How would you convince someone that John Williams is the best film composer of all time?

[Biodome 714]

I had to actually do it using just 4 works of music: http://www.debate.org/debates/The-Best-Film-Composer-Of-All-Time/1/
Apparently, it didn't work so well, as I got beat by James Newton Howard (Well, at least it wasn't Hans Zimmer )

Still, if you were in this sort of debate, which 4 works would you choose and why? What would be your strategy to convince the audience?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

I wouldn't.  A person could only believe such a thing through their own experience, not someone else's arguments.  

[Jay 37,285]

2 minutes ago, TheWhiteRider said:

I wouldn't.  A person could only believe such a thing through their own experience, not someone else's arguments.  

 

This.

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

[Incanus 5,713]

I suggest brainwashing of some kind.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

7 minutes ago, Incanus said:

I suggest brainwashing of some kind.

 

Paging hornist!

[Will 2,215]

A much more important question in regards to my life would be, "How would you convince someone that John Williams is on the same level, or at least a similar one, as the greats of centuries past?" Many family members of mine are firmly entrenched in "traditional" orchestral music (often all just referred to as classical music) and the most they will ever allow is, "Williams is a great FILM composer." Not simply a great composer. 

 

As TWR alluded to, it's probably not possible to convince anyone that they should really appreciate certain music through a couple paragraphs or a few cues.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Well, now this is something that I reckon many of us here can and will enthusiastically aid you in - explaining to your family why they're very wrong.  Such pretensions, where they still persist, are cheating the grave.

[Biodome 714]

14 minutes ago, Will said:

Many family members of mine are firmly entrenched in "traditional" orchestral music (often all just referred to as classical music) and the most they will ever allow is, "Williams is a great FILM composer." Not simply a great composer.

I can relate to that. I've talked to a couple of people with interest in classical music about John Williams, who simply couldn't acknowledge that John Williams is a proper composer. I don't really know why people do that. Is it because his compositions sound more modern, or, perhaps, film music is just by default treated as inferior?

 

Personally, I enjoy him as much as many other traditional composers.

[Alex 2,833]

The thing is with John Williams is that the music he produces is from a different era to most modern film composers. Comparing him to someone like Hans Zimmer, for example, is perhaps unfair, since their styles are so different. Would JW have been a good fit for Inception? Would Zimmer have suited Star Wars? Etc. There are so many film composers with such varied styles that I don't think it possible for someone considered "the best".

JW has arguably composed more "memorable" themes than any other film composer, but some argue that he has been influenced too much by classical composers.

The reality is it's personal choice. Music affects people in different ways. I've never been able to fully get into Jerry Goldsmith's music, for example, but I acknowledge his massive contribution to film music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Put a gun to their head and count down from ten!

[publicist 4,643]

1 hour ago, Will said:

A much more important question in regards to my life would be, "How would you convince someone that John Williams is on the same level, or at least a similar one, as the greats of centuries past?"

 

Let a generation pass and we will have forgotten about the ones from centuries past. And as it turns out, your best bet to achieve immortality is to be linked to the most famous movies of all time. 

[Bespin 8,477]

I can whistle only four or five notes of 492 different themes he wrote, and you will recognize - all of them -.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

1 hour ago, Biodome said:

I can relate to that. I've talked to a couple of people with interest in classical music about John Williams, who simply couldn't acknowledge that John Williams is a proper composer. I don't really know why people do that. Is it because his compositions sound more modern, or, perhaps, film music is just by default treated as inferior?

 

Personally, I enjoy him as much as many other traditional composers.

 

One can surmise two possibilities for your and Will's situation.  The first is that the people you're talking about are extremely knowledgeable on the subject, but are sadly infected by a vapid elitism which causes them to turn their noses up at film music.  The second is that these people aren't in fact all that knowledgeable or interested in classical music, but put on a front of cultured-ness, and have latched on to the aforementioned vapid elitism without truly understanding it. 

 

In other words, they're either not as smart as they think they are, or know they're not as smart as they want to appear, and compensate by criticizing an easy target.

 

There is no middle ground on this issue.  There is no room for the usual platitudes about taste and opinions and agreeing to disagree and hurr hurr hurr.  You don't have to like Williams or any other film composer, but there is no excuse for someone of true intelligence to allow themselves to fall into the trap of snubbing an entire art form - one which, beyond any argument, is largely responsible for keeping the core traditions of classical music and the performers thereof relevant, more than the world of classical music itself now is.

[Will 2,215]

3 hours ago, TheWhiteRider said:

 

One can surmise two possibilities for your and Will's situation.  The first is that the people you're talking about are extremely knowledgeable on the subject, but are sadly infected by a vapid elitism which causes them to turn their noses up at film music.  The second is that these people aren't in fact all that knowledgeable or interested in classical music, but put on a front of cultured-ness, and have latched on to the aforementioned vapid elitism without truly understanding it. 

 

It's definitely the first. Some of the people I've talked to (members of my immediate and extended family) have made careers out of music -- and the others grew up with orchestral music as a cornerstone of life. There's a lot of musical knowledge there. Some of those people don't actually directly say anything negative about film music, but I can tell they don't respect it as much as classical music. But one went so far as to call Williams music "junk food" as compared to the "fine meal" of more "traditional" composers.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

The most hateful analogy of them all!

 

Well, they're sadly wrong.  What can be said?

[karelm 2,903]

Many people only know JW's music from the famous themes which they might conclude are too vanilla and plain for those with more sophisticated pallets.  What if you show them some of his range or more subtle/complicated works without  letting them know who the composer is.  Then you go for checkmate.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Again, gun to the head, slow countdown from 10 and whistling his best film themes in between each number!

[Thor 7,465]

 

14 hours ago, TheWhiteRider said:

I wouldn't.  A person could only believe such a thing through their own experience, not someone else's arguments.  

 

Thirded!

[Arpy 4,145]

Would it not just be the same question of convincing non film music listeners that JW is a better composer/musician than [insert pop/other genre artist(s) here] Personal tastes and beliefs won't be moved by four works alone.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,496]

I would sit someone down, and let them listen to the complete score for CE3K. Then I would get them to watch CE3K without music. Then I would get them to watch CE3K with music, and in 70mm

6-track magnetic stereo.

I would then say: "See? That's why he's the best!"

[Will 2,215]

4 hours ago, karelm said:

Many people only know JW's music from the famous themes which they might conclude are too vanilla and plain for those with more sophisticated pallets.  What if you show them some of his range or more subtle/complicated works without  letting them know who the composer is.  Then you go for checkmate.

 

Yep. I think there's a misconception among some JW-shunners that he can only write big booming brass heavy pieces. Which is of course very, very wrong.

 

One issue I see with trying to convince people to respect Williams as one of the best composers of all time is the "grower" effect. If you play them a few Williams cues, it's likely they won't like them and they will stop listening because they say this reinforces their belief that classical music is superior. They'd probably need several listens to appreciate a JW cue, but they might not be willing to give it that many because of the built in lack of respect (they want their opinion that classical music is better to be reinforced, presumably).

 

I should actually listen to classical music a lot more (currently I rarely do) -- it's pretty hypocritical for me to ask classical lovers to appreciate JW music when I don't truly appreciate classical music. The stuff I've heard never moved me like film music but perhaps I need to listen to a piece many times to "get" it (I assume classical compositions are growers too?)

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

42 minutes ago, Will said:

 

I should actually listen to classical music a lot more (currently I rarely do) -- it's pretty hypocritical for me to ask classical lovers to appreciate JW music when I don't truly appreciate classical music. The stuff I've heard never moved me like film music but perhaps I need to listen to a piece many times to "get" it (I assume classical compositions are growers too?)

 

Start here

 

The Classical Music Recommendation Thread

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Start here

 

[Wojo 2,453]

Find yourself the Classical Thunder albums that were released by Time Life, or just assemble playlists accordingly on YouTube or Spotify or whatever. 

[Jilal 569]

Nonononono. Listen to Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Start there!

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Open Wikipedia timeline of composers.  Open Youtube in other tab.  Begin.  

 

And I'm not kidding.  Take advantage of this internet thing.  It presents an unprecedented ability to familiarize yourself with the repertoire of Western music and beyond.  

[Disco Stu 15,495]

In all seriousness, for me the gateway drug was Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto No. 2.  I'm still very much a casual listener of classical music, but that piece took my breath away as wee boy.

[Will 2,215]

2 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Start here

 

 

Listening now....

[karelm 2,903]

Well, you should see the movie...it's one of the best films ever made.  I mean that...the amount of love and care that went into every frame is staggering and that's no exaggeration. 

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

It's... fantastic!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Pity they didnt commission an original score.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I heard Alex North had written one but Disney decided to keep all of his temp music.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

I would sing them "America, the Dream Goes On"

[Disco Stu 15,495]

The lyrics for that damned song literally read like the piece was commissioned for a Republican Convention or some shit.  I mean, holy moley:

 

And the words that we read on the courthouse walls 
Are the words that make us free 
And the more we remember the way we began 
The closer we get to the best we can be 

[Simon McBride 113]

I don't see what's so bad about this song. Maybe a little cringe-worthy in how patriotic it is, but not something bad.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Only in America....

[Disco Stu 15,495]

It rings false.  Hollow.  Gross.  It's the America of Duck Dynasty merchandise and the super sized fast food meal.  It just makes me feel icky.  It crosses the thin line between proud patriotism and obscene jingoism.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

48 minutes ago, karelm said:

Well, you should see the movie...it's one of the best films ever made.  I mean that...the amount of love and care that went into every frame is staggering and that's no exaggeration. 

 

This.

 

The only false note for me is the My Little Pony segment for the Pastoral. Oh, and I miss Deems Taylor's voice.

 

[Will 2,215]

45 minutes ago, Hawmy said:

I don't see what's so bad about this song. Maybe a little cringe-worthy in how patriotic it is, but not something bad.

 

This.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its because you dont live in the civilised world. Such cloying patriotism is uncouth in more developed countries.  

[Will 2,215]

57 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

The lyrics for that damned song literally read like the piece was commissioned for a Republican Convention or some shit.  I mean, holy moley:

 

And the words that we read on the courthouse walls 
Are the words that make us free 
And the more we remember the way we began 
The closer we get to the best we can be 

 

I cannot figure out why so many people seem to have such a problem with the lyrics, such as those. People seem to be jumping to conclusions and seeing the lyrics in the worst light possible.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

44 minutes ago, Sharkus Malarkus said:

 

This.

 

The only false note for me is the My Little Pony segment for the Pastoral. Oh, and I miss Deems Taylor's voice.

 

 

Deems was such a dunce when it came to Mahler though!

[Datameister 2,037]

In response to the original question...I really wouldn't try to convince someone of such a thing. I might share some of Williams' greatest works with an interested newcomer so they can draw their own conclusions, but ultimately, music that affects one person may not affect another the same way.

 

My choices for what music to share with them would depend on their current musical interests. I personally would be persuaded (have been persuaded!) by things like the end sequence of E.T., the battle of Hoth, Binary Sunset, Journey to the Island, Desert Chase, etc.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

4 hours ago, TheWhiteRider said:

 

Deems was such a dunce when it came to Mahler though!

 

And Bruckner, I think.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

14 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

In all seriousness, for me the gateway drug was Rachmaninov's Piano Concerto No. 2.  I'm still very much a casual listener of classical music, but that piece took my breath away as wee boy.

 

Ravel's orchestration of Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition was probably the first longer canonical work I heard that had all the things I loved about my favorite John Williams scores: a memorable recurring theme with different variations, smaller bite-sized pieces with plenty of catchy tunes, cool-sounding track titles like "The Old Castle" and "Catacombs," a variety of emotional colors, musical styles, and orchestration techniques (saxophone in classical music?! ), and a rousing "action" climax into a grand finale, complete with a huge explosive version of the main theme! Add the fact that plenty of film composers have cribbed from it including Williams himself and it felt like home.

 

That was my "classical music is awesome" moment, never stopped from there so I always recommend that to film score fans. And all varieties of program music, reading the liner notes or Wikipedia to get the stories or concepts. One thing I did as a teenager was to get a collection of ballet stories from the library, find the albums and listen imagining them as movies. I found that a fun exercise, gave me exposure and a way in to certain composers and pieces I may have resisted otherwise, coming from a visual learner who fell in love with the orchestra through movie soundtracks. Then eventually I began to appreciate the music on its own terms, without the need for visual associations or stimuli.

[Simon McBride 113]

Not gonna lie, the first classical thing I listened through all the way because I wanted to (I'd been forced to see my sisters in the nutcracker like 5 times) was Rite of Spring. 

[Muad'Dib 1,800]

Damn fine choice.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

It's chock full o' catchy tunes!

 

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....

 

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....

 

mmph uhh (mm) uhh (mm) uhh (mm) mmph uhh (mm) uhh (mm) uhh (mm) mmph

 

....

 

mm bah na na nuh

 

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bah na na nuh