very solid listening experience, almost like an alternate universe version of an OST program.  And if they did it right, they could make it so you could swap any alternate you prefer over the other version by just swapping tracks in your digital playlist.

[Faleel 5,346]

But then Shore wouldn't be able to do his super long tracks!

[Jay 37,346]

I'm not a fan of the some of the decisions made on FOTR of combining several cues into long tracks - especially "Keep It Secret Keep It Safe", "A Conspiracy Unmasked", and "Balin's Tomb"

 

I would hope a future release could consider only combining cues together that are also connected in the film.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I mean, the best example of that is putting the signature Fellowship theme performance at the end of "Gilraen's Memorial", right?  I'd have broken those cues up differently at least.

[Jim Ware 526]

There are no cues. 

 

But yes, I would have split the tracks in different places.

[Jay 37,346]

5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I mean, the best example of that is putting the signature Fellowship theme performance at the end of "Gilraen's Memorial", right?  I'd have broken those cues up differently at least.

 

Yea, I would have put the Legolas / Gilraen scene as its own track, and then the Mithril / Fellowship Departing scene as its own track.

 

Then on the bonus disc, the Mithril / Fellowship Departing track would be even shorter without that EE extension in the middle.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just now, Jim Ware said:

There are no cues. 

 

Mind. Blown.

[Jay 37,346]

1 minute ago, Jim Ware said:

There are no cues. 

 

You know exactly what I meant.

[Gollum Cat 24]

Ok, good to know - then I'll give a shot at editing together the Tribute music and the Fan Club credits rip!