Michael Giacchino's Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016) - 2022 Expanded Edition now available

[Alan 689]

Just now, Bilbo Skywalker said:

 

And the director of those Potter films obviously had no impact on that. 

 

That's true. Williams produced dull dirge when directed by Lucas on the prequels...oh, wait...

 

Are we letting composers off the hook for coming up with music that is lacking by blaming directors now? Directors can tamper with the music sure and it can end up sounding like an edited mess but uninteresting writing is just that. Desplat was doing a very good impression of a Remote Control style composer with his Potter scores and if replacing him with Giacchino avoids that sound infecting Star Wars I'm all for it.

[Brónach 1,302]

My curiosity for this movie is now gone.

[mrbellamy 6,278]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Is that true?

 

There was a prevalent new theme in Part 1 that doubled for Voldemort and the Death Eaters and then didn't show up at all in Part 2, yeah. I've always found that weird since he reprised nearly all of Part 1's relevant thematic material in the finale, but for some reason gave up on any kind of identity for the villains in the big Good vs Evil battle...

 

But thematic consistency in HP officially accumulated into approximately nothing somewhere in Hooper's tenure and Desplat's Voldy theme was about the fifth one in the series so it's not like it would have made a difference at that point. Some of the Part 1 carry-overs are pretty clever and they're all very coherent even if most people wouldn't notice them so I appreciated the effort, anyway. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

1 hour ago, alan1984 said:

 

That's true. Williams produced dull dirge when directed by Lucas on the prequels...oh, wait...

 

Are we letting composers off the hook for coming up with music that is lacking by blaming directors now? Directors can tamper with the music sure and it can end up sounding like an edited mess but uninteresting writing is just that. Desplat was doing a very good impression of a Remote Control style composer with his Potter scores and if replacing him with Giacchino avoids that sound infecting Star Wars I'm all for it.

 

Sounds like you know a lot about making and scoring a film!  Thanks for the insights.  

[Will 2,215]

On 9/17/2016 at 8:09 AM, Score said:

 

"Disney is bound to keep some of Desplat's score, he has been working on this project for more than a year, I do not see how they could do otherwise. In any case, it is a huge surprise and they must be very, very late. It would not surprise me if some heads would eventually fall. It smells like a little sabotage. " 

 

This quote from the article is rather interesting. Obviously they're just speculating, but I hadn't really thought about the possibility that some of Desplat's work could end up in the final film in one way or another. 

 

I'm sure Disney and Giacchino would ideally want an entirely new score, but given the time crunch maybe they'll retain some of Desplat's stuff, who knows -- which would be cool. Although trying to figure out attribution would be really annoying -- Desplat would probably get an "Additional music by" credit and we'd have to basically decide for ourselves who we think wrote what. Some would say it doesn't matter who wrote what but I know it would bother me. I'm still bothered by the TFA second trailer uncertainty (although based on the available information my best guess is that none of the terrific music in the final version of the teaser was JW, even though he wrote and recorded music for it, which I hope leaks someday!). 

[TheUlyssesian 2,477]

On 9/17/2016 at 9:09 AM, Score said:

 

 

Without taking any responsibilities, I try to translate with what I know from French and a bit of help from google-translate (maybe some French-speaking people could improve this):

 

Just one month ago, AD declined the offer to work on a French feature movie alluding to his full-time immersion in the project Rogue One. His involvment seemed total, and nothing would let you think that he would leave the project. "In the middle of a working dinner, he would not stop leaving the table to answer to calls coming from Disney from Los Angeles. It was a huge pressure", confides a source close to the case. Desplat's departure seems all the more abrupt and betrays great turmoil backstage: "On a Star Wars, you just don't change composer three months before the film opens with a snap of fingers, it's unbelievable! Complex contracts were binding both parties ... Either Disney fired him, or he is throwing in the towel because he had enough and does not understand what Disney wants, but there was surely some clash."

Some rumors, here also insistent, show a shift in Rogue One toward a more "light" tone. This would explain the fatigue of the composer, forced to readjust everything at the last minute. "Writing the score, recording, booking a symphony orchestra ... all this takes time. It is impossible to redo everything from scratch!" they tell us.

"Disney is bound to keep some of Desplat's score, he has been working on this project for more than a year, I do not see how they could do otherwise. In any case, it is a huge surprise and they must be very, very late. It would not surprise me if some heads would eventually fall. It smells like a little sabotage. " 

 

 

...is this correct?

 

It definitely seems like he was fired. 

 

And no fired composers DO NOT require a credit. That's a deal that the writers have negotiated in Hollywood. The WGA MANDATES that any writer who initially started a script HAS to get credit even with a page one re-writes and page one re-writes are dime a dozen in Hollywood, also directors altering scripts as they go along.

 

No such clause exists for music ensuring Desplat a credit on Rogue One.

 

What happened is not unusual. The anomaly is that it happened to such a huge project and such a big name composer. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

Since Phil Lord and Chris Miller are directing the Han Solo film, I'm placing my bets on Mark Mothersbaugh being the composer. I am not familiar with his work, but he appears to have scored every one of the directors' movies and TV shows.

[aviazn 273]

25 minutes ago, Manikin Skywalker said:

Since Phil Lord and Chris Miller are directing the Han Solo film, I'm placing my bets on Mark Mothersbaugh being the composer. I am not familiar with his work, but he appears to have scored every one of the directors' movies and TV shows.

I was about to write I didn't think there would be any chance of that happening based on the Mothersbaugh scores I do know, but I just looked up his Wikipedia and saw that he's been tapped for the next Thor movie. What a world we live in.

 

8 hours ago, Will said:

 

Well, he might score it more like this -- which would be awesome:

 

 

Imagine this with some JW themes!

I'm with @publicist. The thin orchestration, the simple harmonic language—this is exactly what I don't want treatments of JW themes to sound like.

 

 

[Will 2,215]

15 hours ago, Manikin Skywalker said:

Since Phil Lord and Chris Miller are directing the Han Solo film, I'm placing my bets on Mark Mothersbaugh being the composer. I am not familiar with his work, but he appears to have scored every one of the directors' movies and TV shows.

 

I've never even heard anything by him.

 

I think if Giacchino's Rogue One is well received he'll do Solo. It's abundantly clear now that a director picking their usual composer buddy probably isn't going to cut it. Higher-ups make the decisions. It seemed like they weren't when Desplat got hired since he was obviously Edwards's pick, but of course it was not to be. This is also the reason there is zero chance Williams won't get to score a SW film he wants to score, no matter who the director is. JW negotiates directly with KK and agreed informally with her to do all three in the sequel trilogy way before the 8 and 9 directors were announced (and presumably those directors were hired around that time). 

 

Lucasfilm/Disney will choose someone well known by the fans.

[mrbellamy 6,278]

13 hours ago, Will said:

It's abundantly clear now that a director picking their usual composer buddy probably isn't going to cut it. Higher-ups make the decisions. It seemed like they weren't when Desplat got hired since he was obviously Edwards's pick, but of course it was not to be.

 

Yeah but it's not like Desplat is some indulgent or controversial choice that a director would have to bend over backwards to defend. He is an incredibly solid, safe, and studio-friendly pick. If he didn't throw in the towel himself and it's also not a mere scheduling conflict but in fact he was fired by Disney, then it would pretty much reek of last-minute desperation to change whatever they can about this project.

 

Put another way, if he was deliberately let go then I think it's more likely a symptom of this movie in general not going well and they're just gambling that a new (familiar) voice will help problem-solve and mediate, as opposed to any sort of thought that Desplat in particular is doing anything too risky. He and Gia are arguably the two most sought-after composers in Hollywood at the moment, it's just as easy/baffling to imagine a scenario where a studio would be scrambling to "fix" a movie and they wind up swapping Giacchino with Desplat instead, if only to have somebody new in the room. It could really be as simple as that.

 

So actually saying all that, it kind of makes me feel like an outright firing is less likely than a mutual parting of the ways, or that they did ultimately run out Desplat's schedule, or that he just quit out of frustration with Disney's requests/demands or in solidarity with Edwards if it's true that he's being bullied out. Or all of the above.

[karelm 2,912]

My issue is that Giacchino, though a fine composer, is not a great spotter.  Herrmann, Goldsmith, Williams were/are all brilliant at it and that is a big part of why their scores get elevated above the others.  They get to the subtext of the scene rather than just the action of the scene.  For example, in Jurassic World, Giacchino might use the Jurassic Park theme where it made no dramatic sense.  Two characters discussing trivial dialog or something but it had a feel of "we need more references to make it feel like Jurassic Park".  Mastery in spotting is unjustly ignored these days.  Goldsmith was so detailed in his spotting.  In Patten, there isn't a single wasted note.  3 hour film with only 30 minutes of score but the music was very well spotted.  JW's equivalent is Saving Private Ryan.  Brilliant spotting.  Here is another fantastic example of JW's very fine spotting:

 

This scene is also an example of extremely good acting, cinematography, lighting, editing, directing, etc.  Yes, spotting decisions aren't made in a vacuum.  They are discussed and debated with the director and creative team but there is clearly a strong opinion of what the music needs to do in that moment to further the story and maybe even explain what is not being said (the subtext).  I have felt Desplat to have a greater awareness of this tool but Giacchino isn't quite there yet.  Maybe he just hasn't had the opportunity and in this film he'll nail in.

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, karelm said:

My issue is that Giacchino, though a fine composer, is not a great spotter.  Herrmann, Goldsmith, Williams were/are all brilliant at it and that is a big part of why their scores get elevated above the others.  They get to the subtext of the scene rather than just the action of the scene.  For example, in Jurassic World, Giacchino might use the Jurassic Park theme where it made no dramatic sense.  Two characters discussing trivial dialog or something but it had a feel of "we need more references to make it feel like Jurassic Park". 

 

I think that might've been Trevorrow or the studio's idea; also think that was just one of many problems with that film.

 

[Quintus 5,399]

On 18/09/2016 at 3:38 PM, Jay said:

 

Starts out with a very nice fugue, actually, but sadly the music doesn't really go anywhere beyond that solid foundational idea. Whenever I think about Giacchino and the problems I have with his ability, it does always boil down to his distinct lack of satisfying dramatic development after laying down a perfectly decent rhythmic or melodic concept. He just seems to tie himself up in undisciplined knots and winds up coming off as directionless and inproficient. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Loert 2,511]

5 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Starts out with a very nice fugue, actually,

 

A fugue in one voice, you mean!

[Quintus 5,399]

That's what I mean - the potential was there in clear sight but he wasted it. Somebody like JW would have built a complex theme around the opening phrase and weaved the whole orchestra into the fugue as he built the musical urgency over the course of the cue, no doubt culminating in a Johnnygasm in the grand finale. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's my pet peeve when it comes to a lot of these nowadays successful composers. Often some very promising ideas that arent followed through.

 

Last week I was on a Horner binge. Loads of long tracks where James slowly, or swiftly builds towards something. The music feeling more like a movement within a larger piece rather then a "cue" underscoring whatever is happening on screen at that very moment.

[publicist 4,643]

Desplat does that, though. Not always (Horner also didn't) but he sure knows how to write dramatically for orchestra.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Certainly latter day Horner had a strong tendency towards that. At times to a fault maybe.

[Quintus 5,399]

28 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

The music feeling more like a movement within a larger piece rather then a "cue" underscoring whatever is happening on screen at that very moment.

 

Largely the domain of Goldsmith and Shore. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ah, the giants!

[mstrox 6,651]

13 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

If he didn't throw in the towel himself and it's also not a mere scheduling conflict but in fact he was fired by Disney, then it would pretty much reek of last-minute desperation to change whatever they can about this project.

 

Isn't it possible that the truth lies in the middle ground.  Maybe the filmmakers (director and/or producers) just weren't happy with the score and how it was working, so they replaced the composer.  Many better composers than Desplat have had scores rejected or replaced in their careers.

[publicist 4,643]

Yeah but they replaced him with Giacchino.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Indeed!

[Quintus 5,399]

It's like going into remission with cancer and then being diagnosed with ebola. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That's a bad deal!

[mstrox 6,651]

I can't get behind that, probably because I still haven't heard any Desplat scores that I've cared for.  For me, they could have replaced him with Zimmer and I'd still have been more excited about the CD.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Zimmer is better then both Desplat and Gia of course.

[publicist 4,643]

Bumbling fool!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not consistently so, for sure. But his best moments far outshine those of the Frenchman and Captain Disney!

[Quintus 5,399]

Based on my admittedly limited experience of Desplat I have to agree. However, I really want Desplat to be of great promise. I just haven't heard it yet.

 

Btw Godzilla was instantly forgotten.  

[mstrox 6,651]

I don't think I'm ready for a Zimmer Star Wars score, but I agree w/ Stefancos generally on this matter.

[publicist 4,643]

Zimmer forever will be limited to his pop/rock/minimalist idioms which are great for certain stuff but i categorically refuse to name him as a viable alternative for an orchestral SW score, at least within the set parameters.

 

Desplat, on the other hand, has written tons of idiomatically varied stuff, most of which JWFan has never heard because it's for french or other esoteric movies and he's up for it, technically. At least he could read and follow a Williams partiture which Hans sure can't and i'm not sure about Giacchino can, either.

[Quintus 5,399]

2 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I don't think I'm ready for a Zimmer Star Wars score

 

God no. 

[Bilbo 3,709]

I will never be ready for Zimmer is Star Wars. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

7 minutes ago, publicist said:

Zimmer forever will be limited to his pop/rock/minimalist idioms which are great for certain stuff but i categorically refuse to name him as a viable alternative for an orchestral SW score, at least within the set parameters.

 

Desplat, on the other hand, has written tons of idiomatically varied stuff, most of which JWFan has never heard because it's for french or other esoteric movies and he's up for it, technically. At least he could read and follow a Williams partiture which Hans sure can't and i'm not sure about Giacchino can, either.

 

Indeed!

[publicist 4,643]

I guess he would produce - on his own terms - a fairly distinctive one but we have enough Zimmer-lite for decades to come so now is just the right time to get real composers back to the front. Gordon would be a dream come true - he names Williams as his favourite, too, and you can hear it - but most importantly, we need new tunesmiths. Hardly anyone who writes well enough for orchestra can get out a good tune nowadays (that doesn't sound like second-hand Hollywood stuff). 

[Jay 37,346]

21 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Based on my admittedly limited experience of Desplat I have to agree. However, I really want Desplat to be of great promise. I just haven't heard it yet.

 

Btw Godzilla was instantly forgotten.  

 

Try Monuments Men

 

 

[publicist 4,643]

Or for typical Hollywood fantasy stuff (at least the first minute):

 

 

[mstrox 6,651]

48 minutes ago, Quintus said:

 

God no. 

 

With the "Star Wars Story" movies, I guarantee we'll see something by Zimmer or in the Zimmer idiom at some point.

[Romão 2,274]

2 hours ago, Quintus said:

 

Starts out with a very nice fugue, actually, but sadly the music doesn't really go anywhere beyond that solid foundational idea. Whenever I think about Giacchino and the problems I have with his ability, it does always boil down to his distinct lack of satisfying dramatic development after laying down a perfectly decent rhythmic or melodic concept. He just seems to tie himself up in undisciplined knots and winds up coming off as directionless and inproficient. 

 Agreed.

 

Take something like The March of the Resistance. On surface, it shares some stylistic similaraties with the Giacchino's piece. But the difference of pedigree is so evident...it's like comparing  a real ice cream with one made out of play doh

[Quintus 5,399]

Or Shark Cage. 

 

51 minutes ago, publicist said:

Gordon would be a dream come true - he names Williams as his favourite, too, and you can hear it 

 

Any chance you can you point me to a cue of his? 

[TownerFan 4,983]

On ‎19‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 3:00 AM, Will said:

 

This quote from the article is rather interesting. Obviously they're just speculating, but I hadn't really thought about the possibility that some of Desplat's work could end up in the final film in one way or another. 

 

I'm sure Disney and Giacchino would ideally want an entirely new score, but given the time crunch maybe they'll retain some of Desplat's stuff, who knows -- which would be cool. Although trying to figure out attribution would be really annoying -- Desplat would probably get an "Additional music by" credit and we'd have to basically decide for ourselves who we think wrote what. Some would say it doesn't matter who wrote what but I know it would bother me. I'm still bothered by the TFA second trailer uncertainty (although based on the available information my best guess is that none of the terrific music in the final version of the teaser was JW, even though he wrote and recorded music for it, which I hope leaks someday!). 

 

I doubt any cue Desplat wrote will end up in the final film in any form, but sometimes those puzzling things happen. A cue written by Mark Isham survived in the final mix of Waterworld (rescored by James Newton Howard). Some source pieces written by Wynton Marsalis were kept in Rosewood (rescored by our own John Williams -- on another oddity level, Williams used the same vocal soloist Shirley Ceasar featured in Marsalis' rejected score, much like James Horner used Tanja Tszarouvska in Troy, who was the same soloist featured in Gabriel Yared's rejected score).

[Jay 37,346]

The Isham music that ended up in the final cut of Waterworld wasn't a score cue, but source music (the music box melody)

[publicist 4,643]

Epic Gordon á la Williams:

 

 

Tense, dissonant Gordon from 04:44 that gets CEOTK after the 8 minute mark

 

In best Williams americana mode:

 

 

[TownerFan 4,983]

Gordon is such a brilliant composer. I love the final cue of Mao's Last Dancer, written in a grand symphonic style with lush romantic themes:

 

 

George Fenton is another accomplished, classically-trained composer able to do Williams-esque writing if the occasion calls for it:

 

Also, Edward Shearmur did a pretty nice John Williams impression in Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (a very George Lucas-styled film):

 

 

However I doubt that either Gordon, Fenton or Shearmur will ever be assigned a Star Wars score.

[Will 2,215]

On 9/19/2016 at 0:46 AM, aviazn said:

I was about to write I didn't think there would be any chance of that happening based on the Mothersbaugh scores I do know, but I just looked up his Wikipedia and saw that he's been tapped for the next Thor movie. What a world we live in.

 

I'm with @publicist. The thin orchestration, the simple harmonic language—this is exactly what I don't want treatments of JW themes to sound like.

 

It doesn't have the orchestrational complexity of a JW cue, certainly. But it gives me a feeling I rarely get when listening to non JW music. It's so exciting and powerful, and fits the scene like a glove. It may be my favorite Giacchino cue. 

[Arpy 4,145]

 

 

 

[Bespin 8,480]

On 16/9/2016 at 0:39 PM, Richard said:

 I do not want to hear The ImperiaI March; that should be kept for JW's scores, only.

 

I don't want to hear any JW theme in Rogue One!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Thats 100% impossible