Is Chinatown Jerry Goldsmith's most influential score?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

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a twist of French New Wave

 

But who are we talking about here? Pierre Jansen, Antoine Duhamel, Jean-Claude Eloy? It's a nice turn of phrase by I doubt Goldsmith was influenced directly by any of these. It's more likely they shared a similar set of influences. Particularly French--Messaien, Boulez, Koechlin, Dutilleux, Stravinsky (a Francisised Russian), Varese, etc.

[Muad'Dib 1,802]

 

[mrbellamy 6,278]

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

[Thor 7,493]

45 minutes ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

 

But who are we talking about here? Pierre Jansen, Antoine Duhamel, Jean-Claude Eloy? It's a nice turn of phrase by I doubt Goldsmith was influenced directly by any of these. It's more likely they shared a similar set of influences. Particularly French--Messaien, Boulez, Koechlin, Dutilleux, Stravinsky (a Francisised Russian), Varese, etc.

 

Maybe so on a general basis, but none or very few of those classical composers are present in the soundscapes of CHINATOWN. Hollywood was importing aesthetics from European film trends (especially New Wave) like madmen in the 60s and into the early 70s, and incorporated them into more streamlined Hollywood narratives. CHINATOWN was one such film -- a great hybrid of American film noirs of yesteryear and European 'arthouse' aesthetics. It's only natural that this applied to the scores too, whether consciously or not.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Just now, Thor said:

Maybe so on a general basis, but none or very few of those classical composers are present in the soundscapes of CHINATOWN.

 

And of course you would know, Thor.

 

Those composers I mentioned (I should have included Cowell, Crumb and Takemitsu) were modernists and informed the language Goldsmith used for the score, .

[mxncr12 4]

2 hours ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

 

I know, but you implied that Chinatown started the association of neo-noir with symphonic jazz, but The Detective was 6 years prior. And even then, you have earlier scores like Bernstein's The Man with the Golden Arm, Ellington's Anatomy of a Murder, and TV themes like Steiner's Perry Mason and Mancini's Peter Gunn. Plus, you can't discount the jazz-crime connection in Raksin's The Big Combo, Mancini's Touch of Evil and so on. By 1974 that connection's pretty solidified, but what I think Goldsmith did with Chinatown (along with Polanski, Towne etc.) is bring that earlier form and aesthetic to the realm of New Hollywood.

 

I don't think I was arguing that there weren't a number of crime films or some 1950s film noir that didn't use jazz.  I think I acknowledged that.  My contention was more along the lines that Chinatown had a presence of a strong bluesy melody that served as a foundation for the rest of musical material; the score combines a jazzy trumpet melody with avant-garde classical textures, which most of the score consists of; as you pointed out, that was largely influenced by Henry Cowell and George Crumb.  I also read that some of the solo trumpet was influenced by Shostakovich's First Piano Concerto and André Jolivet's Trumpet Concertino.  Certainly some of the strings of the main theme are influenced by Steiner and Korngold.

 

In any event, here's what prompet my post: various articles from Film Score Monthly that referenced neo-noir scores since I did not concoct that notion about Chinatown being a trendsetting noir score:

 

Chinatown

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2004/27_May---One_Hundred_Favorite_Themes_Part_Two.asp

Body Heat

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2006/25_Jan---My_One_Hundred_Favorite_Film_Scores_Part_One.asp

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2003/26_Jun---Not_Even_Nominated_Part_Two.asp

The Black Dahlia

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2006/08_Feb---This_Years_Movies_Part_One.asp

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2006/13_Sep---Early_Predictions_Part_One.asp

Farewell, My Lovely

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/cds/detail.cfm/CDID/218/Farewell-My-Lovely-Monkey-Shines/

 

 

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

BTW, do you know what pieces this blogger's referring to?

 

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So what did Goldsmith come up with? For starters, the instrumentation could hardly be more unusual: four pianos, four harps, two percussionists, string orchestra, and solo trumpet. Ignoring the trumpet for the moment, it's obvious we're in the orbit of Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta and – to a lesser extent – Les Noces. And yet the one thing the Chinatown music can't be accused of is being mindlessly derivative. (Only in the first bit of the cue titled "The Boy on a Horse" and perhaps towards the end of "The Last of Ida" does Goldsmith approach literal quotation.)

 

http://soundproofedblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/jerry-goldsmith-chinatown.html

 

Is the canon in "The Boy on a Horse" ripped straight from Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta? I'll have to revisit it.

 

[mxncr12 4]

2 hours ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

BTW, do you know what pieces this blogger's referring to?

 

 

http://soundproofedblog.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/jerry-goldsmith-chinatown.html

 

Is the canon in "The Boy on a Horse" ripped straight from Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta? I'll have to revisit it.

 

From that blog, I'm mostly familiar with Crumb's inside the piano innovations.  

 

In fact, one can very easily argue that not only is Chinatown the best use of piano in a film score, but that the use of piano is the real showcase of the score.

 

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Best use of piano in a film score? Not even close.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

There are certainly other strong contenders.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

BvS because of Zimmers use of piano for the Lex Luthor material 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

That's not real music.  He's not a real composer.  Stop being silly.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Haters will hate!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Interstellar is better than everything.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Don't be silly!

[mxncr12 4]

57 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

Best use of piano in a film score? Not even close.

 

It's difficult to think of another score more synchronously intelligently conceived and as dynamic as Chinatown.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Well, which is it - best use of a piano in a film score, or most synchronously intelligently conceived and dynamic piano part in a film score?  The results will certainly be different.  Is it also fair to assume that we're talking only about instances of the piano being used up front if not outright featured, and not the many, many instances of it being used as an orchestral instrument?

 

A fine recent example of the former that you may find interesting, based on this thread, is Alberto Iglesias' Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy.

 

Some other favorites of mine are Desplat's The Painted Veil, Zimmer's Frost/Nixon and the aforementioned Interstellar, any number of Tom Newman scores, and of course, A.I.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

8 minutes ago, mxncr12 said:

 

It's difficult to think of another score more synchronously intelligently conceived and as dynamic as Chinatown.

Chinatown is a great score, but I don't hold it on the highest of pedestals as you seem to do. It isn't even the best film noir score.

[publicist 4,643]

8 hours ago, Thor said:

Maybe not, but if it had had any influence beyond being a good score, it would have been a reference point in established literature on film music history. It is not.

 

I actually found it remarkable how often it is cited - in whatever context - in literature.

8 hours ago, Thor said:

I'm well aware that many Goldsmith fans want one of his scores to have the same degree of influence that some of the established cornerstones have, but history simply doesn't allow it. He was never really about that. He was unique. He was original (in his heyday). He was often at the cutting edge of what was happening. And he had bits and pieces of influence, mostly within his general style. But he never had that one influential score. Most of these contentions stem from what I call the "Goldsmith Inferiority Complex", and while this doesn't necessarily apply to you, it's something that I've seen for many years -- especially over at a certain other forum.

 

But that's part of YOUR problem, being so hell-bent on proving otherwise that you deliberately bend your argumentation that nearly every trace of Goldsmithian influence on film composers (yeah, i'm talking about the music not about Joe Schmoe whistling the Imperial March on 'Who's gonna be a Millionaire') is reduced to mere crumbs which is, to be plain and frank, bullshit and you probably know it.

[mxncr12 4]

9 minutes ago, TheWhiteRider said:

Well, which is it - best use of a piano in a film score, or most intelligently conceived piano part in a film score?  The results will certainly be different.  Is it also fair to assume that we're talking only about instances of the piano being used up front if not outright featured, and not the many, many instances of it being used as an orchestral instrument?

 

 

 

 

I was primarily denoting the very different ways piano is used in the film score to convey very different ambiances, so that may or may not fit that criteria.

 

11 minutes ago, Koray Savas said:

Chinatown is a great score, but I don't hold it on the highest of pedestals as you seem to do. It isn't even the best film noir score.

 

Everybody, of course, has an opinion.  Scores of people not only find it the best noir score, but one of the 10 greatest film scores of all time.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Then, thinking freely about the notable appearance of a piano or pianos to any degree in any score, I would point to Don Davis' Matrix triptych, Zimmer's Interstellar, Corigliano's Altered States, and quite a few Horner entries for highly versatile usage of the instrument as soloist, orchestral player, or even section - whichever. 

[publicist 4,643]

It's more a score colleagues and composers in general acknowledge. Like with everything in film music, FILM is always the focal point. If that score was applied to something like 'Shamus', nobody would give a shit.

 

That's why i maintain that the influence of more 'maverick' composers, be it Goldsmith, Morricone, Herrmann or Jarre (percussion!), and especially their approach is much more extensive than it first meets the eye. Because younger composers consciously or subconsciously pick up a lot. Half of Horner's library for thrillers and suspense scenes was virtually built on stuff like 'Capricorn One' which was in 'Brainstorm', 'Aliens', 'Titanic' and even 'The Rocketeer'.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Very good point.

[publicist 4,643]

Why, thank you. I have no doubt in due time Thor will kick back with another incredibly broad generalization that completely negates the point.

[Thor 7,493]

3 hours ago, publicist said:

I actually found it remarkable how often it is cited - in whatever context - in literature.

 

The film, maybe. The score has never been a broad reference point on the scale we're talking about here.

 

Quote

 

But that's part of YOUR problem, being so hell-bent on proving otherwise that you deliberately bend your argumentation that nearly every trace of Goldsmithian influence on film composers (yeah, i'm talking about the music not about Joe Schmoe whistling the Imperial March on 'Who's gonna be a Millionaire') is reduced to mere crumbs which is, to be plain and frank, bullshit and you probably know it.

 

I'm not hell-bent on proving anything. I'm more interested in observable data. If Goldsmith had had any major, influential score, we would have known about it by now -- simply by observing any major consequences (or lack thereof) that one of his scores had. I'm also fascinated by Goldsmith fans like yourself who continually employ 'wishful thinking' because you feel he didn't get the recognition he deserved. That's the true bullshit, I think, and it needs to be continually called upon (see, I can do personal and aggressive rhetorics too!).

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He was influential enough to have his Air Force One theme to be highly sought after at political conventions every four years.

[chuck 154]

Don't forget Rudy.

[publicist 4,643]

42 minutes ago, Thor said:

I'm not hell-bent on proving anything. I'm more interested in observable data. If Goldsmith had had any major, influential score, we would have known about it by now -- simply by observing any major consequences (or lack thereof) that one of his scores had. I'm also fascinated by Goldsmith fans like yourself who continually employ 'wishful thinking' because you feel he didn't get the recognition he deserved. That's the true bullshit, I think, and it needs to be continually called upon (see, I can do personal and aggressive rhetorics too!).

 

Thor, again your major specialty of lying with half-truths rears its ugly head (it would make you most useful in all forms of political propaganda). In fact, the discussion has so moved on from 'the one major influential score' that your quichotical tries to drag this into the ring to prove YOUR POV AGAIN seems pitiful, to be frank.

 

And it is not me who lacks critical distance from Goldsmith or indeed any other composer i like (i have written enough critical stuff here to prove it). 

[Thor 7,493]

18 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

Thor, again your major specialty of lying with half-truths rears its ugly head (it would make you most useful in all forms of political propaganda). In fact, the discussion has so moved on from 'the one major influential score' that your quichotical tries to drag this into the ring to prove YOUR POV AGAIN seems pitiful, to be frank.

 

And it is not me who lacks critical distance from Goldsmith or indeed any other composer i like (i have written enough critical stuff here to prove it). 

 

Oooh....I see you can play with even dirtier rhetoric. How clever of you. Trump would be proud.

 

Has the discussion really moved away from the 'one major influential score'? If so, I can't see it. I just respond to what is being written (unlike you, who prefer to drag things down to a personal and muddy level). Or did you expect to get the last word in with what you wrote earlier?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

6 hours ago, Koray Savas said:

Chinatown is a great score, but I don't hold it on the highest of pedestals as you seem to do. It isn't even the best film noir score.

 

 

Really? What do would you rank ahead of it?

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

Has the discussion really moved away from the 'one major influential score'? If so, I can't see it. I just respond to what is being written (unlike you, who prefer to drag things down to a personal and muddy level). Or did you expect to get the last word in with what you wrote earlier?

 

Of course you can't see it because you seem unable to process anything that moves beyond the cemented foundations of the world according to Thor.

 

You might complain about my so-called vicious attacks on you but it stands to reason that you have endure a lot of this on different websites and you might contemplate that it's not exclusively because everyone else is a bugger.

 

As usual, i cut any conversation on this subject with you off here.

 

Signed with regards,

 

The angry and eternally frustrated Goldie fanboy

[Quintus 5,399]

Saw this coming a mile off, the descent into argumentative loggerheads. It's why a lot of us older guard can't be arsed getting into it anymore, or that's how it is for me at least. All that time spent typing! 

 

 

[Thor 7,493]

8 hours ago, publicist said:

You might complain about my so-called vicious attacks on you but it stands to reason that you have endure a lot of this on different websites and you might contemplate that it's not exclusively because everyone else is a bugger.

 

No, in this case it was just you.

 

You might contemplate for a moment that you don't have to get personal just because someone disagrees with your viewpoints. I've seen you use this tactic several times on this board, and not only in conversations with me.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

13 hours ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

Really? What do would you rank ahead of it?

The Third Man

 

[A24 4,331]

Did Goldsmith ever have a hit? Has he ever been MECO-fied?

 

[publicist 4,643]

Probably Star Trek..?

[A24 4,331]

Holy cow! You are right!

 

 

[Thor 7,493]

All things being relative, he also had moderate success, "hit-wise", with the theme from PAPILLON. I'm still hearing it performed by street accordionists around the world. And was it Sarah Brightman who recorded a song version of the POWDER theme? Not a "hit" by any definition, but a slight bit of exposure.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

Influential? How the hell would I know. All I know is that I love listening to it.

I still maintain that his most influential score is "Capricorn One", for so many reasons.

[A24 4,331]

3 hours ago, Richard said:

Influential? How the hell would I know.

 

Well, you would know if contemporary film composers are citing him either musically or in interviews. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Air Force One is obviously Goldsmith's most influential score. It's being used by Trump, the next President of the free world!

[A24 4,331]

That's not the definition of influential, in my book. Something is only influential is it's passed on through the work of other artists. 

 

 

Cheers!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

3 hours ago, Alexcremers said:

 

Well, you would know if contemporary film composers are citing him either musically or in interviews. 

 

Composers do quote JG musically, but I guess that I personally have not heard it quoted. Doesn't mean it's not influential.

What I'm trying to say is: I don't give a fuck for influential... and I don't suppose JG did, either.

[A24 4,331]

1 minute ago, Richard said:

 

I don't give a fuck for influential...

 

Well, I do. 'Influence' is what has inspired almost everything ever created. It has been the driving force of every artist that has ever lived. 

 

 

 

Cheers!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

We are either reacting with, or reacting against.

 In that case, everything anyone does is influential, to a degree.

[mxncr12 4]

On 7/20/2016 at 2:37 PM, Thor said:

If CHINATOWN is anything, it's a combination of earlier film noir scores (from the 40s onwards), non-film noir jazz scores from the 50s (and beyond) and a twist of French New Wave -- applied to a Hollywood setting.

 

I guess that its common knowledge today, but jazz passages are present in non-film noir films of the 1940s such as The Uninvited (1944) and Green Dolphin Street (1947), in addition to the point you alluded to, that symphonic jazz was evident in non-film noir jazz scores such as A Streetcar Named Desire (1951) and The Wild One (1953).

 

So Chinatown is really a superlative synthesis of classical scoring practices and modernist techniques.

 

Moreover and perhaps more interestingly, regarding "film noir stylings": 

 

"Descriptive accounts of the noir style tend to be highly generalized-highlighting sets of features which are by no means specific to film noir.  It is doubtful that one could convincingly show that noir is actually characterized by a unified body of stylistics-rather...what is referred to as the noir style tends to be a more disparate series of stylistic markings which can be seen as noir when they occur in conjunction with sets of narrative and thematic conventions and narrational processes.  In isolation or even when combined together [these elements] are not specific to the film noir, nor to the crime film, nor even to 1940s cinema." (p.19)

-Krutnik, Frank In a Lonely Street: Film Noir, Genre, Masculinity (2006)

[Thor 7,493]

20 hours ago, mxncr12 said:

"Descriptive accounts of the noir style tend to be highly generalized-highlighting sets of features which are by no means specific to film noir.  It is doubtful that one could convincingly show that noir is actually characterized by a unified body of stylistics-rather...what is referred to as the noir style tends to be a more disparate series of stylistic markings which can be seen as noir when they occur in conjunction with sets of narrative and thematic conventions and narrational processes.  In isolation or even when combined together [these elements] are not specific to the film noir, nor to the crime film, nor even to 1940s cinema." (p.19)

-Krutnik, Frank In a Lonely Street: Film Noir, Genre, Masculinity (2006)

 

There isn't anything new in that quote, though -- it basically summarizes the established definitions of what it is, i.e. a style rather than a genre -- applied to various proper genres. Sci fi in BLADE RUNNER, old-school gangster/detective genre like CHINATOWN or L.A. CONFIDENTIAL or contemporary thrillers like THE NEON DEMON. Some of it has to do with the audiovisual expression (chiarroscuro lighting, smoke, shadow plays etc.) and some of it has to do with narrative components (femme fatale, troubled protagonist, the fatal 'hamartia' etc.).

 

The esteemed David Bordwell even suggests it is neither genre NOR style:

We inherit a category constructed ex post facto out of a perceived resemblance between continental crime melodramas and a few Hollywood productions. As a result, ‘film noir’ has functioned not to define a coherent genre or style but to locate in several American films a challenge to dominant values (Bordwell et al. 1985: 74)

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

On 22/07/2016 at 7:58 PM, Alexcremers said:

 

Well, I do. 'Influence' is what has inspired almost everything ever created. It has been the driving force of every artist that has ever lived. 

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

 

Agreed, but all I know is that I like "Chinatown". I haven't a clucking foo if  it's influential. I guess it must be, because it sounds a bit like " LA Confidential ".

[Koray Savas 2,251]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

 

There isn't anything new in that quote, though -- it basically summarizes the established definitions of what it is, i.e. a style rather than a genre -- applied to various proper genres. Sci fi in BLADE RUNNER, old-school gangster/detective genre like CHINATOWN or L.A. CONFIDENTIAL or contemporary thrillers like THE NEON DEMON. Some of it has to do with the audiovisual expression (chiarroscuro lighting, smoke, shadow plays etc.) and some of it has to do with narrative components (femme fatale, troubled protagonist, the fatal 'hamartia' etc.).

 

The esteemed David Bordwell even suggests it is neither genre NOR style:

We inherit a category constructed ex post facto out of a perceived resemblance between continental crime melodramas and a few Hollywood productions. As a result, ‘film noir’ has functioned not to define a coherent genre or style but to locate in several American films a challenge to dominant values (Bordwell et al. 1985: 74)

This. It's about archetypes. It's why something like Drive could be considered a western.