Does The Prophecy from FOTR reference Wagner's Parsifal?

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Does anyone else think, based on sound and also the composer's own words about the score, that the first few notes of the cello line that opens the original prologue from FOTR are a slight nod to the opening of Parsifal, though in this case in a minor harmonic context?  Maybe I'm reaching, it always reminds me of it.

 

 

[Romão 2,274]

I've always loved the first minute or so of that track. Somehow, it really conveys an ancient world to me

[Kühni 485]

The first two minutes of "The Prophecy" (before Gollum comes in) are my most favourite two minutes of film music ever. Yes, it immediately conjures an ancient world and what goes on within it.

 

Glorious, GLORIOUS, stuff.

[Jilal 569]

I really like the Lydian bit in the Symphony version.

[Jay 37,287]

3 minutes ago, Kühni said:

The first two minutes of "The Prophecy" (before Gollum comes in) are my most favourite two minutes of film music ever. Yes, it immediately conjures an ancient world and what goes on within it.

 

Glorious, GLORIOUS, stuff.

 

Do you prefer listening to the OST Prophecy over the Rarities Archive Prologue?

[Kühni 485]

The OST version. Packs more of a wallop. That flowing cello line at 0:21, the first choral crescendo following it, those bits and pieces of themes and motifs, only hinted and hinting at what lies behind them. The stacked Shore chords before "The Power of Mordor" kicks in at 1:28, building, ever building, adding the Mordor Outline until it all culminates in an choral apex of scoregasmic proportions.

 

Yeah, for me, it really doesn't get any better than this.

 

 

[Jay 37,287]

Apologies for not knowing / remembering all the details, but "The Prophecy" on the OST is edited down from a longer recording, right?  Have the edited-out pieces ever appeared anywhere for us to hear?

 

@Faleel?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,287]

I was never sure about that.  Do the waveforms line up?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

No idea.

 

Faleel?

[Kühni 485]

As a visual reminder...

 

http://tinypic.com/r/jsequc/9

[Incanus 5,713]

1 hour ago, BloodBoal said:

No idea.

 

Faleel?

To me it sounds very much that the Prophecy is just an edited down version of the original longer piece.

 

And it is quite awesome piece indeed!

 

I have no idea if it reference Parsifal though.

[Jim Ware 526]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

Apologies for not knowing / remembering all the details, but "The Prophecy" on the OST is edited down from a longer recording, right?  Have the edited-out pieces ever appeared anywhere for us to hear?

 

@Faleel?

 

Yes.  Some of the edited material appears in the Rarities prologue, but the OST version includes some sections (such as the 'Power of Morder' statement mentioned by Christian) that are missing from that.

 

Between the two of them we have most, but not all, of the original prologue.

[Jay 37,287]

So the Rarities version of the Prologue is not one long piece, but rather sections of different compositions written for different cuts of the prologue stitched together?  Great.

[Jim Ware 526]

Just now, Jay said:

So the Rarities version of the Prologue is not one long piece, but rather sections of different compositions written for different cuts of the prologue stitched together?  Great.

 

No, it's one piece presented in order but microedited in a few places.

[Jay 37,287]

OK, that statement contradicts your previous post, so I think you need to explain better if that is possible

 

Are you saying maybe that the OST version was a combo edit of some of that particular version of the prologue edited into sections of some other version of the prologue?

[Jim Ware 526]

Both tracks are different edits of the same material.  Each track includes material that the other does not.  The Rarities version presents everything in chronological order, the OST does not.

 

The full unedited composition includes material that is not present on either released track.

[Jay 37,287]

Ohhhhhhh OK, well that is interesting.

So theoretically one could take the bits of the OST version that can't be heard in the Rarities version and insert them back into where they belong, but there would still be missing pieces....

 

So wait, why was the full composition edited for the Rarities release?  Doesn't that contradict the point of an archival bonus disc?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,287]

What makes you think it isn't?

[SafeUnderHill 205]

[Jay 37,287]

Ah I understand what you are saying now, misinterpreted before.

[Faleel 5,339]

I thought that the end of the Ringwraith Theme and the Power of Mordor sounded the same!

Is any of the material from the CR prologue part of the Rarities/OST prologue?

[Incanus 5,713]

All I want to know is why not present the whole alternate Prologue on the Rarities instead of editing it down?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,713]

31 minutes ago, BloodBoal said:

Because they didn't have enough disc space left (the album is about 79 minutes and 30 seconds long).

 

Had it been up to me, I would have removed the Howard Shore interview, which isn't something I'd expect people to listen to over and over again and which could have easily been included in written form in the book, to make room for the complete prologue (and other stuff), but hey, I'm no album producer, so what do I know?

Makes me wonder how much longer would the complete composition have been if it could not be fitted on the album. And I agree, they could have removed those two interview tracks to accommodate more music.

[Jim Ware 526]

There are many different editorial configurations of this material.  The version chosen for the rarities was the preferred presentation at the time.

 

4 minutes ago, Incanus said:

Makes me wonder how much longer would the complete composition have been if it could not be fitted on the album. And I agree, they could have removed those two interview tracks to accommodate more music.

 

It's about the same length as the revised film version.

[Incanus 5,713]

5 minutes ago, Jim Ware said:

There are many different editorial configurations of this material.  The version chosen for the rarities was the preferred presentation at the time.

 

 

It's about the same length as the revised film version.

Thanks Jim. So only about 1 to 1½ minutes' worth of stuff is missing, including the stuff already on the OST.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I've heard that those 1½ unreleased minutes are some of the best film music ever. Much, much better than the first two minutes of The Prophecy.

[Kühni 485]

15 hours ago, Jim Ware said:

The full unedited composition includes material that is not present on either released track.

 

AGAIN?!? Sweet Betsy, this is getting exhausting! 

[Jim Ware 526]

2 hours ago, Incanus said:

Thanks Jim. So only about 1 to 1½ minutes' worth of stuff is missing, including the stuff already on the OST.

 

Less, but still enough to give Christian an aneurysm.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Well, you're all welcome for another thread in which to pine for material.  

[Jim Ware 526]

To bring this back on topic, I suspect that any similarity is coincidental or subconscious on Shore's part.  I'm not that familiar with Parsifal - might give it another listen on my eleven hour flight this Friday!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Totally unrelated but this thread made me revisit the FotR OST. It's been a few months as I usually listen to the CR but it's a damn fine OST. Great flow and lots of great music. I think it gets overshadowed because we have the CR but it's still a great listen as an alternative every now and again. 

[Jay 37,287]

Jim would you be willing to tell us the timestamps within the Rarities track that the various bits of the OST track would go?

[Kühni 485]

The OSTs are very good representations of the full scores, with proper starts, middle parts and endings, that also touch on almost all of the pertinent material.

[Jay 37,287]

Yes all the OSTs are very nice album programs

[Incanus 5,713]

52 minutes ago, Kühni said:

The OSTs are very good representations of the full scores, with proper starts, middle parts and endings, that also touch on almost all of the pertinent material.

I feel that these scores are so layered and woven with such dense and fluid leitmotific technique 70 minute releases do give a quick overview of each score but hardly chart the progress of each musical idea from point A to B to C. As albums they are quite enjoyable with major highlights included but also some really major ones missing as there is such a wealth of material to compile such programmes from.

[Jim Ware 526]

4 hours ago, Jay said:

Jim would you be willing to tell us the timestamps within the Rarities track that the various bits of the OST track would go?

 

Will do, although I suspect that @Fennel Ka has already worked it out! ?

[Jay 37,287]

Awesome, thanks in advance!

[Bilbo 3,709]

1 hour ago, Incanus said:

I feel that these scores are so layered and woven with such dense and fluid leitmotific technique 70 minute releases do give a quick overview of each score but hardly chart the progress of each musical idea from point A to B to C. As albums they are quite enjoyable with major highlights included but also some really major ones missing as there is such a wealth of material to compile such programmes from.

 

I think the FotR one works the best. The others are great but there's something about FotR that flows better. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Its also the one thats (mostly) Chronological.

[Bilbo 3,709]

16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Its also the one thats (mostly) Chronological.

 

That could be a lot of it to be honest. 

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The FOTR OST is OK, but the first half is focused way too much on the Ringwraiths material. I mean, first you have The Shadow Of The Past, and later, back-to-back, you get The Black Rider, followed by At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, then A Knife in the Dark and finally Flight to the Ford, all featuring the Ringwraiths theme in rather similar arrangements. I mean, come on! A better selection of cues from the first half of the film could have been made.

[Jay 37,287]

Heh, I just finished listening to the FOTR OST actually.. .and yea!  That ringwraith material is all great, but it does make the theme seem more important than it ultimately is.  

 

Maybe one day I'll make my own 75 minute OST of my personal highlights

[Incanus 5,713]

8 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

The FOTR OST is OK, but the first half is focused way too much on the Ringwraiths material. I mean, first you have The Shadow Of The Past, and later, back-to-back, you get The Black Rider, followed by At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, then A Knife in the Dark and finally Flight to the Ford, all featuring the Ringwraiths theme in rather similar arrangements. I mean, come on! A better selection of cues from the first half of the film could have been made.

On the other hand with FotR OST we have most of the major Ringwraith sequences with the choir intact (with some edits of course) and mixed to the front and centre.

[Jim Ware 526]

20 hours ago, Jay said:

Jim would you be willing to tell us the timestamps within the Rarities track that the various bits of the OST track would go?

 

Using the Rarities Prologue as a base:

 

1:54 A section has been removed here - it remains unreleased

2:44 Insert 1:28-2:05 of The Prophecy here

4:57 A microedit around here removes a few bars - The Prophecy can be used from the statement of The Pity of Gollum onwards

[Bilbo 3,709]

14 hours ago, BloodBoal said:

The FOTR OST is OK, but the first half is focused way too much on the Ringwraiths material. I mean, first you have The Shadow Of The Past, and later, back-to-back, you get The Black Rider, followed by At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, then A Knife in the Dark and finally Flight to the Ford, all featuring the Ringwraiths theme in rather similar arrangements. I mean, come on! A better selection of cues from the first half of the film could have been made.

 

 

Thats a fair point too. I really enjoy that theme but there are a few cues which could be substituted for them.

 

The ringwraiths were heavily used in the marketing for that film too if I remember correctly considering they disappear half way through and don't really become prominent again until film three.

 

Them leaving Minas Morgul on horseback was a shot that really stood out in my mind on first viewing. 

[Jay 37,287]

1 hour ago, Jim Ware said:

 

Using the Rarities Prologue as a base:

 

1:54 A section has been removed here - it remains unreleased

2:44 Insert 1:28-2:05 of The Prophecy here

4:57 A microedit around here removes a few bars - The Prophecy can be used from the statement of The Pity of Gollum onwards

 

Thanks!

[BloodBoal 7,538]