Listening to Williams' concert works throughout the decades

[Pieter Boelen 740]

2 hours ago, Thor said:

 

Oh, well my personal favourite of his fanfares is "Celebrate Discovery", and my favourite concert work is "Five Sacred Trees", closely followed by the "Elegy for Cello and Orchestra".

Agh, meant to type "recordings"!

 

But those recommendations are good too. Gives me a place to start, as his entire concert works seem a bit.... overwhelming.

[Thor 7,504]

Ah, recordings. Well, just a handful or two of Williams' 60+ concert works have more than one recording. I don't have total overview of all the various versions; as I said, I'm primarily a completist of his compositions. If I have one recording I'm pleased with, that's really enough for me. Others are just bonuses. So I'd probably need to consult Bespin's page or something else to get an overview before I answered such a question.

 

The most-recorded piece is probably the violin or tuba concerto, so there's some to choose from there (I "only" have two of each myself).

[Wojo 2,453]

A completionist of incomplete compositions. 

[Thor 7,504]

I should point out that I have not included concert arrangements in this playlist, of film music pieces that Williams has done throughout the years. So no "Escapades" or "Memoirs of a Geisha" concert suite or whatever. For me, these are all spin-offs of the film music, and so a different beast altogether. I DO include the "Esplanade Overture", but that's because that came first -- before it was adapted as "Meeting in Sicily" in MONSIGNOR.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Do you consider The Unfinished Journey a concert work or film score?

[Thor 7,504]

11 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Do you consider The Unfinished Journey a concert work or film score?

 

That's a tricky one. I did include it (the "American Journey" concert version, not the shoddy-sounding bootleg recording of the original score), but I could just as well have left it out, given my "rules".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I've always considered it a hybrid.

[Thor 7,504]

Yeah, especially because I suspect the images were edited to Williams' compositions. The pieces seem to follow their own, internal logic.

[Tom 4,658]

3 hours ago, Thor said:

 

That's a tricky one. I did include it (the "American Journey" concert version, not the shoddy-sounding bootleg recording of the original score), but I could just as well have left it out, given my "rules".

The "concert version" is just the recorded film score.  Williams does have a four piece concert suite.  Two of the pieces (immigration and civil rights pieces) are modified, particularly the latter, which is extended by a good minute or so. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

When Trump becomes president, Immigration And Civil Rights will be ommited from the piece all together!

[Thor 7,504]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

The "concert version" is just the recorded film score.  Williams does have a four piece concert suite.  Two of the pieces (immigration and civil rights pieces) are modified, particularly the latter, which is extended by a good minute or so. 

 

OK, I admit it. Including it was a "cheat". But I set the rules, so I can break them!

 

I've come to the "Duo Concertante" now, one of the 3-4 pieces I really can't wrap my head around. It's so cold, and the harmonies are so wild and 'insisting', in lack a better word, it becomes grating. Maybe it also has something to do with the fact that I have trouble with the sound of a viola in general.

[Bespin 8,481]

Never heard the Duo Concertante yet. Unfortunately not available on Spotify, or for online purchase.  Too bad.

20 hours ago, Thor said:

I should point out that I have not included concert arrangements in this playlist, of film music pieces that Williams has done throughout the years. So no "Escapades" or "Memoirs of a Geisha" concert suite or whatever. For me, these are all spin-offs of the film music, and so a different beast altogether. I DO include the "Esplanade Overture", but that's because that came first -- before it was adapted as "Meeting in Sicily" in MONSIGNOR.

 

I do include Escapade in the concert works, as it is been retitled, each of the three movements got also a name and it's now intented to be a concerto for alto saxophone & orchestra. It also has been published that way. Now, classical performers record that work witout mentionning the movie. Memoirs of Geisha is indeed a suite from the movie, it has no other name and the movie track names have been kept.

 

I think the rule is to follow what the composer tried to do.

[Thor 7,504]

The names are really irrelevant (to me, anyway); what matters is the music itself and its original source. They could rename a film suite from SABRINA as "Four Donkeys Sit on a Rooftop" and it would still be music from the film in a re-arranged format.

[Bespin 8,481]

@Thor What a lack of respect for the composer.

 

It's like Fiddler on the roof.... I sense that one day JW got tired of hearing people playing "excertps" from Fiddler on the Roof, so he wrote Fantasy on "Fiddler on the Roof" (Cadenza and Variations), containing his own work, he signed it and he published it.  I consider it also a concert work. It's like he did a freeing from Jerry Bock's music. A legacy for the future... and now a very good piece for violinists to play in concerts.

 

And it works, some violinists started to record this piece.

 

Did you hear the recent Perlman's 2016 recording?
 

Fiddler On The Roof [2016 Broadway Cast] (2016, Sony Classical, 4016) John Williams: Fiddler on the Roof variations and Cadenza (performed by Itzhak Perlman, directed by Ted Sperling).

___
JW Discography as a composer – Concert works: http://www.goplanete.com/johnwilliams/music/composer/concert.htm

[TownerFan 4,983]

I don't think anyone should be that dogmatic when it comes to these things. It's like separating everything into watertight containers. Of course there is a difference between music written specifically for film and music for concert hall, so it's right to have distinctions, but it's more a tool to simplify cataloguing than anything else. Williams' concert suites derived from film scores are indeed an example of cross-pollinating categories. And some of them are transformed into something closer to concert music (the 'Escapades', the Geisha Cello suite, but even the original Star Wars symphonic suite, just to name a few), to the point that we can really forget about their film origin and enjoy them as pure music much like a concerto or a symphonic poem.

[Bespin 8,481]

Yes. The important thing is not to determine "where" the music is coming from, but "where" the composer wants it to go.

[Thor 7,504]

I disagree. It's all about origins and where the music comes from. If the music comes from a film (adapted or not), it's in essence a film score. If it's composed inside Williams' head for no other purpose than the music itself, it's a concert piece. That's not to say that an adapted film score piece can't have 'hybrid' qualities -- that's a given -- but I would never include it in the same category. Even if I myself cheated by including "American Journey" (well knowing that I did).

[Bespin 8,481]

Happy the one who knows what's inside the head of John Williams!

[Jay 37,359]

4 hours ago, Bespin said:

Never heard the Duo Concertante yet. Unfortunately not available on Spotify, or for online purchase.  Too bad.

 

It's right here!

 

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/romanulzaretsky

[Thor 7,504]

Through my list now!

 

I must admit that some of the concerti went in one ear and out the other (due to my tinnitus, I have to simultaneously focus on other things -- like being online -- when I listen to music, and that has the unfortunate consequence of losing my musical concentration on occasion), and there was a particularly sluggish stretch when there was the viola concerto, the harp concerto, Young Person's Guide to the Cello, the oboe concerto and La Jolla Quartet in a row -- making the appearance of "Fanfare for Fenway" after that a welcome, extrovert addition.

[Jay 37,359]

So what would you say are your three favorite and three least favorite out of all his concert works?

[Thor 7,504]

32 minutes ago, Jay said:

So what would you say are your three favorite and three least favorite out of all his concert works?

 

Hmmm. Then I would probably need to separate between fanfares and longer concert works. 

 

Top 3 fanfares:

 

1. "Celebrate Discovery"

2. "The Olympic Spirit" (strictly speaking a TV theme, but I'm cheating again! -- can be replaced with "Summon the Heroes" if I had to remove it)

3. "Liberty Fanfare"

 

Top 3 concert works:

 

1. "The Five Sacred Trees"

2. "Elegy for Cello and Orchestra"

3. "The Violin Concerto"

 

I'm leaving "American Journey" out of it this time, but it would be no. 2 if I'd included it.

 

"Worst" 3 fanfares/shorter pieces:

 

1. "America - The Dream Goes On"

2. "Fanfare for Michael Dukakis" (the crappy Democratic Convention performance will have to take some of the blame)

3. "Happy Birthday Variations" (I like this for what it is, but it's basically an arrangement exercise)

 

"Worst" 3 concert works:

 

1. "Duo Concertante for Violin and Viola"

2. "Conversations"

3. "Scherzo for Piano and Orchestra"

 

I haven't properly digested the latter two. The wild modernism is something I have to get used to. I'm hoping -- and thinking -- both will grow on me. It's a shame that Williams' only works for piano (excluding the elusive piano sonata from '51, which no one has ever heard) -- his main instrument, at that  -- are the ones that I have the most issues with.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

6 hours ago, Thor said:

I disagree. It's all about origins and where the music comes from. If the music comes from a film (adapted or not), it's in essence a film score. If it's composed inside Williams' head for no other purpose than the music itself, it's a concert piece. That's not to say that an adapted film score piece can't have 'hybrid' qualities -- that's a given -- but I would never include it in the same category. Even if I myself cheated by including "American Journey" (well knowing that I did).

I personally have three albums: "Concert Works", "Media Works" and "Film Works"

 

"Film" contains everything originally based on a film score, so includes Esplanades and Fiddler on the Roof.

If it is a "unique concert version", then I set John Williams as Composer in the tags.

If it is just a regular re-recording of a film track without any changes, I don't do that.

This way, if I look up the album on my iPod under Composer, then I get only the "special highlights".

But if I do it through "Albums"/"Genres", then I get the entire collection.

 

"Media" and "Concert" is a bit of an arbitrary distinction.

For me, "Media" is generally written to be performed in public for a specific occasion or as a TV Media theme.

This differs from "TV Series" music like Lost in Space, which I group under "Film".

 

The "Concert" album then contains specific concertos and such that were not written for a specific occasion.

I do include "American Journey" here, though perhaps it doesn't quite belong there....

[Thor 7,504]

Everyone has their own way of organizing stuff. Mine is a bit different and less complex than yours. I generally operate with 'film', 'tv', 'concert works' and 'performer (subdivided into piano/arranger/conductor)', which to me is what makes most sense and avoids too many categories. There will always be things that are inbetween or outside altogether, but then I adapt it in somehow.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

1 hour ago, Thor said:

 

"Worst" 3 concert works:

 

1. "Duo Concertante for Violin and Viola"

2. "Conversations"

3. "Scherzo for Piano and Orchestra"

 

 

 

Actually love each one of those.

[Thor 7,504]

Yeah, but then again are there any Williams concert works you DON'T care for, Miguel?

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

There are a few of his shorter celebratory pieces that I can't say I'm a huge fan... Like America, The Dream Goes On, or as you mentioned, the Fanfare for Dukakis -- though that one is not helped by the somewhat lacking performance...

[Thor 7,504]

"Somewhat lacking" is putting it mildly. I'd be curious to see it performed at least halfway decently, although the piece itself doesn't sound very strong to me -- even if I look past the performance.

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

I kind of like some of the ideas on it, some just sound odd, but again, it may be because of the performance. Maybe with a full orchestra, it comes alive as something a lot more interesting.

[Thor 7,504]

We can always hope it gets a recording at some point (then obviously under a different name). Nothing wrong with hope.  

[Miguel Andrade 1,263]

Yeah, I've always wondered if this one would ever get a new life, if Williams would change the name.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

'Murica: The Nightmare Continues!

[Thor 7,504]

I'm now toying with the idea of going through all of Williams film scores by year. It would certainly take me a few weeks, although some are easily run through (for unreleased scores like DADDY-O or I PASSED FOR WHITE etc., I only have 1-2 audio rip tracks). I've done this on a couple of occasions in the past; anyone else done the same?