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Howard Shore's THE LORD OF THE RINGS


Faleel

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7 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I know someone who has a similar problem: he can’t get emotionally involved with the relationship of Arwen and Aragorn, which I can understand: it doesn’t have a lot of setup: it’s just there from the word go. There’s a deleted scene that may have helped with that.

 

I don’t mind as much, because the main themes of this series are family (we don’t see a complete family until the last frame) and same-sex friendships; the romance is kind of disposable.

 

In the Appendixes the story or Aragorn and Arwen is tragic. 

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As it is in the films. But for one to be invested in the tragedy of a relationship, one has to first be invested in the relationship itself.

 

It works well enough for me, but I can understand how someone else might have an issue with it.

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The only problem I have with film Aragorn+Arwen is when they bring in that Arwen's fate is now tied to the Ring nonsense. Yeah, she will probably die eventually but so will anyone else. it's a weird way of saying she's mortal now and that Evenstar necklace glowy thingy fading... this... whatever that dialogue tried to be was probably not the best way to remind the audience of Aragorn's personal stakes.

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It has to tie back to the main conflict of the series (i.e. the war of the ring). Otherwise it would be redundant.

 

Tolkien attributes the death of Finduilas of Amroth to a similar cause, so why not use it to dramatize Arwen and Aragorn's relationship?

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

It has to tie back to the main conflict of the series (i.e. the war of the ring). Otherwise it would be redundant.

 

Tolkien attributes the death of Finduilas of Amroth to a similar cause, so why not use it to dramatize Arwen and Aragorn's relationship?

 

Because it came out of nowhere. Because trying Arwen's fate to the ring was unearned in the films. And because it's lame.

 

And the beat with Aragorn at that point (at this the way they wrote this Aragorn) was that he's supposed to be finally accepting his lineage and becoming who he was born to be. Making the stakes so personal detracts from that. 

 

Along with Sam abandoning Frodo, one of the few missteps in the trilogy.

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1 hour ago, Nick1066 said:

 

 

Along with Sam abandoning Frodo, one of the few missteps in the trilogy.

Yep, Sam would have refused to leave, at the very most following Frodo from a distance

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5 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

 

Because it came out of nowhere. Because trying Arwen's fate to the ring was unearned in the films. And because it's lame.

I think that line about Arwen's fate being tied to the Ring was written as too ambiguous. I am sure the intention of the writers was to say that Arwen's fate would be tied to the result of the War of the Ring, not the Ring itself in some way, if she chose a mortal life. Naturally if Sauron achieved victory there would be no happy future for anyone, including Arwen in Middle-earth.

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I grant you that it comes without much setup, much like everything to do with this relationship. But it is important to tie Arwen back to the main plot, otherwise it all shouldn’t be there in the first place: films shouldn’t have side-plots, they have subplots.

 

As for Sam leaving Frodo - that’s even more vital to the drama. Sam’s relationship with Frodo has to have ups and downs, and at some point it has to be pitted head-on against the temptation of the Ring. That’s exactly what it is. And unlike Arwen’s illness, this does receive set-up: in The Two Towers they fight, and Frodo later points Sting at Sam. When two people are together for such a long time and under such duress, they’ll eventually spar. It happens.

 

I’m sorry, but to me, both arguments amount to little more than “bat dat is not haw it waz in da buk.”

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Both are fine to do for a cinematic adaptation in my book, but slip on small things. With Arwen, it's the ambiguous tied to the Ring stuff which is really hard to comprehend. For Sam/Frodo, I get it, they absolutely had to be separated, Frodo had to go in there alone, but why, oh why did they have Sam actually try and go back? It would have been better without those shots.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

I’m sorry, but to me, both arguments amount to little more than “bat dat is not haw it waz in da buk.”

 

I'm sorry dude, this last bit is one of the more insulting things you've written on here.  I'd hope you had more respect for the people in this thread than this. 

 

Make the case for your own arguments; don't dismiss those of others as "book purism". People have issues with these bits because of their deficiency in terms of CINEMATIC storytelling. If this was about book purism people would object to Arwen's presence altogether.


 

 

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It wasn't meant as an insult. Sorry if it reads as such.

 

But what I mean is that there are book purists and there are book purists. Some want the book to be transferred to the screen as-is. Others would stomach a lot of "changes" as long as they're superficial - shuffling a setpiece from one place in the narrative to another here, removing sections of the source material there, etc - but not much else. Both are book purists.

 

The fact of the matter is, to make a truly good adaptation you need to make changes that go a bit deeper than that, and such changes are always (with this series and otherwise) met with disregard on this board, so I just called out the pattern.

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On 7/22/2018 at 3:31 PM, Chen G. said:

It wasn't meant as an insult. Sorry if it reads as such.

 

But what I mean is that there are book purists and there are book purists. Some want the book to be transferred to the screen as-is. Others would stomach a lot of "changes" as long as they're superficial - shuffling a setpiece from one place in the narrative to another, removing sections of the source material, etc - but not much more. Both are book purists.

 

The fact of the matter is, to make a truly good adaptation you need to make changes that go a bit deeper than that, and such changes are always (with this series and otherwise) met with disregard on this board, so I just called out the pattern.

 

Believe it or not, it's possible to take issue these bits and not be a book purist. Arwen's presence is a "deep change". As are the changes to Faramir's character, Aragorn's character, Sam's character, etc. All are portrayed to one degree or another differently than in the book, in some cases significantly, and no one here takes issues with those things. I think everyone here understands you have to make changes in adapting to the screen. 

 

You're not on Reddit.  

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Is it such a big change, though? Its taken directly from the appendices: as long as its from Tolkien, I'm not going to fuss about where exactly in his body of work its from.

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

Is it such a big change, though? Its taken directly from the appendices: as long as its from Tolkien, I'm not going to fuss where in his body of work its from.

 

Ugh.  You're missing the point. 

 

No one here objects to Arwen being in the movies. It's about tying her fate to that of the ring. No one objects to Sam not acting like a man servant (ala the book). It's about how little sense it makes for him to abandon Frodo IN THE MOVIE.

 

You disagree, fine. Argue those points.  Don't dismiss those who disagree with you as "book purists."  If I said "Alfrid is a stupid character", I assume you'd label me a Hobbit book purist? 

 

 

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The Arwen thing - I understand the issue there. Really, I can see how someone would have an issue with the subplot as a whole.

 

With Sam I think you're off-base. His and Frodo's relationship is strained throughout The Two Towers, so you can't say the seeds of their parting weren't planted much earlier. In fact, as a piece of drama its very well structured, too: it starts with a small disagreement in Emyn Muil (when Frodo decides to unleash Gollum), it escalates to a vocal argument and eventually reaches its lowest point when Frodo sends Sam away, right before resolving itself triumphantly as Sam saves Frodo from Shelob. And while I see @Holko's issue with the specific scene where Sam is shown going down the stairs, to me its perfectly understandable that Sam would feel so dejected at that point that he would start going back.

 

Like I said, its also valuable because it pits Sam and Frodo's friendship head-to-head with the hold of the Ring over Frodo's psyche. This, to me, makes meaningful the destruction of the ring where the juxtaposition of the ring sitting on the lava, glowing, maks it seem like the Ring is calling Frodo down to the fires, and eventually his friendship with Sam prevails over the seduction.

 

 

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I just don't see any version of Sam going back. After a time, he'd stand up, slap himself saying "What are you doing?" and go after his Master. Especially that stupid scene in the film where he sees the breadcrumbs he KNOWS he did not eat and THAT somehow changes his mind? It just doesn't work. If we left him there on the edge crying, and the next time we saw him was his triumphant return, maybe with the hand-into-frame being still ambiguous, it'd work much better. I do agree their separation makes the movie and the drama stronger, but falling down and changing his mind over nothing lessens the character, while finding out he's been defying Frodo's orders and actually following him in order to be able to protect him would strengthen/reinforce it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The Lord Of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring (OST)

 

The best OST for sure. The lack of the Ring Theme was a commonly heard complaint, but knowing know it wasn't even conceived by Shore till quite late in the composition of this score, and tracked in, so the CD lacks that, and its fine. The big statement at the Argonath is great anyway.

The Prophecy is one hell of an opener, truly setting the style of, what would eventually be 6 scores, and much of it wasn't even in the film.

 

The rustic Hobbit music, obvious perhaps, but...warm and cheerful and sweet. Actually, once they leave the Shire the renditions of the Hobbit music become more whistful, sadder. Culminating in The Breaking Of The Fellowship, the single finest film composition of the first decade of this century.

 

The action music, its very particular. Shore doesnt write like Williams or Goldsmith. Yet it's very heavy, laden with mood, not unlike Barry. The Bridge Of Khazad Dum is a hell of an action piece!

 

Enya? Title song? Titanic rip-off! Quite likely. But May It Be is actually a rather lovely song, and her voice is just right for this score. The Aragorn/Arwen bridge stuff is great. 

 

So a perfect OST? Almost. There's a bit too much Ringwraith choir in the early part, which could have been replaced with something more varied. (Aragon kicking ass an Amon Sul).

 

Nevertheless, this remains a stellar album. It flows very well, maybe because its almost completely chronological?

 

Easily my most played Shore/Middle-earth album.

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1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

The Lord Of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring (OST)

 

The best OST for sure. The lack of the Ring Theme was a commonly heard complaint, but knowing know it wasn't even conceived by Shore till quite late in the composition of this score, and tracked in, so the CD lacks that, and its fine. The big statement at the Argonath is great anyway.

The Prophecy is one hell of an opener, truly setting the style of, what would eventually be 6 scores, and much of it wasn't even in the film.

 

The rustic Hobbit music, obvious perhaps, but...warm and cheerful and sweet. Actually, once they leave the Shire the renditions of the Hobbit music become more whistful, sadder. Culminating in The Breaking Of The Fellowship, the single finest film composition of the first decade of this century.

 

The action music, its very particular. Shore doesnt write like Williams or Goldsmith. Yet it's very heavy, laden with mood, not unlike Barry. The Bridge Of Khazad Dum is a hell of an action piece!

 

Enya? Title song? Titanic rip-off! Quite likely. But May It Be is actually a rather lovely song, and her voice is just right for this score. The Aragorn/Arwen bridge stuff is great. 

 

So a perfect OST? Almost. There's a bit too much Ringwraith choir in the early part, which could have been replaced with something more varied. (Aragon kicking ass an Amon Sul).

 

Nevertheless, this remains a stellar album. It flows very well, maybe because its almost completely chronological?

 

Easily my most played Shore/Middle-earth album.

 

Nice post Steef.

 

I can still remember the first time I heard "The Prophecy"...I can even remember where I was standing in my house. I was just blown away, and my imagination was going wild trying to picture the scenes that would accompany the music in the (yet to be released) film.

 

Listening to the soundtrack immediately dispelled any disappointment I had that Horner (who I originally expected to be asked) didn't compose these scores.

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Instead of random bits and pieces, I decided to go through the two CRs I own now one disc a day and write any thoughts cue by cue here. I've been listening to them for 6 years, I'm sure I can get something out, but I don't claim to be any expert, it'll be years before I can confidently pinpoint Evil Times, for example.

 

Fellowship Disc 1:

Spoiler

01 - Prologue: One Ring to Rule Them All

 

I wholeheartedly support the decision to move from the nonthematic choral meanderment that is The Prophecy to the first introduction of Lórien and History of the Ring. It supports the narration well and provides an instant hook into one of the key cultures. Love the way the moody, dark Smeagol and History moves into the Shire soundscape with the last chord.

 

02 - The Shire

 

The first minute could be detached and still counted as part of the Prologue, which thus introduces almost all major themes in the score. As Hobbits are a more close-to-nature rendition of almost stereotypical Englishness, the Celtic influence fits nicely and this is one of the best, completely idyllic presentations of their material.

 

03 - Bag End

 

The tense strings ruin the flow a bit, but are a forebearer of dark things to surface. 

 

04 - Very Old Friends

 

Coincidental Thorin's Theme! After a segment of hobbityness scraped over too much weariness, that woodwind rendition is perfect.

 

05 - Flaming Red Hair

 

I'm a sucker for ethnic instrumentations, and this is really fun.

 

06 - Farewell Dear Bilbo

 

The beginning and end are a bit too over-the-top, perhaps emphasising the childish nature of Hobbits. It's nice when Old Friends references this Firework "motif", though.

 

07 - Keep it Secret, Keep it Safe

 

The breathy quality Shore decided to work in really starts to shine here. This cue is among those I was thinking of when saying these scores could be mistaken for pieces inspired by the books rather than film scores that have to confine to the moods and cuts of a rigidly locked picture as well as a director's personal tastes. The almost drowned choir is really bothering me.

 

08 - A Conspiracy Unmasked

 

The weak Shire material quickly diminishes as dark, big things are in motion. The track may be an editorial mess, but at least the cuts are hidden well. Again, the breathy quality helps with that. Smeagol's presence makes sense, since he's the living example of the Ring's relationship with a Hobbit, he has thematic and narrative relevance.

 

09 - Three is Company

 

The beginning of both The Seduction and The Fellowship, a huge turning point. Short but sweet.

 

10 - The Passing of the Elves

 

The first real taste of Elven culture, may stop the narrative dead and may be a bit long but good to have.

 

11 - Saruman the White

 

Shit's getting real. 3:44 (the timpani entering) is when I almost shed my first tears on the LtP, that's when the reality of the experience overwhelmed me.

 

12 - A Shortcut to Mushrooms

 

I'm flipflopping about the Ringwraiths all the time, whether they're terrifying or terribly goofy and over-the-top. Right now, I love Revelation of the Ringwraiths and the bubbling evil ancient regality it gives them. It's mostly used in a bombastic form when they provide a real, tangible threat, after all, the road encounter here is unscored until it's a full-fledged chase.

 

13 - Strider

 

Tense, quiet uneasyness until hell breaks loose, leading into the next track.

 

14 - The Nazgul

 

Strider is yet to earn trust, and the track doesn't let loose until the group is underway, but then... the perfect roadtrip rendition of Fellowship really driven by the rythm. Lay of Lúthien adds great depth.

 

The disc ends in a weird place, not a bad stopping point but not the best, I'd have put everything up to (and maybe including) Orthanc here to give a satisfying, round feel to it. As it is, it's only setup with no payoffs (like introducing Aragorn's motif in Strider and not paying it off with the action rendition in Caverns of Isengard, having a lot of Nazgul material but not paying it off with their temporary defeat at the Bruinen, or starting the journey but not following it through to the first intended stop), it begs you to put Disc 2 in and that's not necessarily the best for a 3-hour set that you can't always just listen through. Two Towers does the disc separation 100% perfectly, but Return of the King again drops the ball with its last disc not having For Frodo, a completely baffling decision.

 

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10 minutes ago, Holko said:

 

I wholeheartedly support the decision to move from the nonthematic choral meanderment that is The Prophecy to the first introduction of Lórien and History of the Ring. It supports the narration well and provides an instant hook into one of the key cultures. Love the way the moody, dark Smeagol and History moves into the Shire soundscape with the last chord.

 

Nonthematic? This is in no way the case.

 

I stopped reading your review straight after this bit.

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OK, what I meant by that is the opening section is mostly unconnected one-off material that never returns.

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Where? If you mean the buildup in the middle that comes back to underscore the Nazguls' entrance to the Siege of Gondor, I meant the opening sections before that, mostly the first 45 seconds.

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That's one of my favourite parts of the score, actually LOL.

 

I certainly prefer The Prophecy to the "cut and paste" approach of the film opening. Especially since that has errors like using the Ringwraith theme for Sauron.

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Next you guys are gonna tell me you prefer the tonal mess in The End of All Things with the unfinished fanfare instead of the final intended (and partly snipped) masterpiece that is The Crack of Doom... :sarcasm:

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I was half joking, but those two are near the same ballpark for me - intriguing, good, very welcome, but cannot live up to the final version.

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3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

What is the Final Version? The one used in the film?

 

What else would it be?

 

I parallelled the middle portion of End of All Things to the original opening known as the Prophecy in that I do enjoy them to an extent as fascinating alternates, but heavily prefer the film versions.

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29 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The film version of the FOTR opening is fine, but it's mostly feels like it was stitched together from bits and pieces of the score shortly before the release of the film because PJ had redone the opening yet again.

 

That's exactly how I feel

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