The Music Of The Lord Of The Rings Films - Doug Adams' Book & Rarities Archive

[Jim Ware 526]

Now that I've actually heard the whole rarities disc, I can safely say that a lot of people will find more than one new favourite.

Like I said to Doug already, I think, personally, some of it shows a door to a whole other level of creativity. The Moria mock-up for instance, or the Arwen's song alternate. On another level, it is interesting to see how the film was originally cut, at least long enough so that a full score was recorded.

But really, Sammath Naur is pure thematic and choral brilliance. I cannot say I have heard every film score out there, but I know that is has to be the greatest choral splendor *I* have ever heard - and that includes the rest of Lord of the Rings.

The little bit of it that is heard in "The End Of All Things" on the OST doesn't do it nearly enough justice. Think bigger, better and longer.

The book itself is gorgeous with all the new pencil drawings, and the tons of score excerpts and manuscripts. For me, this is the best single film score item I've ever seen.

I hope so very much it does well, so more of the likes can be given green light.

PS: Be polite, Doug is watching you

Hmmm, does this mean that the CD contents are.... out there?

Heh. No.

But having said that, the book is shipping. It won't be too long...

[indy4 155]

Here's what it looks like in real life by the way:

(Low quality mobile phone camera indoors snapshot alert)

For some reason, I thought this would be shaped like the Star Wars Vault or the Making of Indiana Jones books. Doesn't matter either way. I cannot wait to get my hands on this!

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

That's Howard Shore's sleeve on the left by the way. :cool:

[Jay 37,304]

I'm hoping I get a chance to hear the rarities disc early, as I won't be buying my physical copy until I am in New York City on October 7th and buy it at the Shore/Adams book signing at Barnes and Noble.

[Joe Brausam 214]

My copy arrived today!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,304]

Joey225 have you listened to the rarities disc yet? If so what are your thoughts?

[paleo 63]

I just received an email telling me that Amazon shipped my book... How did you get yours so early, Joey?

PS: It is currently in Nevada - coming by super saver shipping... Guess I will have it in - October.

[Jay 37,304]

The rarities disc runs 79:41

FOTR: 21:53

TTT: 18:13

ROTK: 29:35

Interviews: 9:33

[Jay 37,304]

1 Prologue: One Ring to Rule Them All (Aternate) 5:58

Awesome, contains the Gondor Theme!

2 The Shire/Hobbits (Mock-up) 2:00

Unusual fast pace!

3 Out From Bree (Theatrical Version and Alternate) 4:04

First 40 seconds I don't immediately place. 0:40-1:57 is the cue as you remember it from the film, ending with the No Breakfast scene. Then there's a crazy lead in to Isengard music, with cool choral work, ends with the very end is similar (identical?) to the alt from the OST (end of At The Sign Of The Prancing Pony)

4 Flight to the Ford (Alternate) 4:04

Mostly the same for a while... until craziness begins at 2:43!! This is unlike anything heard anywhere else in the LOTR scores!!

5 Moria (Mock-up) 1:44

CRAZY! I don't know what scene this was supposed to be for, but its crazy! Sounds like something out of another movie

6 The Fighting Uruk-hai (Alternate) 1:47

YES!! I just knew from watching the film and listening to the CR that there was more to this cue, and that in the film (and on the CR) it joins the cue in the middle of it. Basically the first 0:42 of this should have been added to the track of the same name on the CR. The rest is the same as the first cue in that track from what I can tell, with a clean (but kinda weird) ending

7 The Argonath (Alternate) 2:18

The Gondor Theme version from the podcast! It sounds great, I'd love to see this synced to film

8 Gwenwin in in ("Arwen's Song" Alternate/Mock-up) 2:02

Nice

9 Arwen's Song (Complete) 2:11

Nice when Liv Tyler isn't singing I like the music at the end

10 Emyn Muil (Alternate) 3:23

That choral piece, a small piece of which Shore included on both the OST and the CR (for some reason). Nice to finally have the full piece, it sounds really good. Another one I'd love to see synced to film.

11 The Rohan Fanfare (Mock-up) 3:09

Pretty simliar to other Rohan versions. This mockup sounds the least like a mockup out of all the mockups

12 The Eaves of Fangorn (Alternate) 5:28

Wow! Comes from an early cut of the film were scenes were in a much different order. Goes from Three Hunters music to Isengard music right to Ent (!) music, then what I think is the Merry and Pippin being attacked by the orc music, then powerful Isengard music section with a really cool choir! Ends with something I don't recognize.

13 The Ent Theme (Mock-up) 2:00

Not much to say

14 The Return of the King Trailer 2:35

Ditto, you know what to expect here

15 The Gondor Theme (Mock-up) 2:18

Interesting opening, before getting to the Gondor theme you know and love

16 The Muster of Rohan (Alternate) 6:43

17 The Siege of Gondor (Alternate) 3:13

18 Shieldmaiden of Rohan (Theatrical Version) 2:00

I don't have much to say about these cues, as the middle of ROTK I tend to kind of zone out on, both film and score. So when listening it wasn't immediately apparent to me what was changed from the CRs. I recognized a lot of the same stuff, though I'm sure there are different parts. The Gondor Theme variations in the 3rd track were very cool

19 Sammath Naur (Alternate) 8:53

Wow! Powerful choral work here. This is an alternate to The End Of All Things aka The Crack Of Doom on the CR, and The Eagles. Just driving, powerful chorus the entire time. Its awesome. Probably the highlight of the Rarities disc.

20 Frodo's Song ("Into the West" Alternate/Mock-up) 2:23

Weird is the only word I have for this (and it's not "Use Well The Days", btw)

21 Elanor (Alternate) 1:30

Similar, but then ends with the Fellowship Theme! I prefer the original

22 In Conversation (Part 1) 5:05

Opens with an alternate version of the LOTR logo from the beginning of ROTK

23 In Conversation (Part 2) 4:28

Ends with what I guess is an alternate version of track 20?

Overall a very cool disc. Not a superb listening experience on its own (I'm not sure how many times I'll listen to the mockups and interview), but taking the tracks and putting them into your own edits of the scores will enrich them for sure!

Can't wait to buy the book and hopefully talk to Doug Oct 7 in NYC!

[Henry B 50]

It's really cool how much of a presence the Gondor theme has in the FotR alternates.

[Jay 37,304]

Yea I was so surprised to hear it in the Prologue! I had to make sure I was still on the same track!

I knew to expect it in the Argonath alternate, thanks to the FSM podcast

[Alan 689]

Looks great! Just wish my book would hurry up and ship from Amazon.co.uk

[fommes 153]

You couldn't make an editing guide out of this, would you? An 'ideal' version of the CRs, so to speak, insofar possible.

[Jim Ware 526]

12 The Eaves of Fangorn (Alternate) 5:28

Wow! Comes from an early cut of the film were scenes were in a much different order. Goes from Three Hunters music to Isengard music right to Ent (!) music, then what I think is the Merry and Pippin being attacked by the orc music, then powerful Isengard music section with a really cool choir! Ends with something I don't recognize.

I'm pleased to see that this made the cut - although the material is familiar the assembly of it is so different (and so condensed) compared to the final film. It shows how much the film must have been changing during scoring.

[gkgyver 1,645]

That's Howard Shore's sleeve on the left by the way.

Did you notice the eager young lady to the right of Doug?

[Quintus 5,399]

He'd only paid her for the hour?

[Trent B 337]

12 The Eaves of Fangorn (Alternate) 5:28

Wow! Comes from an early cut of the film were scenes were in a much different order. Goes from Three Hunters music to Isengard music right to Ent (!) music, then what I think is the Merry and Pippin being attacked by the orc music, then powerful Isengard music section with a really cool choir! Ends with something I don't recognize.

I'm pleased to see that this made the cut - although the material is familiar the assembly of it is so different (and so condensed) compared to the final film. It shows how much the film must have been changing during scoring.

That reminds me of how track 3 of Disc 1 for La-La Land's ID-4 is. "Mysto Bridge / Satellite Collision / Destroyers Disengage / Russel Case: Pilot". In the final cut of the film those four cues were swapped around a bit. While on La-La Land's disc they are presented in the order which David Arnold scored them.

[gkgyver 1,645]

He'd only paid her for the hour?

Very funny.

No, while I was in Vienna, I stayed at her place. She met Doug several times, and he offered her to sit beside him. The three of us had a Rarities listening session at the hotel

Jim, do you have an idea why the first two minutes of "The Muster Of Rohan" is marked as an alternate? It's the same as on the OST, isn't it?

[Jim Ware 526]

Jim, do you have an idea why the first two minutes of "The Muster Of Rohan" is marked as an alternate? It's the same as on the OST, isn't it?

It's definitely a different take - it's shorter and has some subtle orchestrational differences.

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

No, while I was in Vienna, I stayed at her place. She met Doug several times, and he offered her to sit beside him.

You were there?

The three of us had a Rarities listening session at the hotel

So that was the mysterious Rarities listening session Doug was tweeting about?

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Unfortunately, the rarities have left me slightly cold. Perhaps 8-9 cues attract me, but the rest don't offer anything that interests me.

The mock-ups are a write-off I'm afraid. They do nothing for me, and sound like one of those cheap 'synth' albums you find in stores.

The RotK trailer is awesome, as is the Prologue, Argonath, Arwen's Song, Emyn Muil, Shieldmaiden of Rohan and Elanor. All of them offer something either more full, or significantly different from the film versions.

But many of the others are either just reordering cues, slightly different orchestration, or are alternates for cues that I never liked that much anyway. Sammath Naur is a bit disappointing after all the hype. The thematic influences in the choir seem subtle, and the pure choir elements of the scores weren't my favourites really.

I'm also very disappointed that they didn't consider the alternate Breaking... important enough to include. Hopefully the blu-ray will present it in higher quality.

It's really nice to have all this, and there are some fine extra cues to add to my set, but the set doesn't make me jump for joy.

[Jay 37,304]

I was slightly annoyed they put 9 minutes of an interview on CD that I could have just read in printed format instead of 9 more minutes of music

[Incanus 5,713]

I found the Rarities Archive to be a very interesting CD of cues that do illuminate the scoring process and not just offer "an extra disc" of new LotR music. Beyond that the disc offers some wonderful new (and previously known) musical moments.

The alternate takes more often than not illustrate how Shore's approach was refined during the scoring process, what gained emphasis or thematic clarity after feedback and collaboration with the film makers and what changes were made to accomodate different cuts of the film etc.

This CD also shows the other side of the coin. Some pieces contain very small changes or additions like the Flight to the Ford alternate. The piece is practically the same as on the CR sans the new (cool btw!)section in the middle. Many fans have been clamoring for more and more music from LotR but I think that most of the recorded takes would be just like this, only less coherent or illuminating. I have no doubt Doug Adams has done a great and arduous job in selecting these pieces for the album and I believe him when he says that Rarities disc presents the most noteworthy alternate material from the films. To include take after take of music which contains perhaps 5 seconds of different material or a slight change in the middle would not be very useful, illuminating or artistically satisfying.

[BraveheartDC 0]

I think that most of the recorded takes would be just like this, only less coherent or illuminating. I have no doubt Doug Adams has done a great and arduous job in selecting these pieces for the album and I believe him when he says that Rarities disc presents the most noteworthy alternate material from the films. To include take after take of music which contains perhaps 5 seconds of different material or a slight change in the middle would not be very useful, illuminating or artistically satisfying.

Agreed. I just don't think there's much more "there" there.

[Jay 37,304]

Yes, I'm sure the CD represents the 70 most interesting minutes of alternate material. I just would have preferred the 80 (or 160!) most interesting minutes

[BraveheartDC 0]

Yes, I'm sure the CD represents the 70 most interesting minutes of alternate material. I just would have preferred the 80 (or 160!) most interesting minutes

Yeah. I think the interviews (like this and those on the Indiana Jones CD's) are a waste of space which could easily be included in liner notes or made available on the internet. They don't add much at all.

We can, however, be thankful there are no trading cards....

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I dont like mock-ups taking space for true pieces of music...

shame this was not a dvd, where mockcups (it s always interesting to hear the 1st versions of the themes) could have been a disc feature, with no need of taking much space...

[gkgyver 1,645]

No, while I was in Vienna, I stayed at her place. She met Doug several times, and he offered her to sit beside him.

You were there?

The three of us had a Rarities listening session at the hotel

So that was the mysterious Rarities listening session Doug was tweeting about?

Yes and yes.

I wasn't at the Symposium, but at the concert rehearsal the next day. We had a cup of coffee with Doug and he offered to play us the whole thing in his room - who would say no there?

I stayed until Saturday, actually.

I think people tend to have way too high expectations after the long wait and countless delays. The mock-ups I find interesting because you can see how the music developed and was then adapted. After all, that is what those mock-ups are supposed to illustrate; I doubt they were included as a stunning listening experience (even though the sound of branches in the Fangorn demo is quite bizarre).

I don't know what you expected; it's not like there would be new themes suddenly popping up everywhere.

I find Sammath Naur to be the most brilliant piece of thematic writing because 1)it completely takes the History theme apart, and 2) it has the Fellowship theme battling the History theme.

I can understand why the alternate Breaking of the Fellowship wasn't included. The disc should mainly consist of things people never heard before, and the BotF isn't one of them.

I do agree that the interview is a bit, well ... it's not really something terribly new to some people. But, you know, the book is also aimed at people who aren't as much into film scoring as we are.

Once you decide to make the rarities disc a part of the book, you have to stay within the concept of the book of illustrating the compositional process - you then can't just assemble a mix of alternate recordings.

However, I still think DVD would have been the better medium. You can hear in the interview that it is a remnant of that concept I think. When Howard Shore says "if you look through the demos for Two Towers ..." you know that originally, it was a much more elaborate concept.

Thinking about it, it's really typical for fans: here you have this brand new, revolutionary book, together with new LOTR music, and they are dissapointed because of their own expectations.

[Henry B 50]

I dont like mock-ups taking space for true pieces of music...

shame this was not a dvd, where mockcups (it s always interesting to hear the 1st versions of the themes) could have been a disc feature, with no need of taking much space...

Let's keep in mind, though, that the mock-ups don't correspond to any recorded tracks. They're our only way for us to hear compositional ideas that never made it to the recording stage.

[Faleel 5,340]

I was slightly annoyed they put 9 minutes of an interview on CD that I could have just read in printed format instead of 9 more minutes of music

isnt there small pieces of unreleased/unused music during the interview?

[gkgyver 1,645]

At the beginning, there is a little alternate for the opening titles of ROTK, and in the end, there is another, like 2 minute long version of Frodo's Song.

However, the music is underneath the talking.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I dont like mock-ups taking space for true pieces of music...

shame this was not a dvd, where mockcups (it s always interesting to hear the 1st versions of the themes) could have been a disc feature, with no need of taking much space...

Let's keep in mind, though, that the mock-ups don't correspond to any recorded tracks. They're our only way for us to hear compositional ideas that never made it to the recording stage.

Yeah that's why it is interesting to have (I would like to have all of them...) but as a nice mp3 quality bonus feature on a DVD...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Cost issue, probably....

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

but a CD-r costs the same as a DVD-r...

[Joe Brausam 214]

Licensing, just because there are no re-use fees doesn't mean that each track won't have it's own licensing fee attached to it.

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

but a CD-r costs the same as a DVD-r...

But they're not CD-Rs and DVD-Rs...

Licensing is an interesting point, too. I don't think there are CDDA royalities to be paid when doing an official CD release, but I think a DVD might cost quite a bit?

[crocodile 7,984]

I thought the decision to release Rarities on CD was based solely on the fact they decided there simply isn't enough interesting material that they'd like to present. Which to me makes perfect sense.

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We have gotten such a staggering amount of music from these film, released in such a short amount of time, and in stunning quality.

I think people who are even now complaining are really sad.....

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

We have gotten such a staggering amount of music from these film, released in such a short amount of time, and in stunning quality.

I think people who are even now complaining are really sad.....

you are not a true Shore's LOTR fan AT ALL

[Richard Penna 3,673]

To be fair (against my earlier post), they have indeed stuck to material that isn't available elsewhere clean.

My disappointment at the lack of alternate Breaking of... is solely due to the compressed sounding fan credits. It would just have been a nice chance to hear it in CD quality (hopefully the blu-ray will correct that).

The abundance of leaked recording sessions is setting expectations too high. I'd love to browse the full sessions for quite a lot of films (including LotR).

I mean no one here can say that they've never bought a score, to find that their favourite cue in the film was an alternate. We all get obsessed with orchestrational details and i find it hard. Just also makes it uber hard for record producers too

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

It's great when williams names one track 'the whatever scene' and the music is from another part of the film and the actual music is unreleased on the CD...

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Indeed. In a world of alternates, rescores and tracking, I don't think it's unreasonable to want material not on even comprehensive releases.

[John Takis 206]

Hi Everyone,

With Doug out galavanting around the globe, I figured I'd step in and try to address a few comments and concerns.

First, a word about "advance reviews" of the Rarities. I realize that people will get what they can get when they can get it, and I'm not one to cast stones. I just want to point out that the Rarities are specifically crafted as a companion to the book. To listen to them before buying and/or reading the book is to get an incomplete -- and potentially misleading -- picture. To discuss them in this context is to discuss a bootleg, and an incomplete product. For a superior experience, I can only recommend buying the book, reading the book, and then listening to the Rarities. I also recommend that you NOT skip the demos and mock-ups, which were carefully selected and placed to be part of the total listening experience. Your tastes may vary, of course -- but that was the artistic intent, so you might want to at least give it a shot. In the meantime, it would be courteous to refrain from open discussion of bootlegged material.

Next, I want to correct a misapprehension about the inclusion of the interview tracks. These did not "bump" any music that would have otherwise been included. On the contrary: without these tracks as a platform, you would NOT have heard any of the alternate opening for "Roots and Beginnings," or the unfinished demo of "Frodo's Song" with Sir James Galway. Things like the alternate recording of "Breaking" are great on their own terms, but didn't fit with the priorities of this album. Doug knew there would be complaints about this ... but as an artist, you have to do what you think best serves the project. In this case, it was felt that it was more important to let the composer's voice be heard directly, without the filter of paper and ink -- and to weave in some fascinating bonuses that there wouldn't otherwise have "fit" with the presentation of material -- than to include content that had already been heard and released in other shapes and forms. "Waste of space" seems a subjective and rather harsh judgment.

Regarding the mock-ups, I'm sorry Luke doesn't view these as "true" pieces of music. They aren't designed to stand alone, however, but to be an integral part of the journey. You cannot fully understand the transition from creative inception to final recorded form without them! Think about all the times we've read about this process without the benefit of hearing ... about Williams plunking out prospective "Close Encounters" themes on the piano for Steven Spielberg. Or performing the two phrases that comprise the "Raiders" march as completely separate pieces, prior to the decision to work them into the same composition. How often have you wished you could have been a fly on the wall when that was being worked out -- a first-hand witness to genius at labor? The LOTR "mock-ups" do just that ... something that is very, VERY rare in this industry, and (to me, at least) incredibly worthwhile and satisfying. If, on the other hand, this opportunity to accompany the composer on his journey of creation doesn't interest you ... well, that's fine ... just don't mistake the ultimate purpose of the album.

The use of a CD instead of a DVD was not a monetary decision, but again relates to the project's artistic priorities. All of the content which the creators felt it was important to include WAS able to fit on the CD. And ultimately, a CD experience is a better reflection of the author's goal: to guide you on a musical journey, rather than drop you into a vast and unwieldy cabinet of curiosities. A DVD "dump" of all the mp3s that could be stuffed onto a disc would have pleased a relatively narrow slice of die-hards. But it would have been joyless and without craft -- an archive in the driest and most technical sense of the term. And it would have overwhelmed the general public, most of whom wouldn't have had the time or inclination to shape a satisfying album out of it all. The current CD can be effortlessly enjoyed as a complementary experience to reading the book. And -- AND -- it still includes all of the most illuminating jewels in the firmament!

Anyway, I know people aren't so much trying to be negative as grappling with their own enormous expectations. Hopefully, this has helped to provide a little context!

[Marian Schedenig 8,175]

Well said.

[Incanus 5,713]

Very well said indeed John.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

i did not want a dvd stocked with mp3s...

i meant a DVD audio with enhanced content, a library (with menus and information) of all the mockups. Synth samples mockups do not need, IMVHO, lossless presentation. Now if it were early versions of the themes recorded with an orchestra that would be something nice to have in the DVD audio part.

But yes, discussing this cd without the book is not true to the work. Nevertheless after years in the making, when there was the project of having two DVDs, let us be slightly dissapointed if in the end we get a nice composing demonstration CD instead of all that was missing from the Complete recordings...

Who knows, maybe in some years (20th anniversary- 10th is unlikely since it is next year, already! )they will make an untimate edition with Threatrical and EE versions of the scores...

BTW, i have to disagree with the 'slap' for talking about the CD in advance.

videogames, books, toys usually are released days ahead of the official release date, even when the official sources want that specific date, some vendors just dont know (or dont care) and they sell it in advance. Nobody talks about those items as bootlegs.

I suppose it is a special case since it is a CD....but i hope that if someone gets the book in advance and talks about info inside it, that is not considered illegal or disrecpectful or 'bootleg talk' to be banned from this forum...

I mean...if we start calling everything a bootleg we are not going to talk about much things...

i hope i do not start an off topic debate here...

[Incanus 5,713]

I guess a film music fan's glass is never half full.

By the way, how much are we still missing from these scores?

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I'm ashamed because i dont know.

And i am complaining...